Wednesday Open Thread

63
  by: Colorado Pols February 5, 2020 at 6:27 AM MST

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  1. MADCO says:
    February 5, 2020 at 6:41 AM MST

    Vote for the whoever is the D nominee.

    Mayor Pete got great DSE – and he is not broke. However, he is not polling well in the next primaries- super Tuesday may be a stretch.

    Precinct detail shows Biden is barely viable for any delegates in Iowa. And he’s broke.

    Warren did great in Iowa, and may do well enough in the upcoming.

    Amy got the same number of Iowa delegates as Bennet. Also Booker, Harris, Castro, Inslee, Bullock, Kerry and Clinton.

    If Sanders is leading when we wake up March 4, will the Democratic party eat itself alive and just give it to Trump?

    Or will people bite their thumb and say nice things abou Bernie – or nothing at all?
     

    • kwtree says:
      February 5, 2020 at 8:10 AM MST

      Bernie is leading- because young people like his consistency and policies. He’s not a politician who changes message according to his audience. On policies, anyone not willfully ignorant sees the need for systemic change. Young people know that their future is dim if the Trump trends continue. Older folks see the crumbling of all safety nets they have relied on. 
       

      As a reminder, FDR, LBJ, Clinton, Eisenhower, and Obama also proposed expensive social programs paid for by high taxes- and they were correct to do so, and are considered some of our greatest Presidents. They helped America recover from the “Welfare for the wealthy and for corporations” policies of their predecessors.

      I’m still hoping for an unstoppable Sanders / Warren ticket. I don’t even care much whose name is on the top line. Either would be a great President. Either would be a great VP who could whip a recalcitrant Senate into line. Bernie is older, and has a wonky heart. It would be smart for him to have a successor lined up who would continue his policies.

      • Conserv. Head Banger says:
        February 5, 2020 at 8:40 AM MST

        Sounds like kwtree/mj has a bad case of McGovern-itis.

        The far right wing, dark money, PACs would love to see a Sanders/Warren ticket.

        • Voyageur says:
          February 5, 2020 at 9:19 AM MST

          The flightless bird is really rooting for Joe Hill and Big Bill Haywood.

        • ParkHill says:
          February 5, 2020 at 11:29 AM MST

          McGovern was destroyed by the Democratic Party establishment, Southern Democrats and Conservative Labor leaders.

          The Vietnam era was a watershed that made a large portion of people under 30 who went to college aware the the US establishment was corrupt. Outside that segment, the traditional, middle & working class and rural Whites were very much wedded to the 1950s postcard of small towns, prosperity and (small-c) conservatism.

          The Democratic Party has been changing for reasons that are relatively obvious in retrospect.

          Post McGovern we had decades of technocratic, business-oriented Democrats like the New Democrats and Third Way (hi Andrew) dominating the Party.

          The progressive wing is now at least 50% of the Democratic Party. This is due to youth, education, immigration, urbanization, and the Dixiecrats going over to the Republican Party.

          The oddest thing about US politics today is not the weakness of the Democratic Party establishment, but the total collapse of the moderate Republicans. I guess some of them have joined the Democratic Party.

          • RepealAndReplace says:
            February 5, 2020 at 11:43 AM MST

            McGovern was also labeled as many things by the GOP, most of which were either not true or extreme exaggerations. 

            In contrast, if Bernie is our nominee this year Trump could get by with simply telling the truth and scaring people. (Not that he would limit himself to telling the truth. He really can't help himself there.) 

          • MADCO says:
            February 5, 2020 at 11:57 AM MST

            "moderate Republicans"

            What is that?
            is that like those postcards with pictures of rabbits with antlers?

            • Conserv. Head Banger says:
              February 5, 2020 at 12:09 PM MST

              @ParkHill: old saying, I think, from the late Paul Kantner from the Jefferson Airplane/Jefferson Starship band.

              “if you remember the 1960s, you weren’t there.”

              @MADCO: “moderate Republicans What’s that?” Also known as common sense conservatives.

              • Duke Cox says:
                February 5, 2020 at 6:46 PM MST

                There is that smugness again. 

