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August 19, 2010 10:55 PM UTC

Redlining The Ground Zero Mosque?

  • 105 Comments
  • by: Muhammad Ali Hasan

( – promoted by DavidThi808)

My latest article in the Huffington Post, regarding potential Ground Zero Mosque relocation – thank you to HuffPo for publishing it!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…

In an attempt to finesse a haphazard ‘treaty,’ Governor David Paterson, along with Congressman Peter King, are celebrating that the State of New York is prepared to offer developers of the Cordoba House, the Ground Zero Mosque, a parcel of state land, much further away from the World Trade Center area, free of charge, in exchange for their agreement to build their mosque on the state land, far from Ground Zero.

Free land in New York City? Pretty sweet deal, right? Unfortunately, for Paterson and King, they are practicing one of the most bigoted forms of public policy that has greatly hurt America – redlining.

It was around the 60’s, 70’s, and sadly, well into the 80’s that local governments wrestled with the idea of ‘integration.’ After all, the federal government had passed numerous Civil Rights bills, guaranteeing that all people in America, regardless of skin color, religion, or sexual orientation, would be guaranteed the same opportunities – but the broken chain within this fence was municipal policy.

As the jaw of integration sunk its teeth into local laws, municipal governments would proudly talk about the modern housing projects they would build and restore, like Cabrini-Green and Robert Taylor Homes in Chicago or the Roxbury Projects in Boston. And to these municipal leaders, these ‘modern’ apartments in Cabrini-Green would be state-of-the-art and zoned for ‘lower-incomes’ or ‘rent-control,’ meaning that good, ‘hard working’ Americans, could finally find a home, especially disenfranchised minorities. After all, for the municipal government to spend so much money and time in developing these apartments specifically for poor minorities – was this not the height of American compassion?

The result?

Documented cases show mortgage and loan companies often steering African-Americans and minorities into housing projects, concentrating them far from ‘white’ neighborhoods. Once placed in such projects, minority populations were aggressively redlined, with banks denying mortgage and business loans that would help minorities leave, sometimes only on the basis of geography.

But worse is the theory of ‘planned shrinkage’ often discussed by scholar Robert Wallace, who argued that as African-American and minority populations were increasingly concentrated into housing projects, municipal services would suddenly leave, leaving the inhabitants of the projects to their own devices, where sadly, street gangs determined the law of the land, as police forces, public schools, and all forms of government assistance subsided.

So allow us to review – Peter King and David Paterson are suddenly offering a group of minorities (Muslims) a free piece of land – a ‘sweetheart’ deal of compassion – in exchange for their permanently leaving a major business section of Manhattan and never coming back?

America, we have seen this before.

Was it Peter King’s ilk who cut the red ribbons when projects like Cabrini-Green first opened, hailing the low income apartments as a great ‘compromise’ between forced integration and municipal response?

But David Paterson is the one who cannot be figured out? I know he is without vision, but even Governor Paterson should know that he is an African-American? And has it occurred to the Governor that he is attempting to practice a bigoted policy that continues to devastate the African-American community to this day? If Governor Paterson isn’t bigoted against Muslims, then he is certainly a failed student of American History.

And lastly, it is my hope that the developers behind the Cordoba House reject this awful deal. While the minorities of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s were fooled by a compassionate face, the minorities of America today are far too educated to be bamboozled in such a manner – or so I think?

As my favorite, fellow Republican, George W. Bush, would say, “Fool me once? Shame on you. Fool me twice? Shame on me.”

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105 thoughts on “Redlining The Ground Zero Mosque?”

  2. if you would apply the same studious approach to economics that you apply to civil rights I believe you’d drop your sig line.

    Face it, the GOP has abandoned you. Forever.

    1. He’s stretching for analogies, and his don’t work.

      He is trying to divert attention from the real issue-the PR blunders by Muslims and Obama.

      He is trying to use the race card to rally support from American minorities.

      I think Ali’s article will do more harm than good for his cause. It certainly has made me less sympathetic. I was trying to stay out of this dispute, but Ali’s article made realize that I can’t.

