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January 27, 2012 04:24 PM UTC

Open Line Friday!

  • by: Colorado Pols

“I hope that we see this same kind of focused opposition to Obama once that day comes. I really do. Snerdley says, ‘Oh, yeah, no doubt.’ Really? Where’s the evidence? Where’s the evidence that anybody in our party’s got the guts to go after Obama the way they’re going after Newt here, the way they’ve gone after Perry, the way some of them have gone after Romney?”

–Rush Limbaugh, yesterday


118 thoughts on “Open Line Friday!

  1. I used to really enjoy this fearture because there would be little tidbits I found interesting.

    Now it is just @AngryVoters ranting and raving all day long.

    You don’t like Obama. Thank you. We get it. But do you really want one of the other guys? Like it or lump it, that’s the choice you will have come Nov.

    Let up on the tweets guys, we wanna hear about other stuff too.

      1. I’m seeing butthurt claims that you’re calling for their “censorship.” Didn’t know you were a government authority with the power to remove them from the internet completely!

        I guess if you’re a low-IQ white man who’s sad about the inevitable loss of status he had over smarter people who happen to be non-white, non-male, non-straight, and the like, I’d grasp at straws like that, too.

        I’d be happy for Pols to remove that twitter feed altogether. If it isn’t one idiot dominating, it’s another.

        1. who believes that that means every nimrod gets to have the same access to every possible means of communication. Because “free flow of ideas” that ain’t.

            1. Seriously, start over from the beginning. We were speaking to a specific feature Pols recently added to their home page. See if you can figure out whether removing this feature constitutes “shutting down” anyone’s communications.

              1. one person’s ideas weren’t worth it. I know, the next time Dave starts with how wonderful the Republican’s are, why don’t those comments just get deleted? I mean you know as silly season heats up Dave will be sounding very much like Angry Voter, just from a different angle. I say why not stop Dave from commenting.

                1. True or False: Deleting the Twitter feed from the Colorado Pols home page will stop AngryVoter from Tweeting.

                  Please limit your answer to either the single word “True” or the single word “False.” If you just feel that you have to say something else, do so after answering “True” or “False” first.

                  1. you don’t get the right or privilege of telling me how to answer.

                    Removing anyone from the twitter feed on the front page is silly, since Pols decided that following Angry Voters was the right move to make originally. I don’t like censorship at any level.  

                    1. The feed gathers all the tweets hash-tagged with #copols.

                      What would you say if some spammers started flooding the feed with junk, which anyone can do by using the hashtag? Would it be censorship to block those Twitter accounts?

                    2. “censorship at any level.” Declining to let a particular user into a feed isn’t censorship, it’s exercising control over what appears on Pols’ own site.  

                    3. that you won’t answer because you know that the answer is “false,” and it undermines your point completely. You might as well say that not subscribing to the Wall Street Journal “suppresses the free flow of ideas” as well. (If you did make that argument, it would at least be slightly closer to reality, as WSJ editorials are real ideas, while tweets, regardless of the source, are not.)

                    4. and tweeting and social media are how people communicate now as opposed to when dead tree media was all important; I’d think you’d see the correlation.  

                    5. We’re discussing what’s happening now. Which is this.

                      AngryVoters has their twitter feed. It exists whether or not Pols has a sidebar showing stuff with the #COpols hashtag or not. It would exist if they didn’t use the #COpols hashtag. AngryVoters have their twitter followers. They will get AngryVoters’ tweets regardless of whether there’s a twitter sidebar at ColoradoPols or not. Therefore, getting rid of the twitter sidebar suppresses nothing. They still put their stuff out there, and anyone who wants it can have it.

                      Ball’s in your court.

  2. Arrived in Southern California last night. First stop was In and Out Burger – so so good. And we’re sitting outside, with just a sweatshirt – and it’s midnight. Such nice weather.

    You all have fun freezing back there when the snow comes in 🙂

      1. A lonely railroad whistle blows in the distance, but I’m wearing a polo shirt and burping up the wood-fired pizza I ate a few hours ago — so so good.

        For some reason, there’s an unearthly glow outside the windows and the snow on the lawn is clearly visible.

        Down the street, a homeless gentleman could hardly be said to be “having fun” freezing. In fact, from his plaintive cries, it appears he might have lost a toe to frost-bite.