                You guys own common sense?…or can people of other political persuasions have it , too?

              • MADCO says:
                February 5, 2020 at 7:13 PM MST

                Yeah
                In my experience the so called common sense conservatives believed in libertarianism just until they get the subsidy. They believed in campaign finance limitations, just until they could write the check. 
                Their 401k and IRA became more important than investing int he our national future.
                And now they love on Trump.
                Yeah

      • Diogenesdemar says:
        February 5, 2020 at 8:44 AM MST

        If there’s any message that can be drawn from the Iowa results, that ain’t it.

        Bernie underperformed reasonable expectations and the majority of pre-caucus polling.

        And, he dodged a bullet and a stinging narrative Tuesday night when the results weren’t available under the glare of the reporting media. 

        Hard to say what might have happened if the Bloomberg ATM had been open in Iowa.

        But, it’s only one piece of evidence . . .

        PS. One downside to “young people.” They very often lack the life experience to make informed judgements about the likelihoods in their futures, and future events. I talk to way too many young people who, amazingly, have convinced themselves that Ttump has moved America’s needle towards greatness again. I don’t, obviously, know where the majority lies, but I do know that there’s two sides to every coin.

        I agree that, eventually, the future belongs to the young, but demographically that may be a little bit less true than before?

      • DENependent says:
        February 5, 2020 at 8:56 AM MST

        Of the top five I would rank Mayor Pete at the bottom in terms of candidate quality* and my agreement with their views. If we had a ranked choice ballot I would pick:

        1. Warren
        2. Klobuchar
        3. Sanders
        4. Biden
        5. Brokered Convention/Can We Have Other Options?
        6. Pete (I guess, if I have to.)

        If Klobuchar really is done after Iowa and Warren does not start to break through I suppose I'll end up voting Sanders. I caucused for him because I thought nominating Clinton a bad idea. I will vote for him over Biden for the same reason. He's too old, but he at least seems more likely to do something rather than mark time for four years while being hopeful that everything will just go back to normal.

        *How inspiring I find them, how trustworthy they seem, how well they seem to run organizations, etc.

      • RepealAndReplace says:
        February 5, 2020 at 10:45 AM MST

        Young people like Bernie because they do not pay taxes. And Bernie promises to pay their bills. What is there not to like…..

        Fortunately their elders are more consistent voters when it comes to turnout.

        • DENependent says:
          February 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM MST

          Saying young people don't pay taxes is like saying everyone on welfare is living like a queen.

          I could just as "accurately" say that old people like Biden because he promises that he'll keep government's hands off their Medicare. And that what old people really want is for working people to keep paying their Social Security while they work to bankrupt it for anyone younger than 55.

            • DENependent says:
              February 5, 2020 at 11:23 AM MST

              Thanks.

              Personal story time. My father, the Republican, wants to vote for Warren in the fall. He hates trump, but because he lives in a county that is something like the most Republican in Colorado with a population over 3,500 he is still a member of the party. He tries to make them more true to what he sees as conservatism. (He’s against abortion, thinks divorce should be harder, and is pro-gun, but would otherwise fit in the Democratic party somewhere to the left of party center right now).

              He wants someone who’ll do all they can to fix things and un-rig the system so that middle age people like me or younger people like my nibblings can actually get Social Security in our old age, have good paying jobs, and the like. On a fair number of social issues he’s rather conservative, but in the general election economic ones are more important to him. He sees his children struggling in the modern economy and he actually recognizes that we’re not lazy or screw ups. We’re working just as hard as he did, but he had a great union and lived in a different situation.

              Personally, I am lucky enough to be “okay”. I own a really small house in a formerly blue collar neighborhood. Things could be much worse for me, but I could also be so much farther ahead in life if things like medical bills had not held me back over the decades.

              There is a lot of variation in how people see the world. I think supporters of Biden are decent, honest people who disagree with my candidate choices. Characterizing all of them as old or rich would be wrong and counterproductive. Just as throwing shade the other way on Sanders or Warren is wrongheaded.