      When you don’t have a case, use the race card and call people bigots.

          2. I AM a Christian and I’m not always terribly fond of those who call themselves Christians, nor do I always care to be associated with them.  There are at least as many hateful bigots in the community of those who espouse the name, “Christian,” as there are in the Muslim or any other faith community.  

            I think it’s a HUMAN thing.  We’re all humans, and yet, we all seem to find it pretty easy to hate other humans.

      2. is the faux outrage being ginned up by faux conservatives who’ve long ago given up their principles in favor of winning political power.

        The real problem isn’t that Ali has no case –  in fact he makes his case eloquently and accurately – but rather that Republicans, having so unexpectedly lost power in 2008, have now resorted solely to obstructionism and fear-mongering to advance what must be rapidly becoming their sole agenda: a return to power.  Perhaps if the GOP weren’t so dysfunctional you wouldn’t have this problem, and the right-wing noise machine wouldn’t have to stir up this irrational mess from the obscurity in which it sat until they came along.

    1. And that’s exactly what made his REAL quote MY second favorite Bush quote, after the “a half glass full.”

      Other than that, it’s an interesting and provocative post. Neither political party is distinguishing itself in this matter at this point: both are craven with fear and bigotry.

      I would have had MUCH more respect for Obama had he stuck by his original speech and not given his “wisdom” qualifier. At most, Obama should have said:

      “Look, we as American citizens have the right to like or not like where someone else chooses to build something – but if they own the property and the rules allow it, government not only should but must butt out. And if Glenn Beck and Howard Dean want to pool their money together and buy out these people to have them move someplace else, this is America: they’re free to do so.”

      I have lived in Manhattan. This community center is TWO BLOCKS away from Ground Zero. That is a huge distance away, in the Manhattan scheme of things. It is a former Burlington Coat Factory, for crying out loud. There are strip clubs closer to Ground Zero than this facility.

      People are being given the ridiculous idea from panderers like Newt “Cheat on My Cancer-Stricken Wife” Gingrich and Sarah “I Quit My Only Serious Job” Palin that there’s going to be a huge mosque with a statute of Osama Bin Laden thumbing his nose at Ground Zero. No wonder they’re intolerant: they’re being whipped into a froth by these opportunistic, shameless, cynical celebrities. And wimps like Howard Dean and Harry Reid aren’t helping.

      I’m not sure the redlining analogy is entirely apropos. But Mr. Hasan is right for condemning that sleazy pol Paterson and his ilk for an entirely inappropriate use of state funds.

  5. This country rebuilt Germany, trbuilt Japan, does major business with which it fought a tough war with in Korea.

    Scapegoating Muslims, and undocumented workers is wrong.

    This country stands for liberty and justice for all. We need to make sure we live up to the pledge.

  6. What is the problem with relocating a place for a Mosque to make “Peace?”

    Else, I venture to say, this controversy, for what ever reason is being “politicized.”

    At least be sensitive to those issues.

    Live by PC die by PC, respect and be respected.

    1. Spend your own money, pool it together with Glenn Beck’s and Bill O’Reilly’s millions, and buy these folks out to have them move someplace else. I’m sure they have their price.

      Just don’t use MY government and MY tax dollars to fund YOUR bigotry, xenophobia, hate and fear.

    2. What would be wrong with relocating a Christian church because someone nearby found it “offensive?”  

      The government has no vested interest in interfering with the rights of any faith community, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, whatever.  That’s what that whole “Esbtablishment Clause” thingy is all about.  

    1. Freedom of religion. Property rights. Compliance with zoning. If there is a problem whoever has it will just have to learn to deal with it.  I thought you considered yourself to be a Libertarian, Barron. Maybe I’m not remembering correctly.  

      1. This is not a First Amendment issue. Everyone agrees that the Muslims have the right to build when and wherever.

        Unfortunately, I don’t think the Muslims are winning friends or influencing people.

        They’re launching an assault on Americans with a misguided PR prank, and they’re losing in the court of public opinion.

