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December 29, 2005 09:00 AM UTC

Thursday Open Thread

  • by: Colorado Pols

La da da, da da, da da


33 thoughts on “Thursday Open Thread

  1. I think you need some new bloggers to add some fresh content to this site.  How about discussions on upcoming legislation, Amendment 23, Marijuana state ballot initiative, spending of C & D money, the new Fighting Dem candidates, who was Owen’s lover, other ideas?

  2. I agree with NotMe. Can you find someone with some real budget knowledge? I know it’s boring stuff but the chaff around ref C money will be so thick a clear view would be nice. Also, is there a West Slope insider you can find or is the political scene there so right-tilted there is no need to examine it?

  3. Policy:
    1. course of action: a program of actions adopted by a person, group, or government, or the set of principles on which they are based

    2. prudence: shrewdness or prudence, especially in the pursuit of a course of action

  4. Politics:


    1. activities associated with government: the theory and practice of government, especially the activities associated with governing, with obtaining legislative or executive power, or with forming and running organizations connected with government ( takes a singular verb )

    2. political life: political activity as a profession ( takes a singular verb )
    left the law to enter politics

    3. power relationships in specific field: the interrelationships between the people, groups, or organizations in a particular area of life especially insofar as they involve power and influence or conflict ( takes a singular or plural verb )
    the politics of education

    4. calculated advancement: the use of tactics and strategy to gain power in a group or organization ( takes a singular or plural verb )

  5. The lefties are just too funny.  They are dumping lots of time and money into finding anyone who has ever worn a military uniform to join in their  anti-war sniveling.

    I guess they have already forgotten that this same tactic did wonders for John “Reporting for Duty” Kerry.

    A trojan horse is still a trojan horse (even if it looks like a rabbit).

  6. Who says they’re dumping time and money at it?  I know of only one instance where the DCCC has gone out of its way to recruit a candidate specifically for a military record, and they’re getting more than a little grief for doing so.

    Fawcett and Winter both joined up on their own accord, and have no announced competition for the D nod.

    And I don’t get the “trojan horse” thing.  Since when is the President of Be The Change a “trojan horse” for anything from a Dem perspective?

  7. We don’t discuss policy issues at Colorado Pols – only politics.

    So where can one discuss such things?  Has somebody filled the local Policy Wonk blog niche yet?  As a localist throwback myself, I’m annoyed that policy issue debates tend to be national.

  8. I was referring to yesterdays front page Post story “Vets get in races to fight GOP”, which stated “more than 30 Iraq and Persian Gulf War veterans have entered congressional races across the country as Democrats, hoping to capitalize on their military experience to topple incumbent Republican majority.”

    I guess we could assume that the DCCC had nothing to do with their decisions nor had any contact with them whatsoever, but this report certainly fits the democrat anti-war stance and play book.

    As for the trojan horse… you can’t fool the people by putting the same message of Howard Dean, Cindy Sheehan, and Barbara Boxer into a uniformed and visually acceptable package.  It didn’t work for Kerry, it won’t work them.

    So, what your going to say next is “these candidates aren’t anti-war– they just don’t agree with the President on how the war is being conducted.”  My response is: have them, or any democrat, publicly explain how they would have done things differently.  I dare them!

    If the democrats ever put half as much energy into defeating our foreign enemies as they do into  defeating our own President, this will be the safest country on earth.

  9. Glock – you haven’t been listening, then.  I’ve heard dozens of proposals of “how to do things differently” out there, largely from the Democratic side of the aisle.