        1. For some reason, there’s an unearthly glow outside the windows and the snow on the lawn is clearly visible.

          Down the street, a homeless gentleman could hardly be said to be “having fun” freezing. In fact, from his plaintive cries, it appears he might have lost a toe to frost-bite.

          Laying in the snow on the ground below you, there’s a golden key.

          Spray-painted on the wall next to the old man is a single word: Xyzzy

    1. not amounting to much and nice weather predicted for tomorrow and days after. In ‘n Out burger no better than all the other one step up from McD’s joints (great burgers and the best fresh cut fries around at Merle’s in downtown Littleton, incidentally) and, unless you’re in San Diego, I’m not jealous. But enjoy, anyway.

      1. So does the dog.

        The real message here is that a poor, sad man, goes on vacation to somewhere great and is inside bragging about it. Complete with grammar rebuttal.

  3. Average Is Over

    Here are the latest unemployment rates from the Bureau of Labor Statistics for Americans over 25 years old: those with less than a high school degree, 13.8 percent; those with a high school degree and no college, 8.7 percent; those with some college or associate degree, 7.7 percent; and those with bachelor’s degree or higher, 4.1 percent.

    And those numbers understate the problem. In the start-up/growth-stage high-tech world we face a drastic shortage of qualified people. Because we need those to hire from the top 10%. So even within college educated we’re seeing a split between average and exceptional.

    So what about manufacturing? Well between China & 3D printers – that’s gone. Excellent article on this – How the U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work

    For Mr. Cook, the focus on Asia “came down to two things,” said one former high-ranking Apple executive. Factories in Asia “can scale up and down faster” and “Asian supply chains have surpassed what’s in the U.S.” The result is that “we can’t compete at this point,” the executive said.

    Another critical advantage for Apple was that China provided engineers at a scale the United States could not match. Apple’s executives had estimated that about 8,700 industrial engineers were needed to oversee and guide the 200,000 assembly-line workers eventually involved in manufacturing iPhones. The company’s analysts had forecast it would take as long as nine months to find that many qualified engineers in the United States.

    We face some fundamental changes in the economy and I get the feeling that the politicians are trying to address it with what worked 40 years ago.

    1. was a whole lot of federally funded job training.

      You neglected to mention this article’s discussion of the skills of their labor force that our workers don’t have.

            1. Since our 3D printers can provide us with EVERYTHING IMAGINABLE, there are literally no jobs remaining except performing 3D printer repairs. And pretty soon we’ll have 3D printers that can print 3D printers, so those jobs will go away too. Get used to it.

              Meanwhile, I’m wearing a sexy negligee at 4 in the morning while you suckers freeze to death in your winter hell hole. Ain’t life grand?!

                1. That the response to fundamental changes in society is to belittle and ignore them, rather than take them into account. I worry that the divide in society will grow greater if we can’t figure out how to mitigate the impact of these changes on society.

                  1. You can always cheer yourself up by indulging in a bracing brag session: Your awesome job creating business, kids, mom, worshipful employees, great vacations etc. Trust me.  You’ll feel better.  

                  2. David, of course manufacturing jobs are disappearing, and it puts the foundation of last century’s middle class in peril. This has been going on since the 1970s, and it underlies a lot of the turmoil we’ve had since then. No one’s disagreeing with that stunning observation. The point of poking fun at you and your vast smugness is … well, that’s the point of that.

                    1. What bothers me is the government consensus seems to be to ignore this change. Or to try and return to what we had in the ’70s when that won’t work.

                      I’m sorry if what I say comes across as smugness (although I would appreciate guidance as to why). What drives me is I don’t want to live in a country with a giant economic split and no middle class.

                    2. and 3D printer service techs. Those will be the only jobs they can’t outsource. Until they come up with a 3D Pizza Printer, then that job goes away too. it’s a brave new world ahead of us, and only David is grappling with these questions — the rest of them, they aren’t even trying.

                  3. your unwillingness to recognize that the “fundamental changes,” as you label them, are actually choices — paths that are being taken, but not necessarily paths that must be taken.

                    To take just one example, look at all the high-tech, precision manufacturing that occurs in Europe, but not in America. That was never an inevitability, it’s been a choice — the bad result of bad and narrow- minded decisions.   Your narrow-minded refusal to acknowledge that is merely symptomatic of the problems you’re constantly bemoaning.  And, it makes you, sometimes and in some areas, the dumbest smart-guy on Pols.