        They’ve also sucked in President Obama and Nancy Pelosi at a pretty good time in the election season for the Republicans.

        Savvy folks, don’t you think? Politico reports Democrats are very upset with the President for meddling  and making them look bad to voters. Note that the senators from NY have been very quiet about this dispute. That should tell you something.

        That the Muslims have abandoned their relatively low profile and painted big red targets on their backs only means more divisiveness for America. That makes me sad.  

        1. Don – Kirsten Gillibrand, to her good credit, has publicly stated that she supports the project, as well as Cuomo, despite both facing elections

          According to latest polling, both are crushing their GOP opponents

          Helps to do research before talking, don’t it?  

              1. Don – the whole point here is that Chris Christie won liberal New Jersey and Scott Brown won liberal Massachusetts, all within this last year

                The fact that Cuomo and Gillibrand’s opponents can barely break 30% demonstrates that whatever goodwill the GOP had, during the Brown-Christie wins, is now completely GONE, due to racist 1070, homophobic Prop8 and bigoted opposition to the NYC Mosque

                France, Denmark, and the Netherlands all have institutionalized, bigoted laws specifically against Muslims – perhaps you should ‘go back to where you came from (Europe)’ and move back there, Don – your Islamaphobia will have a much more willing audience  

            1. not to tell other people what they should or shouldn’t do as long as what they wish to do is perfectly legal and within their rights. You are entitled to your opinion of their judgement but you are not entitled to demand they alter their behavior to conform with your opinion of their judgement.  You only get to alter your own behavior on the basis of your own judgement.  

              I, for one, don’t agree with your judgment of what constitutes common sense in this situation at all. So I’ll go with what’s legal and guaranteed to all by our constitution and leave your idea of common sense and mine out of it.

        3. If this is indeed a political move, the only thing I see is an attempt to gain more acceptance from Americans as a whole. Remind (or more appropriately, teach) people that Islam is not to blame for 9/11, any more than Christianity is to blame for abortion clinic bombings and KKK lynchings.

          It’s interesting that you think that asserting one’s self equals “paint[ing] big red targets on their backs.” That reveals where your heart is, and always has been.

          I find it interesting that conservatives are suddenly saying “use your rights sensibly” in this debate. It sounds an awful lot like “know your place,” doesn’t it?

          1. Many agree that the plan to put a victory mosque on hallowed ground near the former World Trade Center is meant to be a teachable moment. So far, the polls show it’s working among the out-of-touch media and political class elites, but not across America.

            Indeed, I’ve read that there are protests in front of mosques around the country. What people are choosing to learn is that the political class is arrogantly telling them what to think and say. Americans are using the Internet to brief themselves, and they apprently  don’t like what they’re learning.

            The Sunday talk shows tried to “educate” Americans and probably ticked of more people than they educated. The pitches  were so blatantly obnoxious to thinking Americans. For many Christians, I think, this isn’t about American intolerance, it’s about the intolerance and the hate many American Muslims seem to feel about “infidels.”

            Remember, this dispute is a “Godsend” for Christian and Muslim preachers who love to rally their flocks by preaching against the “enemy”. It’s so easy to demonize infidels and non believers.

            I bet that when they passed the plate, they raised a lot of money this weekend.

             

            1. …freeing people from slavery wasn’t popular either, Don…

              …but it took brave men and women to point out that what we were doing was a violation of the Constitution

              I love America because we are ruled by a beautifully written Constitution, not paranoid, public opinion…

            2. You correctly pointed out:

              It’s so easy to demonize …

              And you proceeded to demonstrate just how easy it is:

              … it’s about the intolerance and the hate many American Muslims seem to feel about “infidels.”

              and

              … put a victory mosque on hallowed ground …

              So, you are right … something is backfiring.

                1. apologize. Just stop demonizing those that are different from you. And don’t concern troll 2 minutes and 17 seconds after “apologizing.”