    As to how they “would have” done things differently:

      Don’t ignore the plans of CENTCOM, the Army War College, and the State Department on the invasion and reconstruction of Iraq.
      Do not ignore CIA reports on the stability of Iraq and the potential for increases in terrorism following an overthrow.
      Do not ignore DOE, INR, CIA, UNMOVIC, IAEA and other agencies foreign and domestic when they tell you your intelligence doesn’t compute.  Especially when their expertise exceeds that of the agencies who are telling you it does.  Similarly, do not believe intelligence sources who have been summarily dismissed as inaccurate in the past (read: INC, Curveball).
      Allow weapons inspectors the extra time they claim they need to finish their investigations, especially when they report positively on co-operation issues.  Seasonal timing was not the factor it was hyped to be – we’ve been there over how many Summers now?
      If you’re going to ignore the CENTCOM and State Department reconstruction plans that already existed, at least *have* a reconstruction plan to replace them.
      Do not rely on an organization that was funded by the US to create PR in support of the overthrow of Iraq, which has no base inside Iraq, as the saviors in a post-overthrow world.
      Listen to your own advice: “I think it’s also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long (U.S. troops) will be involved and when they will be withdrawn.” […] Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is.” — Gov. George W. Bush
      Listen to your own advice (2): “Bombing a sovereign nation for ill-defined reasons with vague objectives undermines the American stature in the world. The international respect and trust for America has diminished every time we casually let the bombs fly. We must stop giving the appearance that our foreign policy is formulated by the Unabomber.” and “There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our overextended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today.” — Rep. Tom DeLay

  10. Phoenix,
    That’s it???  A bunch of Michael Moore bumpersticker soundbites?? Oh please.. 

    America is attacked and you want the United Nations to be in charge of our response.  Yeah, you go run with that issue.

    Again, more evidence that the left cannot and should not be trusted to defend this country.

    Have a Happy New Year!

  11. Ooh!  It’s Michael Moore!  No, it’s not.  It’s mine, thanks, with the exception of the quotes, which are properly attributed (source on quotes was a Nation article, via Google).  And might I add, we were not attacked by Iraq!; we were attacked by al Qaeda agents, operating with official sanction from Afghanistan, and while we were finishing up that operation, our Illustrious Leader diverted $700 million from that battle to Iraq war planning without the approval of Congress.

    So if you were in charge, would you have ignored the people who had already made war and reconstruction plans?  If you were in charge, would you have said “f*** the UN resolution, and f*** what I told Congress about going in as a last resort”?  If you were in charge, might you have considered why it was that our only “intelligence” was coming from what was essentially a front group?

    You’re quick to dismiss my points, but you didn’t exactly provide a great rebuttal.  Given a choice between relying on my suggestions and relying on Bush’s (dishonest, egotistical, and/or purposefully destructive) efforts, I’m thinking a vote for Democrats would have been a Good Thing for our security back in 2000, or at least 2002, and that’s not even getting into domestic security issues or military support.

  12. PR, you really should go out more often. From all the facts, figures, quotes, sound bites, etc that you keep posting one would think you spend every waking moment researching ways to make republicans look bad.
    I’m just a dumb glazier/biker with no more than 12 years of schoolin so I don’t know all yourn big new fangled words and such, but I do know your last two presidential candidates were jokes. Guys like those two used to get beat up where I come from.
    I think Bush really went to war for two reasons. One was to finish the job his pa started and the other was to plain and simple get rid of a murdering bastard. That is it simplified and in my un-educated opinion.
    You and the rest of your liberal fellas will never sway a hick like me.

  13. Gecko

    Chris Mathews was interviewing the director of Fisher House, he said the good news is that the survival rate of the wounded from Iraq is 90%, the bad news is that they are coming back horribly wounded.  The survival rate for Vietnam was about 75%, 304,000 wounded 75,000 amputees, 58,000 killed.  At the time it was one of the most successful survival rates in any American war due to modern heavy lift helicopters. Using the ratios of Vietnam for amputees, it appears that there have been over 4000 amputees so far, I suspect they are much higher.  Even worse, if you’ve ever read the book, “Johnny Got His Gun” there are many that have no arms, legs, eyes, their ear drums have been blown out and their ability to speak may even be impaired or gone.  That is the extreme, but imagine you are without arms, how do you scratch, how do you eat, tie your shoes, how do you do any of the 100’s of things we do with fingers and arms.  Is war such a necessary function of human affairs that it has to exist, has to be something we do when diplomacy fails?  Another ratio to consider is the kill ratio, us and them.  3,000,000 Vietnamese died during the Vietnam war.  The ratio to Americans was 50 to one.  Using the figure of our KIA’s in Iraq, 2,168, the likely number for Iraqi dead is 108,400.  That is a lot of death for a lie.  That also represents 500,000 wounded Iraqis and 120,000 amputees.  According to Tommy Franks we don’t do body counts, it’s a good thing that we don’t, we really have no idea regarding the true cost of war.  Isn’t it high time we did?

