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October 12, 2012 03:11 AM UTC

Biden vs. Ryan Open Thread

  • by: Colorado Pols

The epic battle of gaffester versus shyster begins.


58 thoughts on “Biden vs. Ryan Open Thread

  1. VP Biden acting awkwardly, like someone is tickling his penis. I expected some much more from Biden … he spent what 35 years on Senate Foreign Relations.

    Ryan, presenting a good compare and contrast, but the grin on his face either shows confidence or is projecting an inner smart-ass.

  2. Had it going with the ayatollah line of thour, but then stumbled as tried to pivot to the Bibi story …. Felt like he was making shit up.

    Ryan, I never noticed this, but his hair line is like … Widows peak.

    Biden not looking as VPish as he should … he isn’t coming off as serious, he’s coming off as too smug.

    Clearly the OFA strategy was to attack Romney and that doesn’t seem to be working.

    Ah unemployment … she asks them to be specific and Biden starts off claiming he will get it to 6% … then no details. Probably going to piss off the debate moderator. Now Joe is attacking Wall Street and he’s killing it …. Americans have been groomed to “hate” wall street.

    Now Ryan …. Ouch Scranton PA unemployment …

    was 8%, now 10% after 4 years of Obama. That really pissed off Biden.

    1. because Biden and Obama have the same views and policies.

      Didn’t you throw a temper tantrum and quit because you got tired of everyone telling you how wrong you are all the time? What happened to that? That was fun for a while.

          1. Is there something wrong with male on male cock gobbling in your mind?

            You seem to suggest in a negative light on gobbling cock, in this specific case you’re referencing man on man cock gobbling in a negative light.

  3. Will the citizens think he’s an ass or an attacker for taking this tact?

    Darn kid made me go to the other room to watch and I’m recording msnbc, so I’m missing the CNN independant voter dial.

    1. Both said plenty that was B.S. And when each did the other called them out on it.

      Both also said a lot that was a fair critique of the other. I also given them kudos for having a pretty substantive discussion.

      I think we won’t see any change from this. The base on both sides is happy. And those in the middle probably weren’t swayed either way.

      And I’m thrilled with a tie because I watched tonight afraid we’d have another disaster and that would have been bad news.

      1. What BS from Biden are you talking about?

        Ryan was still parroting the same debunked BS as Romney.  

        Other than typical verbal stumbles on some numbers, which Biden quickly corrected, I didn’t hear any misstatements of facts.

        Facts were pretty scarce coming from Ryan, if you didn’t happen to notice.

        Ryan’s response to the moderator’s call for specifics was broad, empty assertions.  Hey, we can cut taxes 20% and it won’t cost the middle class a dime.  The math does add up, we just can’t tell you how!

        1. CNN

          Forty-eight percent of voters who watched the vice presidential debate think that Rep. Paul Ryan won the showdown, according to a CNN/ORC International nationwide poll conducted right after Thursday night’s faceoff. Forty-four percent say that Vice President Joe Biden was victorious.

          As to the B.S. from Biden, the biggest one by far was his statement that he has always fought for the middle class against Wall St. When he was in the Senate he was totally owned by the banks.

          Ryan lied a lot more but Biden also served up  his share.

          1. From the poll site itself:

            SPECIAL NOTE OF CAUTION #2: The sample of debate-watchers in this poll were 31% Democratic and 33% Republican. That indicates that the sample of debate watchers is about eight points more Republican than an average CNN poll of all Americans, so the respondents were more Republican than the general public.

            So, if you want to match CNN’s general feeling for where the electorate really is, switch the numbers around: Biden 48, Ryan 44 – which is still Ryan’s best showing among the formal poll samples done last night.

            1. CBS polled 500 undecided voters.   50 pct said Biden won, 31 pct said Ryan won.   My only question is, this late in the game, where do you find 500 undecided voters;-)

      2. All the righty blogs are whining about the moderation and about how mean Biden seemed and how poor Paul Ryan never had to debate on this kind of stage before.

        But fortunately there’s Dave, back from flounced-out oblivion at the request of nobody to tell us that both sides are equally bad.  


        This is partisan analysis, to be sure, but listen to these points…

        Republicans love to mock Joe Biden for being an idiot. Hell, even most Democrats wouldn’t put Biden in the top twenty intellects of the party. Paul Ryan, though, is admired by many Republican politicians as the brains of the Republican Party. Mitt Romney chose to elevate Ryan to the VP slot because Romney needed a serious Republican thinker to codify his weak control over the base. Republicans think of Ryan (and Ryan likes to think of himself) as the serious numbers guy, the guy who comes up with the plans that other Republicans follow. He’s generally considered to be the smartest Republican in a national office today.