                  You might even consider re-reading this diary, and subsequent posts, and replace Muslim with some other group name you are more sympathetic towards. Maybe even a group name you are a member of.

        4. Everyone agrees that the Muslims have the right to build when and wherever.

            there are many, many people trying to deny full Free Exercise of Religion rights to the Muslims in America.  You are giving aid and comfort to them.

             Maybe the solution is to legally declare that Muslims are 60 percent of a citizen?  Is that the kind of compromise you support?  It worked so well for slavery.

            I’m so sorry it “makes you sad”: that

          Muslims have abandoned their relatively low profile

          and begun to act like first class citizens.  

            It makes me sad that bigots like you are offended by the U.S. Constitution.

          1. If that works for you, ok.

            I’m discussing the political problems that the NYC Muslims who are trying to raise money to build this thing are creating for themselves. If they don’t want to listen, and it’s pretty obvious that the don’t, that is their business.

            1. To borrow from the Daily Show.  Is the offense of the majority enough to force (through creating difficulty or whatever) a minority to abandon their rights?  How is that ‘American’ (or, put differently, how is that not UnAmerican?).  

              The GOP spin that ‘of course its legal but offensive’ is just window dressing on their orchestrated, intentional campaign of hate, all to rile up their Neanderthal base at the expense of real American values and the expense of real people’s lives and well-being.  Its despicable, it’s disgusting, and–according to my beliefs–very ‘unChristian.’  And it’s not just NYC.

              “Pastor Bill Rench, whose Calvary Baptist Church sits just across the cul de sac from the mosque site, says Islam and Christianity are like “oil and water” and that Islam is “intolerant at its core”. He argues that …when Islam becomes dominant in a society, “you also see a repression of freedom of speech and religious expression.”

               

              The irony of the ‘good’ pastor’s position hurts.

              http://www.time.com/time/natio…

  8. not about your piece, but odd that this term hasn’t been applied to the deal yet.  

    Isn’t that what this “deal” really amounts to?

    Lest we forget, 30%+ favored putting Muslims in “camps” after 9/11.  Ali is right to ask whether this is any different.

  9. the cultural center/mosque went through that process months ago and this was approved by local officials. The rest of the country ought to respect the rights and responsibilities of NY to follow all applicable laws and make decisions about buildings within the confines of NY.

  11. but:

    “After all, the federal government had passed numerous Civil Rights bills, guaranteeing that all people in America, regardless of skin color, religion, or sexual orientation…”

    There is no federal law prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation.

  12. Regardless of the wisdom of building such a project there, it won’t be an issue if they cannot find the workers to build it.

    From the New York Daily News


    A growing number of New York construction workers are vowing not to work on the mosque planned near Ground Zero.

    “It’s a very touchy thing because they want to do this on sacred ground,” said Dave Kaiser, 38, a blaster who is working to rebuild the World Trade Center site.

    “It’s a very difficult dilemma for the contractors and the organized labor force because we are experiencing such high levels of unemployment,” he said. “Yet at the same time, this is a very sacred sight to the union guys.”

    “There were construction workers killed on 9/11 and many more who got horribly sick cleaning up Ground Zero,” Coletti said. “It’s very emotional.”

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_…

    If the New York workers won’t build the project, I suspect that there would be mass outrage in importing foreign workers to complete it.

    While I do agree that they have the right to build the Mosque and Community center there, I don’t believe it is a wise decision to do so.  The simple fact is that many Americans will see this as a shrine to the terrorists who committed the acts.  On top of that, the radical sect of the Islamic faith will, IMHO, do so as well.

    Just my simple minded thoughts on that issue.

          1. because it already exists at 20 Warren, NYC NY 10007

            As The President said, he never commented on the smartness of this Cordoba House placement; most of us agree they have the right to build … it is not in question.

            Here is a solution … the Cordoba House people can financially get together with Team Mizel and do a combined Masjid-Temple and combine it with a C.E.L.L.-East. This could  all be incorporated within the proposed Cordoba development. How’s that for some religious togetherness?