  14. The Vietnam war had just ended when my draft # was coming up but I would have gone without question. So why are you comparing Vietnam to Iraq? Wasn’t it a Democratic president that drug us into Vietnam? I don’t get what you are saying except that war sucks. I know that. I have close friends that went and have pictures of dead gooks they killed that they are proud to show.
    I never once said that going to war with Iraq was a good thing. I did say that the past two Democratic presidential candidates were pussies. I for one would rather have a president with a commitment to protecting us than one that wants to hide and hope the bad people go away.
    The part about us going to war for a lie is BS. Just about every senator on both sides was gung ho for this. I have heard the sound bites from Hillary, Kerry, etc speaking about how we had to stop Hussein. But now they say it was a lie. Everything is Bush’s fault.
    Again, I don’t like it anymore than you or anyone else but we are there. Let’s finish the job and not just cut and run like cowards.

  15. Gecko, you ask the question: “Wasn’t it a Democratic president that drug us into Viet Nam.” Actually, it was a Deomcratic president, Harry Truman, that got pissed when the French lost their Indochina colonies at the battle of Dienbiephu. But it was a Republican president, Eisenhower, who actually started the ball rolling for the US to actively participate in the debacle we now refer to as Viet Nam.

  16. That is correct but he didn’t push it to the limits like JFK and the that asshole Johnson. They were the war mongers then and I do believe they were Democrats……..

  17. All I can hear is crickets when something bad is said about Democrats that is true.
    Democrats pushed us into the Vietnam war and you all know it. So all the lefty liberals out there that bash conservatives do indeed have skeletons in their closets too.

  18. Okay, let me put it this way, Gecko. My draft number would have never come up, but, after achieving a B.A., I enlisted voluntarily in the US Army at the tail end of the Viet Nam “police action.” Now, lefty, pinko-fairy, limp-wristed liberal that I am, I have no need to say, “…I would have gone without question…” I did go.

    Two thoughts here: 1) the Democratic presidents after Eisenhower did, indeed, foolishly believe democracy was the great hope and desire of every living soul in Indochina. And, therefore, sent the troops to bring democracy to Viet Nam; 2) Does point one sound familiar? Does point one maybe, just a wee bit echo the jingoism of a certain, um, Republican president who just can’t seem to understand why there are all those “…disassemblers…” out there who seek to discredit his judgement (stupidity) which has cost the lives and limbs of so many Americans? This is not a Democrat vs. Republican issue. This is an issue which reaches deep into the very essence of what this democracy (America) is all about. Sure, someone made the analogy of the china store: You break it, you buy it. Sadly, that’s where we are with Iraq.

  19. Welcome home, George.  It’s amazing how many lefty pinkos are veterans, even more amazing are the number of Republicans who are not.  Gecko, the comparison was made to illustrate the likely casualties among civilians, but we don’t count them, “gooks” or otherwise and every dead Iraqi is an “insurgent”.  You’ve actually made my point for me, little consideration is given to collateral damage, even ours, it’s your us and them mentality.  The wounded and amputees are something not even Hollywood dwells on, not even the dead are honored, much less the wounded.  What you seem to think is macho would probably not qualify you to handle a fire fight, it’s a little different than deer or elk hunting or talking the talk, calling Democratic presidential candidates pussies and framing in terms of cowards and running, don’t quite feed the bulldog, both Gore and Kerry stepped foot in Vietnam, Bush had other priorities. I’ve been in Little Big Horn situations, with nowhere to run and nowhere to hide, fight or die and knowing you are going to die, there are just too many of them this time. NVA Regulars wore green fatigues, green pith helmets with a red star on them, AK-47’s and web gear, they were not only fearless, we were fighting in their country.  Ho Chi Minh came to the United States seeking support against French colonialism, he was asked if he was a member of the communist party, his answer, “Sir, my country is my party” Communist, nationalist, Shia, Sunni, Democrat, Republican, Nazi, neocon, Catholic, Fundamentalist, fascist, capitalist, socialist, all terms used by people who use labels to describe the “enemy”.  I believe in the “Prince of Peace” how about you?