        And Joe Biden creamed Paul Ryan. He laughed in Ryan’s face and left him speechless. He shook Ryan’s ideas until they fell apart like the crepe paper and chicken wire that they truly are. … Biden clearly stated his beliefs as a Democrat. He argued that America cares about Americans, and he fact-checked Ryan at every turn. (I was particularly moved by Biden’s personal opposition as a Catholic to abortion, but his commitment to the fact that, as an elected official, it’s not his job to impose his will on the American people.) Biden out-argued, out-spoke, and out-thought the smartest man the Republicans have to offer, and he did so armed with the courage of his convictions.

  4. One of the classic lines in this debate was Biden saying that if Romney was such a great governor how come Massachusetts isn’t even being contested in this election.  I wish Biden had called out Ryan on the twelve million jobs by pointing out that Romney was 47th in job creation when he was governor.  If the magic math didn’t work then who really believes that it is going to work this time?

    1. Some interesting tidbits from his Wikipedia entry

      A March 2005 poll found that only 32 percent felt Romney should be re-elected if he ran for a second term as governor (69 percent of Republicans said he should be re-elected, compared to 31 percent of independents and 12 percent of Democrats)


      So much for his bipartisanship abilities…

      How did he manage to balance that budget?

      The additional revenue from the tax increase that had been enacted prior to Romney’s taking office (and which Romney had opposed during his campaign for the governorship) reduced the deficit, previously projected to be $3 billion, by $1.3 billion.[12] Unanticipated federal funds reduced the budget gap further still;[15] and in combination with funding cuts, fee increases, collection of more business tax revenue, and reliance on funds in the state’s “rainy day fund” (more formally known as the Stabilization Fund), Romney and the legislature were able to balance the 2004 budget.

      And what (this is not a tax) fees did Romney raise?

      Romney and the legislature relied heavily on fee increases to help balance the budgets throughout Romney’s term, more aggressively pursuing a revenue source that the legislature had already begun to draw upon to close a deep deficit during the year prior to Romney’s election.[33] The state of Massachusetts raised $500 million in new revenue during Romney’s first year in office from fees, more than any other state surveyed.[34] Romney proposed 33 new fees along with increases in 57 existing fees,[35] resulting in higher costs for birth certificates, new car purchases, driver’s learning permits, firearms permits, professional licenses, and billboards advertising, as well as for many state services.[36][29] He also increased a state gasoline fee originally intended for cleanup of contamination around underground fuel storage tanks.[3] The two cents per gallon increase made for a total effective state gasoline tax of 23.5 cents per gallon, generating about $60 million per year in additional revenue (surpluses of $40 million over the costs of the cleanup program).[3] Opponents said many of the fees posed a hardship on those who could least afford them, such as fees for the state to provide certification of blindness and a photo identification card for the blind.[35] The proposal also called for a $50 fee for tuberculosis tests and a $400 fee for those who tested positive (the tuberculosis fees were rejected by the legislature).

      But at least his keen business instincts and experience led to a huge increase in jobs, right?

      Job growth in Massachusetts rose at a rate of 1.5 percent (compared to the national average of 5.3 percent), placing Massachusetts 47th of the 50 states in new job creation over the course of Romney’s term.[64] The annual rate of job growth was improving by his last year in office, moving Massachusetts up from last place nationally to 28th

      Whew, from last place to almost mediocre — what a genius!

  5. I leave you all alone for one lousy vice-presidential debate and I come back and see you let Tad and Thi crap all over the thread.  People, I was counting on you and you really let me down.  I’m not angry … I’m disappointed.

  6. First, why can’t our Democratic candidates close their debates by Looking At The Camera!!  Obama and Biden both closed by trying to convince the moderator, while Romney and Ryan both closed to the camera.  Is that so hard for the Dems to do???

    Anyway, Biden was great with the line of attack: “Get out of the way.”  That could have been the main message, but was dropped for some reason.  He could have said: the farm bill is unpassed — get out of the way. The jobs bill for veterans is unpassed — get out of the way.  The overall jobs bill is unpassed — get out of the way.  Etc., etc., etc.

    Also, why doesn’t a Dem argue back to the GOP when they say “Now isn’t the time to raise taxes on anyone.”  Well, I think we can raise taxes a small amount on the wealthiest Americans, and those that don’t think so are not serious about cutting the deficit.