    2. The way you guys are demonizing this thing, of course it’ll be seen as a “shrine to the terrorists.” And you’ll be reponsible for making it that.

    3. would happily earn union scale while defending the First Amendment’s guarantee of freedom of religion, Raiders.  

       I earned a lot less than minimum wage when I took my oath to defend the constitution as a member of the U.S. Army.  But I was proud to take it, and know many good Americans will do so.  Nobody should be required to do that work, of course.  But I’m sure we can find a few hundred patriots in a city as big as New York who will stand up to the bigots.  And if not, of course we should import them from Mexico.

  13. I don’t get how people can proudly say that they stand for freedom and tolerance and be offended at the prospect of this community center at the same time.

  14. GW never got so far as the shame on me part.  He got confused and had to give it up after the first part, skipping to “we can’t get fooled again”  But it is what he was going for.

    Agree that there is no reason for Cordoba House to take this deal. Those whose sensibilities were offended by the idea of African Americans being admitted to public schools, pools and restaurants just had to get used it. So did those who lived in suburbs that didn’t allow Jews.  That African Americans and Jews don’t all get this is very disappointing to me. ADL doesn’t but at least JStreet does.

    Unfortunately you are going to get even less support on this from your own party than you would from mine. Congrats on getting this pubished even if it had to be at that nasty liberal Huffpost where most of your R friends will never see it. You’ll have to e-mail it to them.

    1. Several commentators on Fox News actually praised President Obama’s original remarks on this one.

      There are craven cowards and fearmongering bigots in both political parties on this issue. There are also people who still believe in freedom of religion and speech on both sides as well.

        1. BlueCat –

          Unfortunately you are going to get even less support on this from your own party than you would from mine. Congrats on getting this pubished even if it had to be at that nasty liberal Huffpost where most of your R friends will never see it. You’ll have to e-mail it to them.

          My point actually wasn’t for Republicans to see this – rather, I wanted it in the public sphere so the people behind the Cordoba Project would see it and be able to reference redlining – once it becomes clear they aren’t taking the deal, they’ll need an intellectual argument to back up their point

          Fortunately, the article was linked today on the Cordoba/Park51 twitter, so I think they got it 😉

      2. both sides of the aisle on this issue (which ought to be a non-issue) but it certainly is much harder to find R support on this one.

        R Attorney Ted Olsen, whose wife died on 9/11, is a strong supporter but he probably isn’t too popular with the base right now as he has also partnered with his Bush v Gore opponent, David Boies, to take Prop 8 to court. Howard Dean has shocked many of his own supporters by weighing in against. Don’t think many of us were shocked by Harry Reid wimping out. Nobody is shocked by the parade of prominent R pols and talkers, with a few exceptions, taking the low road or the lower rate of opposition on the left. We’re supposed to hate America and love terrorists and all that, as if that was what this is about.

        Interestingly, While checking out Ali’s piece, I also saw an article in the same Denver section in which Seeme Hasan, a major R contributor, talks about possibly leaving the R party, not just over this but because of this in addition to years of anti-Muslim rhetoric from the right. So I think my observation was fair.  

        1. Just as Obama is publicizing his secret and apparently effective drone and special forces attacks on terrorists, he undermines his drive to prove that he is defending America with this nonsense.

          Never fall in love with a politician. They’ll disappoint you sooner than later.

          2. We’re not only pro-religious freedom, it’s enshrined in our constitution. Allowing people to build churches doesn’t make me pro-Christian. Truth be told I’m not really all that fond of Christianity. Consider myself very lucky to have born into a nice sensible mainly secular Jewish family.  “Tolerating” any religion just makes me an American living as an American in a country with guaranteed religious freedom and a government barred from meddling in religious matters by favoring any religious preferences over any others, including the right not to believe in a damn thing if we don’t want to as long as we obey the law.