            • Gilpin Guy says:
              February 5, 2020 at 1:15 PM MST

              by a landslide.  Young people want to get an education without going permanently into debt while old people want to be able to see the doctor of their choice with low deductibles for medications.  Both want good services and no new taxes.  Meanwhile the deficit is set to blow past $20 trillion.  Something (looking at you rich people) has got to give for both groups to not be unduly burdened.

        • MADCO says:
          February 5, 2020 at 11:06 AM MST

          Once, when I was someone else someplace else argle bargle, decided I know (you don't)  Then, when you got older I thought I got smarter and people listend for my wisdom, but really hooey kablooey they don't you're not

          You have no clue.
          You are thinking about older Republicans.
          The young progressive crowd I hear from are happy to pay their share. They get frustrated by blowhard clueless boomers telling them how it was and needs to be. thankfully we don't have any of those

          Vote D.

      • itlduso says:
        February 5, 2020 at 12:01 PM MST

        Sanders’ plans cost at least $50 Trillion.  Warren’s cost $25 Trillion.  How much will taxes need to be raised on the middle and lower class to pay for this.  Show your work.  (Hint: their wealth tax proposals only raise $4 Trillion.)

      • RepealAndReplace says:
        February 5, 2020 at 2:01 PM MST

        Sanders/Warren ticket……

        La Pomposa has the perfectly balanced ticket. Ideologue and pragmatist. Male and female. North and south (New England, that is). Rural and urban. Activist and academic. Older septuagenarian and younger septuagenarian. 

        As Vermont goes, so goes Massachusetts.

    • Gilpin Guy says:
      February 5, 2020 at 9:30 AM MST

      Can you say Jeremy Corbyn? 

      • DENependent says:
        February 5, 2020 at 10:12 AM MST

        Can you say Hillary Clinton? John Kerry?

        Or if you want a British example how about Gorden Brown?

        • Conserv. Head Banger says:
          February 5, 2020 at 12:17 PM MST

          Sorry, DENependent: G.G. has it right. Bernie is an American version of Jeremy Corbyn, Warren less so. At least Warren can make adjustments as she has gone along. 

          • MADCO says:
            February 5, 2020 at 12:24 PM MST

            Doesn't mean he can't be nominated

            • Gilpin Guy says:
              February 5, 2020 at 4:38 PM MST

              Being nominated is the easy part.  Getting a big majority (because we've seen that little majorities don't cut it) while being labeled a Stalinist communist is a different nut to crack.  Didn't say it can't be done but Bernie sure smells like Jeremy Corbyn.

          • DENependent says:
            February 5, 2020 at 12:51 PM MST

            By that do you mean that if Sanders is nominated you and the “moderates” will back Bloomberg in third party run (yay, LibDems) or that you’ll stay home because you just cannot stand him that much (well done non-voters)?

            There are all sorts of layers to the Sanders = Corbyn analogy before we even get to all the ways in which it is inaccurate. Plus, you did not address my reply which was that Biden = Clinton 2020. Which has its own layers of misrepresentation, but is probably just as fair as analogies go. I would love to be wrong, but right now I’m not impressed by the Biden campaign. Show me that he’s a better candidate than I think, please. It would make me a lot happier.

  2. ParkHill says:
    February 5, 2020 at 7:22 AM MST

    WOTD: "It was a courteous thing to do considering the alternative."

    • Gilpin Guy says:
      February 6, 2020 at 8:58 AM MST

      As a software guy, I’m surprised you don’t understand the problem with flawed roll-outs.  Speaking of incestuous corruption, have you looked at the Republicans lately?

    • Gilpin Guy says:
      February 6, 2020 at 4:45 PM MST

      Don't see where you updated that Forever Trumpers clogged the Iowa Democrats phone so that Democrats with legitimate reasons to call were blocked.  Talk about blatant corruption of our political process David.  You're right down there with the lowest of them.

  4. Pseudonymous says:
    February 5, 2020 at 7:27 PM MST

    That’d be something.

    • MADCO says:
      February 6, 2020 at 7:22 AM MST

      Vote D no matter who wins.

      I agree Texas  – but we won't know for several days.
      The Texas primary is a guaranteed difficult count. But Sanders gets the delegates eventually.

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