    Finally, Ryan favorably compares against Sarah Palin, unfortunately.  Four years ago, Sarah Palin was the clincher to sway undecided voters to Obama.  We don’t have that this year.

    Overall, this debate will not move the meter.  Ryan, while maybe not appearing ready to be president tomorrow, at least isn’t stupid.  Biden, didn’t make a gaffe and scored points on abortion (thanks to follow-up from Martha Radditz) and Medicare/Social Security.  

    Continue to watch the polls that have been in the field after last Saturday.  Obama will have a small lead.

    This is a base election.  GOTV is everything.  Tie up your shoelaces and get to work.

    1. how anyone looks at Ryan’s performance and says, “This is a guy who knows what he’s talking about.” Haven’t any of you ever taken a science class? Don’t you know the difference between bullshitting and explaining?

      Here’s a hint: if someone asks a question that challenges your statement, and you just repeat the same thing you said, you are faking it.

      Ryan is a moron who gets by in politics because most people can’t imagine anyone could really get away with faking it all the time.

      1. 93% of the first debate watchers have already decided who they support.  The remaining 7% are not exactly into nuance.  Those 7% flunked science!

        So, re-read my post in the context of how this debate is going to change the election.  

        And, I want to reiterate my view that “GOP – Get Out of the Way” should be the closing meme of the Obama campaign.  

        1. but I was responding to your point that “Ryan…at least isn’t stupid.” You’re wrong there.

          I’ve been a lazy kid, I’ve BSed my way through a book report on a book I didn’t read. I know what it looks like. Ryan looks smart to the media because they don’t want to believe every elected Republican House member is an idiot. So literally anyone who knows that a million is bigger than a thousand but smaller than a billion is the next Republican Einstein.

  7. Please someone teach Obama/Biden to look into the camera and talk DIRECTLY to the American people! Ignore Romney/Ryan/corporate-slugteam, and use the media opportunity to talk to US, the voters.

    Thank you.

    1. Its difficult to look the American citizen in the eye….

      1. America regressing, not progressing

      2. America divided, not unified

      Send OFA and Obama Super PACs more money … Obama needs many more negative advertisements that divert the attention of citizens to make believe issues … face it Obamas messaging on jobs, economy and the American way are not credible.

      ***********Hello Obama supporters!!!!!!*****Arms waving******S.O.S***********

  8. 10 Things Paul Ryan Doesn’t Want You to Know

    By Jon Perr

    There’s a saying that the only second chance you get in life is the chance to make the same mistake twice. As he prepares to debate Joe Biden, Paul Ryan will almost certainly confirm that adage. After all, following his first big moment in the national spotlight, the GOP vice presidential nominee was pilloried for his Republican National Convention speech chock full of omissions, misrepresentations and outright lies. Thursday night in Kentucky, the self-proclaimed “numbers guy” will doubtless deny them.

    Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney can’t handle the truth. And the only way they can win is if you don’t know it.

    1. Economists Warn Romney-Ryan Plan Means Huge Job Losses

    Like Mitt Romney, Rep. Ryan will claim that the GOP ticket will produce 12 million new jobs over the next four years. What Ryan won’t mention is how they’ll do that, or that forecasts this year from Moody’s Analytics, Macroeconomic Advisers and the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office already projected that based on recent trends the U.S. economy will generate roughly 12 million jobs by 2016 anyway. But a Romney-Ryan ticket isn’t planning to do nothing in office, but instead intends to implement draconian spending cuts that studies suggest could cost up to 600,000 jobs in 2013 and another 1.3 million in 2014.

    It’s no wonder a survey of hundreds of economists by The Economist found that “by a large margin they rate [Obama’s] overall economic plan more highly than Mr. Romney’s, credit him with a better grasp of economics, and think him more likely to appoint a good economic team.”

    2. Romney and Ryan Both Supported Social Security Privatization

    Paul Ryan didn’t merely call Social Security a “Ponzi scheme.” In 2005, he authored legislation to privatize Social Security that was so extreme even the Bush administration labeled it “irresponsible.” (Part of his original “Road Map for America’s Future,” Ryan quietly dropped privatization of the retirement program for 46 million seniors from his 2010 GOP budget.) Romney, too, repeatedly offered his support for diverting trillions from the Social Security Trust Fund into private accounts managed by Wall Street firms during the 2008 campaign (“that works”) and in 2010 book, No Apology. But given the staggering unpopularity of Social Security privatization, Romney is quick to deny that it is his current position.