            The exception is that nobody who wants to be president is free to not put on some kind of dog and pony show to demonstrate main stream Christian religious beliefs. But that’s a PR thing, not a constitutional requirement. And that’s not directed at Obama who is clearly a Christian.  Not surprised, though, that a mixed race Christian guy made it before a woman or a non-Christian and that he had to fight rumors to the contrary to make it. I don’t expect a Jew, much less a Muslim or Hindu, in White House any time soon.  

            1. To me, this is a debate about common sense and bad PR moves. It’s not about the First Amendment, which we all support, I hope.

              I don’t know Obama’s faith. Only he knows. He knows whether he’s a Christian, a Muslim, a little of both or whether it depends on who he’s talking to.

              What I know is that I and many others don’t take Obama at his word about anything. He’s lost our trust over the last two or three years.

              To say that Obama is clearly a Christian is the DC and NYC party line because they’re afraid of what will happen if a majority of Americans decide that he’s not a Christian but is a Muslim.

              No poll that I know of shows how many Americans care what Obama’s religion is. Presidents of many denominations have served. So why does it matter?

              It matters to some Christians who are horrified that our president may be a non Christian like a significant minority of Americans.

              My thinking is that the mosque dispute would blow over quickly, but the Obama Muslim question will be with us forever. A lot of people on both sides of the question will make a nice living demagoguing this one.

              1. I don’t know Obama’s faith. Only he knows. He knows whether he’s a Christian, a Muslim, a little of both or whether it depends on who he’s talking to.

                WRONG. He is a Christian. Full stop.

                I expect you to come on and apologize for this paragraph and type the words “Obama is a Christian.” If you can’t do that, then you are not a reasonable person.

                  1. Actually, as one of the sites board-certified heathens, I regard you as a pretty good Christian.   I really have no problem with Christians, except for the ones who enjoy burning me at the stake because they disagree with my religious views.  

                    1. .

                      we each run our own race, not in competition but in cooperation.  I don’t know if it’s uniquely Catholic, but our tradition (not in the Bible) teaches that we’re in this together, and as we each work out our own individual “salvation,” there ought to be some overlap outside our own selfish little bubble where we’re helping the brother on the left and the sister on the right to work out theirs, in communion/ common.  

                      So, I guess what I’m getting at, in a round about way, is that if you, Voyageur, will get down on your knees right now and recite such-and-such magic formula, I earn 1,500 indulgence points, which I can “redeem” if I make it to Purgatory.  

                      If you’re sincere, I get double.

                      By-the-bye, at Mass in St. Mary’s Cathedral tonight, downtown Somalia Springs, during the part we call “Prayers of the Faithful,” in which everyone echoes the Cantor, we all prayed for something about respecting other religions.  

                      It sure sounded like our extremely conservative Bishop, who writes or reviews those prayers, was offended that any American Catholic might be opposed to the “Ground Zero Mosque.”  He must know some American history.  

                      .

                      Sorry this is so long.    

                      Finally, as some of the folks who know the Bible really well can cite by chapter and verse, one of the Epistle writers, I think it was Paul, wrote that if someone is doing good works in Jesus’ name, even if he was never one of the recognized Disciples, it’s all good.  

                      In another Letter, IIRC I think it was written that, if a person just calls on Jesus for help, that person is a [Christian.]  [I don’t think that label was in use back when the New Testament was written, was it ?]  

                      I think that some folks who consider themselves non-religious, and who might even deny being Christian, even they could qualify as faithful followers of the Teacher.  Only Someone who knows their heart can make that call.  

                      DJ was NOT saying Obama wasn’t a Christian; he just said that he doesn’t know.  

                      Based on what I’ve heard, including 20+ years of attendance at Christian churches, [Rev. Jeremiah Wright is clearly a Christian,] I know he must be a Christian.  I imagine he must occasionally call on Jesus for help in public prayer, which the TV stations are not gonna show.  If they did, just once, I think that would spike this pernicious discussion.  

                      To me, that qualifies him.  If DJ hasn’t heard the same things I heard, then there’s room for him to ask the question.  

                      The ones that I have a problem with are the ones who confidently deny Obama is a Christian.  How could they possibly know ?

                      .