  20. Of lies and war:

    Lie: Iraq purchased aluminum tubes suitable only for refining nuclear material.

    Truth: The DOE, who has the most expertise in the matter, concluded that the tubes were unsuited to use for refining Uranium, and it would take significant effort if it was possible at all to re-mill the tubes for said use.  The DIA should have known what they were, which is exactly what the Iraqis claimed they were: tubes for rockets, to replace Italian rockets that everyone knew they had.

    Lie: Iraq had reconstituted its nuclear program.

    Truth: Rice and Powell had testified not much more than a year prior, that we had effectively contained Hussein’s nuclear and chemical ambitions.  This was backed up by inspectors on the ground not long before we initiated the war.

    Lie: Saddam was in contact with al Qaeda to sell WMDs.

    Truth: The single intelligence report we “relied on”, the meeting in Prague, was verified as false long before the war began.  The backup reasoning, that al Qaeda operated a camp in the Kurdish regions (an anti-Iranian operation, BTW), was in an area where the US had more control than did Saddam.

    Perhaps Bush did want to go in to finish off what his daddy did, or to kill off a brutal dictator, or even to persue the policies set forth by PNAC.  But that’s not what he sold the war on, and if he had to lie to Congress to get his war, then he failed in his duties under the Constitution.

  21. I can understand why you’d choose to emphasize the exceptions, Mike, but the fact is that veterans as a group are considerably more conservative than non-veterans, especially on national resources issues.  You don’t see many American Legion hats at your beloved anti-war rallies.

  22. Mike, I am glad you and George went to Nam. I do thank you. The draft ended just before my card came up. And yes I did have a number. I did not volunteer to go, 18 years old….chasing girls and building houses was all I cared to do then. Plus seeing most of the returning vets were being spat upon by what I call PINKOS made the service most unattractive.
    But don’t even dare accuse me of not being brave. If you do that you are accusing everyone including my father, that was never in a war of being a coward.
    My friends that went to Nam despise the Gooks….yes gooks. Their words, not mine. And they still do. Some are members of motorcycle clubs and some are business men. One has a tri state business and is a member of the Hells Angels. I will listen to what they say over any of you any day.
    I’m sure most everyone that went there came back with a different view on life. Not all have you views though……..
    Oh and the crickets were out last night as I got tired of argueing and turned this stupid box off.

  23. Gecko, Americans are a war loving sort, it is an extension of what some call the sport of God.  No country in the history of man has ever perfected the art of mass killing quite as well as we have.  Our defense related expenditures are in excess of $780 billion a year, I just haven’t figured out what it is we are protecting, what is it in the United States anyone could want?  I don’t live in fear, I can protect my family and I obey the law.  Must be our women, all the oil is gone, lots of coal.  Some say it is our way of life, our freedoms.  The USS Ronald “Raygun” cost about $5 billion, the cost of an LPG tanker is about $155, for the Raygun, you could get about 32 tankers, enough to where all the wasted burnoff could be transported and off loaded in a continuous stream.  Take a look at the NASA “Earth Lights” photo and check out the burnoff, it’s huge.  Anyway, I’m sorry about your racist friends, I married an Asian, she’s a a sweet woman.  I’ll leave you with a few Twain quotes that I find helpful, I’m sure if you really look hard at waht he says, you might find you agree.  About those bikers, Ben Nighthorse was a wing wiping wannabee, watch out for the gravel and keep the shiney side up. 

    Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.
    Mark Twain- “Chronicle of Young Satan”

    Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out…and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel. ..And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for “the universal brotherhood of man”–with his mouth.
    Mark Twain- What Is Man?

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