                    (Personally, I think it may just be an act, and that you’re really some kind of existential comic genius?  So, please, don’t stop playing your chosen role; it is entertaining.)

                    1. My point is that because in America we have not tried to address these issues, we’ve seen a lot more damage from the changes. What I’d like to see is our government work on how best to adapt to these changes.

                      I agree totally that we are in a lot worse shape because of our government’s inaction. That’s what I would like to see change. And my moaning is about a government that chooses to do nothing.

                    2. Pretty much anything metallic, plastic, etc can be printed. But cost and production speed are still cheaper for the vast majority of items. So its items that are very hard to machine, or that take a long time or have a lot of wastage that get printed. And some of it is inertia.

                      But the price of the printers keeps dropping drastically and the speed of printing keeps increasing. It’s all new enough that they’re improving the technology a lot every year.

                      My guess is the first place you’ll see a lot of use is speciality machining. And with that change there’s opportunity to regain manufacturing here. It’ll be a lot fewer jobs per unit manufactured, but better jobs.

                    3. So, I’ll try again.  What, as in name me some specific stuff, is being manufactured via 3D printers these days. Not what can be or what it costs.  What is.  

                    4. This article is a year old, so take that into account, but it’s a good overview of what’s happening.

                      The story starts talking about a revolution in production of prosthetic limbs, and then continues:

                      These days it is giving rise to a string of never-before-possible businesses that are selling iPhone cases, lamps, doorknobs, jewelry, handbags, perfume bottles, clothing and architectural models. And while some wonder how successfully the technology will make the transition from manufacturing applications to producing consumer goods, its use is exploding.

                      A California start-up is even working on building houses. Its printer, which would fit on a tractor-trailer, would use patterns delivered by computer, squirt out layers of special concrete and build entire walls that could be connected to form the basis of a house.

                      It is manufacturing with a mouse click instead of hammers, nails and, well, workers. Advocates of the technology say that by doing away with manual labor, 3-D printing could revamp the economics of manufacturing and revive American industry as creativity and ingenuity replace labor costs as the main concern around a variety of goods.

                    5. Some airplane parts are being printed. They are mostly very complex brackets where printed ones use less metal and are therefore lighter.

                      At Mudd this weekend I saw a 2′ solid fuel rocket which had been printed. Everything but the propellant and it’s container.

                      Out in Silicon Valley it’s used to create prototypes for a lot of devices startups are creating. This approach saves them a lot of time and money and that means more devices see the light of day.


                      Why does Apple manufacture abroad, and especially in China? As the article explained, it’s not just about low wages. China also derives big advantages from the fact that so much of the supply chain is already there. A former Apple executive explained: “You need a thousand rubber gaskets? That’s the factory next door. You need a million screws? That factory is a block away.”

                      This is familiar territory to students of economic geography: the advantages of industrial clusters – in which producers, specialized suppliers, and workers huddle together to their mutual benefit – have been a running theme since the 19th century.

                      And Chinese manufacturing isn’t the only conspicuous example of these advantages in the modern world. Germany remains a highly successful exporter even with workers who cost, on average, $44 an hour – much more than the average cost of American workers. And this success has a lot to do with the support its small and medium-sized companies – the famed Mittelstand – provide to each other via shared suppliers and the maintenance of a skilled work force.

                      . . . which means??? . . . We’re both existential comic geniuses . . . or, that we’re both, sometimes and in some areas, dumb smart guys??   ;~)   So sad, . . . I think I’ll go pick up the dog poopsicles now.

                    7. And somehow that became a dirty word in this country. It’s like we purposely choose to not have one. Possibly because we felt it was “interfering” with the market.

                      We have to rebuild this here. And we can – manufacturing is changing fast enough that there is opportunity.

                    8. Subject your workers to 12 hour days, make them live in company barracks, and put them to work on the assembly line at any hour to meet production needs. Don’t worry about killing them through factory explosions or long-term through bad environmental practices.  

          1. all his recently released schedules, you’ll find a line where Smittens already claimed that credit . . .

            You wouldn’t want a filthy rich, .0001%er President who paid one extra penny in taxes beyond what he was (minimally) required to, would you?

    1. Telling the reporter what was “professional”.

      At its heart journalism is about calling “bullshit,” not about regurgitating talking points or making false equivalency.

      Journalism has so failed the American people, that asking the obvious question and not letting it go when you are given a deceptive answer is not considered professional.