                    2. or the CS bishop/  Either way, it’s good to hear them speaking out.  As better men than me have observed, anti-

                      Catholicism is perhaps the longest lasting and most obdurate prejudice in America.  Not so long ago, the bigots snarling at the Muslims today were teaching that “The Roman Church” was evil — in our public schools.  

                      It was the pervasive anti-CAtholic bias of public schools that spawned the Catholic school system.  

                        The mackerel snappers, as they were known back in the day, ain’t perfect.  I disagree with their views on women in the priesthood, among other things.  But hey, as long as they don’t try to force me to go along with them, they are entitled to their views and the free exercise of their religion.  That’s what the Constitution says, nine amendments before your beloved X amendment;-)

                3. Why do you take the man at his word?

                  Why should anyone believe anything he says?

                  Why don’t you look at his history of voting “present”?

                  Why do you think you can “look into his eyes” and declare him a saint?

                  I think I know why. You’re trying to brand me a bigot. Everyone knows that’s not true. But that’s ok, you have branded yourself. I hope you like your brand, Aristotle.

                  As I said before, I don’t pretend to know what to believe, but Obama has a lot of people convinced that he’s a Muslim. And I think the number will grow rather than shrink as more people think about it and listen to the elites and their followers protest too much.

                  Most people have one or two answers to any question: Blalck or White. A few will consider Black, White and Gray and some of us look at patterns and say, not sure, maybe but the evidence says so and so.

                  Where are you on this scale of complexity?

                  2. I haven’t labeled you a bigot. But I AM going to label you as an unreasonable person, uninterested in facts that don’t support your world view, if you don’t answer my first paragraph. The only people I’ve encountered who are convinced Obama is Muslim didn’t come by that belief from anything the president has said or done. Maybe you are the first. Maybe you can tell me what it is he’s done that’s made the matter of his Christianity doubtful for you. Can you do that?

                    BTW, I don’t think he’s a good president, let alone a saint. It doesn’t do much for your credibility to paint all his supporters with that brush; some of us support him because he’s the best available option. Certainly better than his predecessor IMO.

                    1. Where it says “first paragraph,” should read “the following question.” As such:

                      I haven’t labeled you a bigot. But I AM going to label you as an unreasonable person, uninterested in facts that don’t support your world view, if you don’t answer the following question. The only people I’ve encountered who are convinced Obama is Muslim didn’t come by that belief from anything the president has said or done. Maybe you are the first. Maybe you can tell me what it is he’s done that’s made the matter of his Christianity doubtful for you. Can you do that?

              2. including Bill Clinton, another President much hated by the right but not for the same reasons,  it was enough for them to say what their religion was and what they said was accepted. Only in Obama’s case has his religion or citizenship been held to be in any doubt for absolutely no valid reason.  Coincidence?  I don’t think so.  

                I think it is a concerted effort to keep your loony base in an uproar, taking advantage of their latent and not so latent racism, bigotry and xenophobia to make this (other than being mixed race) very garden variety Dem out to be not really one of us and a huge threat. It kills you that that didn’t work in 2008 but you cling to the hope that, if you stick with it, it will work in time to help get him out of the White House in 2012. That and a constant program of obstruction to make damn sure nothing good happens for the American people in the meantime.

                If you have more intelligence than a piece of toast you know perfectly well that there are no legitimate grounds for doubt on either issue, no grounds for strongly implying that he tells some people that he is Muslim.  None.  So either you don’t have any more intelligence than a piece of toast or you are a really nasty, slimy piece of work. Guess which I find more likely, Donnie.

            2. .

              To go a step further,

              if it is an inalienable right, then we still have the right to choose our own religion, even if we do break the law. Agreed ?

              .  

              2. those things which can be legislated. However I must agree with a caveat. No right is purely absolute since, after a certain point, one right cannot be absolute without encroaching on another right. I don’t think that if you believed in human sacrifice you would be allowed to break the laws concerning murder in order to exercise your religious freedom.  You know, the whole free speech doesn’t include yelling fire in a crowded theater, one person’s right ends where another’s begin thing.  