    3. 98 Percent of Congressional Republicans Voted for Ryan’s Plan to Ration Medicare

    In the spring of 2011, 235 House Republicans and 40 GOP Senators voted for the Ryan budget’s proposal to transform Medicare into an under-funded voucher program dramatically shifting the cost of health care onto America’s seniors. Confronted with the inescapable conclusion that his proposal would inevitably lead to de fact rationing, Ryan protested:

    “Rationing happens today!” The question is who will do it? The government? Or you, your doctor and your family?”

    Ryan, of course, omitted the real culprits: private insurers. Which is why the 2012 version of the Ryan budget (similar to the Romney plan) maintaining the traditional “public option” as one choice for future Medicare beneficiaries now 55 and younger will nevertheless still lead to cherry-picking of healthier seniors and higher costs for everyone.

    4. Ryan Budget Takes $716 Billion from Medicare to Give Tax Cuts to the Rich

    Nevertheless, as he did at the RNC, Congressman Ryan will doubtless charge that $716 billion has been “funneled out of Medicare by President Obama.” Ryan’s baseless claim, deemed “flat-out wrong” by BusinessWeek and “repeatedly debunked” by the New York Times, tries to ignore that the Affordable Care Act extended the life of the Medicare Trust Fund by 8 years and expanded seniors’ prescription drug benefits and preventative care by slowing the growth of payments to private insurers and providers. (It is precisely these overpayments Mitt Romney wants to restore.)

    But Ryan’s fraud does not end there. His 2011 and 2012 budgets enjoying the near-total support of Capitol Hill Republicans take the same $716 billion and use it to pay for over $4 trillion in tax cuts. As with Mitt Romney’s proposed tax cut scheme, the lion’s share of the payday from the U.S. Treasury goes into the accounts of the wealthiest America.

    5. Romney and Ryan Will Cut Benefits for Today’s Seniors

    Both Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney take great pains to proclaim that “I don’t want any change to Medicare for current seniors or for those that are nearing retirement.” They are pained because the statement isn’t true. Their call to repeal Obamacare would take away free preventative care now part of Medicare and reopen the “donut hole” in its prescription drug program. (That change alone saved N million seniors over Y billion last year.)

    But the Republicans’ attack on today’s elderly doesn’t end there. The Romney-Ryan ticket has proposed slashing Medicaid by a third over the next decade and turning over the reduced funds to the states in the form of block grants. Those steep reduction threaten the 6 million elderly recipients of Medicaid, a program will which pays for 33 percent of all nursing home care.

    6. Romney-Ryan Plans Leaves 44 Million More Without Health Insurance

    Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan don’t merely want to repeal the Affordable Care Act current estimated to enable insurance for 30 million more Americans by 2020. All told, ending the ACA and s giving states control of shriveled Medicaid funding would leave up to 44 million people without insurance. Earlier this month, the Commonwealth Fund estimated President Romney would preside over a staggering 72 million Americans without coverage.

    7. GOP Ticket Adds Trillions More Than Obama in New Debt

    Thursday night, Rep. Ryan will echo Mitt Romney’s charge that President Obama has added $5 trillion to the national debt during his tenure. But Romney’s running mate won’t just omit mention that Ronald Reagan tripled the national debt and George W. Bush roughly doubled it again. Ryan will also fail to explain that the drivers of most of the debt under Obama–two wars, the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003, and the Medicare prescription drug plan–are all bills he voted for. All told, the same Republicans leaders who held the debt ceiling hostage last summer voted to raise it seven times under President Bush.

    Nevertheless, as the non-partisan Tax Policy Center and other analysts have detailed, Mitt Romney’s tax plan would slash federal tax revenues by roughly $5 trillion over the next decade. With Romney’s demand that core defense spending be at least 4 percent of GDP, new Pentagon spending will add another $2 trillion to the red ink. Even with the steep cuts to Medicaid and non-defense discretionary spending, Romney and Ryan can’t come close to offsetting the new debt unless they close all or most of the $1 trillion plus in tax credits, loopholes and deductions central to their pledge to lower rates and “broaden the base.” The result is not only more “immoral” debt for the next generation of Americans, but more than projected under President Obama’s plan.

    8. Romney and Ryan Won’t Name a Single Loophole They’d Close

    Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan could cauterize that hemorrhage of red ink if they could explain which of that trillion-plus dollars in tax expenditures they would stop. But Paul Ryan, who promised “We won’t duck the tough issues,” is just that.