      The failure of Journalism and the rise of infotainment and slanted non-news has cost lives and threatens Democracy.

      Kudos to the reporter.

      1. that the reporter probably got a swift kick in the ass for this from management rather than a congratulations, which is part of that same problem you speak of.

  4. I noticed Fox 31 recently shared on Facebook a “slideshow” of women arrested in a prostitution sting on East Colfax Avenue.

    The “John TV” concept was always defended with the argument that shaming johns would reduce the demand for sex work and protect at-risk women. Obviously, naming and shaming the women themselves does nothing to protect them. Many women are involved in prostitution due to addiction, mental illness, or because they have been in some way victims of human trafficking. Streetwalkers on Colfax aren’t likely to be the well-adjusted, mentally and physically healthy high-dollar escorts who have chosen of their own free will to become sex workers.

    I find it extremely distasteful that Fox has used this information in such a way. It’s public data, but to collect it into a slideshow, include the women’s full names, and share it via social media, disturbs me. If these women want to leave the sex industry and seek education and other employment, the last thing they need is street harassment by people who recognize them from a mugshot.

    Am I totally off base in objecting to this? I just feel that these are likely women who’ve been exploited enough already, and showing their names and faces in an attempt to garner Web traffic just exploits them further.

          1. So I really am not seeing the importance of the distinction between ownership and affiliation. They affiliate themselves with the Fox News brand and Fox News affiliates itself with the local station’s content. In practical terms, is there any difference in this context, or do you just want to nitpick?

              1. IN THIS SPECIFIC CONTEXT, what is the difference between a Fox affiliate that uses the slogan “Fox 31 news at nine,” including the words “fox” and “news,” and “Fox News?” In the context of a blog comment, what functional and meaningful difference does it make?

                Or you could just keep declaring that there’s a huge difference without making any effort to support that. That’s fine too.

                1. but I’ll spare you.

                  As a side matter of why, in this context, it matters because a person can actually do something about it. Complain to Fox News and… (damn liberals)

                  Complain to Fox31 and they might pull it. They might tell their side. They might not pull it, but not do it again. Got a story idea for the other side? Make some phone calls. You might just see it on air.

                  Also, continuity is good.

                2. I’m going to be pretty specific. It’s not meant to talk down to you – I find that when I’m thorough, people sometimes feel that I am, but I’m just trying to make sure nothing is missed.

                  Network affiliation means that these are the local broadcasters who carry the network’s programming. Fox31 is Denver’s station that carries Fox network programming, like The Simpsons, but otherwise produce or syndicate the rest of their programming. Local news is one of their own productions. The station isn’t owned by Fox, any more than CBS4-Denver is owned by CBS, or their news division is managed by CBS News in NYC.

                  Now, it’s possible that there’s some minor affiliation with Fox News, but I don’t think so. The main Fox network has no news programming of its own; unlike the Big Three, who all have nightly news, morning shows, and primetime shows like Dateline, 60 Minutes or Nightline.* But Fox News is kept entirely on cable, so you won’t see a local Fox station giving blurbs about any reports that will be on the nightly report.

                  Anyway, without knowing more, we have to treat Fox31’s decision as one they reached on their own, and one that doesn’t reflect on the sterling reputation of the fair and balanced Fox News Channel.

                  * Late night rather than prime time, in this case. Also, Fox does have a morning show, but I don’t think it’s very newsy at all.

                  1. And to droll too — very helpful.

                    I know approximately nothing about how TV networks operate, except what I learned in this thread. It really is just totally alien to me. It makes no sense to me, in marketing terms, that the main Fox organization would allow someone to put the name “Fox news” on programming they don’t have any role in, just by inserting a “31” in the middle. I guess that’s traditional in the industry, but I can’t imagine, say, Nabisco cookies allowing local “Nabisco affiliates” to use their brand name for a product over which Nabisco exercises no quality control.  

                    1. If you don’t, and have not, watched a lot of TV, I can see the confusion. But regular TV viewers will know the difference.

    1. Many of these girls and women are forced into prostituion by violent men, or do it because of a drug addiction. They will be back on the street tomorrow, because they have no alternatives.

      Putting the john’s photos up also doesn’t work. Families of these men should not have to suffer because of what good old Dad did.