                So lets just say that our right to freedom of conscience in matters of spiritual belief is as close to absolute as any of our other inalienable rights, which makes it as extensive as living in a civilized society allows.  My inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness might lead me to want to vaporize a few who post here, for instance, but I’m pretty sure it isn’t quite that absolute or inalienable.  

                Like perfect spheres or perfect anything, perfect rights don’t, strictly speaking, exist in the material world but as ideals we strive to approach as closely as possibly.

                1. .

                  if I beat the other three candidates on the ballot in the contest so see who will represent Colorado’s 5th Congressional District in the 112th Congress,

                  I will work to embed certain values and positions that derive from my religious beliefs into future legislation.  That would apply to the classic “morals” wedge issues, but more broadly, too.  

                  But I will try to persuade my Congressional colleagues to support me on moral or ethical grounds, or because of community standards, not on religious grounds.  

                  .

                  to clarify, I don’t equate freedom of religion with freedom to express religion in contravention of law.

                  .

                  1. though since there is not a shred of evidence to support  less morality among, say, agnostics than among the religious it is my feeling that religion is a way of explaining our moral sense to ourselves, not the source of it.  My reasons, for instance, for not murdering anyone have nothing to do with fear of going to hell if I do and, deep down, I suspect that’s the case for most of my neighbors who  don’t seem to me to be seething with bloodlust kept at bay only by fear of eternal damnation.  Also, for all the talk of superior heartland family values, the bible belt leads in the national divorce rate while the liberal blue allegedly Godless northeast lags.  Nope, I’m definitely not sold on your basic premises.

                    I also think you have missed my point, one to do with the nature of any ideal or absolute in the material world, not with your right to promote what you feel to be right. And, forgive me, but I can’t take seriously the possibility of your succeeding in getting yourself elected to congress, not that CD 5 is likely to go to anyone with whom I’d agree on policy issues anyway. You’d be step up from the bozos I’ve seen serving there so far and I respect your character but it I must consider it a very unlikely eventuality.

                    Best wishes in a general sort of way, Barron and keep fighting for those ACP candidates of yours.  The more of them and the better they do, the better for my team. They could conceivably win us, with assists from Indies and Libertarians, every close election.

          4. Why don’t you go back to blogging on health care, politics, business and investing – and leave civil rights and the constitution alone.

        1. Since 9.11, many Americans have been in fear of a nuclear or other catastrophic attack by al Qaeda. They’re sick of being threatened.

          Is it possible that their current reaction and anger towards all Muslims is a product of that very rational fear?

          Is it possible that people who’ve lost family and friends on 9.11 and in Iraq and Afghanistan finally are showing their outrage?

          Is it possible that the all too superior Left doesn’t get it?

          Or is it possible that the pacifists are just using this emotional outburst as an excuse to bash 60% of Americans?

          At first, I thought this was becoming a disaster for Muslims. Now it’s looking like a catastrophe for the Left.

          1. No, such anger is the product of ignorance. And there’s no excuse for ignorance.

            And I’m tired of people trotting out 9/11 victims like they all believe and feel the same things, and one speaks for all of them. If some of them is ignorant of the fact that a few murderous thugs don’t represent Islam any more than a few abortion clinic bombers or KKK lynchers don’t represent Christianity, their status as victims gives them no excuse, and no pass from criticism.

            Thankfully, not all 9/11 survivors are against the Mosque.

          2. Using your same analysis, you could support putting Japanese in internment camps, and worse.

            So all the talk about “hallowed ground” is a figleaf for you, isn’t it? It doesn’t matter where a mosque is built, does it?

          3. …principles and Constitutional virtues are elements to be thrown away in times of ‘fear’?

            I always thought the whole point of establishing principles was so that you had something to guide you through times of fear and irrational paranoia

          4. (even though I know it’s badly twisted as evidenced by the responses that followed),

            since you’re now at least willing to exclude the obvious distortion that this issue has had anything to do with “hallowed” ground.

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