    Will the Romney-Ryan administration end the $63 billion Earned Income Tax Credit for working families that Ronald Reagan called “the best anti-poverty, the best pro-family, the best job creation measure to come out of Congress?” How about the $89 billion a year home mortgage tax deduction? Many of those breaks help explain the 47 percent of Americans who pay no federal income taxes, otherwise known as Mitt Romney’s “victims” and Paul Ryan’s “takers.”

    Neither Mitt Romney nor Paul Ryan will say. Not, that is, until after the election. And not because, as Paul Ryan recently claimed, “It would take me too long to go through all the math.” The two men who call each other “bold” and “courageous” are simply too chicken.

    9. Ryan Supports GOP Platform’s Ban on All Abortions

    Despite his past support for it, Mitt Romney has declared his opposition to the Republican platform’s so-called Human Life Amendment. But while Romney would allow for abortions in the cases of rape, incest or to protect the health of the mother, Paul Ryan would permit no exceptions–period.

    Ryan co-sponsored a so-called “personhood” amendment defining a fertilized egg as a human being and sought to prohibit access to abortion for rape victims. And in a performance on the House floor reminiscent of John McCain’s famous 2008 debate “air quotes” surrounding “the health of the mother,” Paul Ryan protested:

    “The health exception is a loophole wide enough to drive a Mack truck through it.”

    10. Ryan Voted for the Defense Sequestration He Attacks Obama for

    In August 2011, Paul Ryan was among the House Republicans who voted for the debt ceiling compromise which would sequester $1.2 trillion in spending (half of it from the defense budget) if Congress did not otherwise trim the debt by that amount over the next decade. Of course, you’d never know that listening to him. In this exchange, Ryan’s rewriting of recent history left Norah O’Donnell stunned:

    O’DONNELL: Now you’re criticizing the President for those same defense cuts you’re voting for and called a victory…you voted for it!

    RYAN: No, Norah. I voted for the Budget Control Act.

    O’DONNELL: That included defense spending!

    RYAN: Norah, you’re mistaken.

    No, Paul Ryan is mistaken. But if Americans vote for him and his running mate, the mistake will be all ours.

  9. I said over a year ago, “Four more years of this?  Is this GOP “Party of No” going to simply continue into the second Obama term and nothing gets done?”

    That notion gives many should-be Obama voters serious pause.  Joe Biden began a line of attack that the GOP should “get out of the way”.  There are a whole litany of examples including those I noted in the above post.

    This is a base election if ever there was.  We need a charged-up base and cannot afford to lose those probable voters but for the worry that nothing will get done in a second Obama term.

    Using the Get Out Of The Way theme charges up the base.  Ryan even falls for the trap by noting the Dems had “total control” in the first two years.  That opens the door to pointing out the unprecedented use of the Senate filibuster and the stated goal to defeat Obama voiced by the GOP from Day One.  There are many avenues to explore with this theme.

    Finally, using the Get Out Of The Way slogan establishes political capital after the Obama victory to neutralize the GOP when they do try to stop Obama again.  We’ll say we won the election because the American People agreed with us that we’re fed up with your intransigence.  It’s time to play hardball and we have the American People on our side.  So, go ahead and threaten to shut down the government because you don’t want to raise taxes on millionaires.  Go ahead and try to filibuster a veterans jobs bill.  Enough is enough and we’re swinging the pendulum back to our side.

    1. The average underinformed voter hasn’t a clue how the Pubes have been stonewalling important legislation.  They think Obama’s failure to not get bills passed is, well, Obama’s failure.

      The Rethuglican plan of January 21st, 2005 of stopping the reelection of Obama by making him look bad is working.  

  10. I was happy with Biden and, listening to Caldera’s radio show after the debate, Republicans seemed happy with Ryan.

    Some quick points:

    -Ryan’s quip about words not coming out right in response to Romney’s 47% comment was funny, but Biden’s response to that was even better.

    -I liked the moderator. She let them talk and argue, but reeled them in when she needed to.

    -Romney and Ryan seem confused about the difference between “plan” and “goal”. Whenever they are asked about a plan, all they list are goals…

    <“What is your plan for the economy?”

    >”We’re going to create 3 million jobs, cut taxes across the board and close loopholes.”

    <“How are you going to do that?”

    >”We’re going to create 3 million jobs, cut taxes across the board and close loopholes.”


    1. Aside from “people,” Biden’s most used word was “going” and Ryan’s most used word was “want.” That’s the difference between a plan and a goal.

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