      Very few prostitutes would choose that line of work if they were not first addicted to drugs, or felt it was their only real option to survive. When we give people job training skills, make higher education affordable for everyone, and offer free substance abuse prevention, prostitution will go way down.

      But maybe some of the people who vote against all these programs don’t want that to happen… ?

      1. And added bonus commentary about their looks.


        Have you SEEN the ads in Westword…?

        We differ quite a bit in our views on the sex industry as a whole, IIRC, but I don’t think any feminist of any stripe could support the shaming of these women, who are clearly working in a dangerous area and in the most dangerous type of sex work already. Putting them at further risk is unconscionable.  

  5. A new survey released from the National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health found that “strong majorities” of Latina/os registered to vote support “access to legal abortion, affirm that they would offer support to a close friend or family member who had an abortion, and oppose politicians interfering in personal, private decisions about abortion,” the group reports.

    1. to

      oppose politicians interfering in personal, private decisions

      It’s just not current Repuglodyte “conservative”.

      Frankly, I can’t fathom how Repugs reconcile “social conservative” with actual conservatism, since it’s all about using the government to shove their Lizard Epoch beliefs down other people’s throats.

      In any case, thanks for bringing this up on a Pols thread.  

  6. DENVER — A judge Thursday denied the federal government’s request to keep a longtime anti-abortion protester from being able to stop cars and talk to drivers as they enter Denver’s Planned Parenthood center.

    U.S. District Judge Philip Brimmer rejected the Justice Department’s argument that Kenneth Scott’s actions make it “unreasonably difficult” for patients and employees to get to the clinic.

    Ken and Jo Scott have tormented the visitors to Planned Parenthood’s headquarters since it was built, and stalk their providers around town.

    The judge may have ruled that Ken Scott is not in violation of the FACE law (passed by our own Diana DeGette), but standing in the middle of the street obstructing the flow of traffic and stopping cars that seek to enter their driveway is a violation of local traffic laws.

    The Hancock administration, office of public safety and the DPD have a duty to see that laws are respected and that people can do their business without physical obstruction of their comings and goings.

    1. Clinic visitors should make a point of calling police when he obstructs traffic from now on. Cell phone photos would help to show this since he will likely move to the sidewalk when he realizes police are coming.

  7. meme at Daily Kos.

    From 2008 to 2009 military families were using food stamps at twice the rate as civilians, 25 percent to 13 percent. About $31 million of food stamps were used in nationwide commissaries. […]

    President Obama, in the 2010 Defense Authorization Bill, increased the food subsistence program for military families to $1,100 and made it non-taxable to help get families off food stamps.

    1. Newt’s use of the term “food stamp President” is really only about food stamps in so far as “food stamps” is dog whistle code aimed at his more racist supporters. Those supporters don’t care about your real world facts. Just look at Cantor and his press secretary’s reactions to facts about Reagan raising taxes. Look at how they want to ignore the fact (that nasty word again) that the most famous founding fathers owned slaves and didn’t include them in the whole all men are created equal thing.

      Everybody knows facts are inherently biased toward the America hating, class war waging “left”. Good, patriotic righties create their own reality. They’re big fans of freedom and, naturally,  freedom from inconvenient facts that clutter up the approved narrative is the most important freedom of all.

  8. Still,

    Advocates of the technology say that by doing away with manual labor, 3-D printing could revamp the economics of manufacturing and revive American industry as creativity and ingenuity replace labor costs as the main concern around a variety of goods.

    Revive for whom, I wonder. Jobs building stuff are about the only ones left for average Joes that pay well. In spite of Dave’s suggestion on another thread, I don’t think they’ll all be able to make good money, once this throws more of them out of work, by going into business for themselves.

    I understand that stuff changes and economies have to adapt but I also understand that we won’t have a middle class without well paying jobs for average Joes. Replacing labor costs means eliminating more decent middle class income opportunities, after all, and we all can’t be entrepreneurs, financiers, brokers, doctors, lawyers, computer geeks and rocket scientists. Not everyone can make a living on “creativity and ingenuity”.

    So what will we be replacing those decent middle incomes with? Low paying service and retail sector jobs? How many more of even those mainly pretty lousy jobs will the economy of the future need? Pretty depressing.

    And as wonderful and creative as Dave is, as successful as his company is and as worshipfully happy his lucky employees in Daveland may be, we can’t all go to work for him and he can’t afford to  provide us all with solid family supporting sized paychecks, either.  Not even with 3D printers.  

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