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May 30, 2006 08:00 AM UTC

Tuesday Open Thread

  • by: Colorado Pols

Are there ides in May?


41 thoughts on “Tuesday Open Thread

  1. A few months ago a photo of Bob Beauprez in a flight suit caused great concern for many military veterans, since Both Ways Bob did not serve in the military.  The photo had been taken at the Watkins Colorado airport in June 2004.

    Another photo of Beauprez in a different flight suit can be viewed at the following Internet site:

    Has anyone seen this other photo of Bob Beauprez in a flight suit?  Where and when was it taken?  Is it more recent than the June 2004 photo?

  2. I wonder if President Bush wishes to continue his war against Journalists now?  Is he still going after CBS Kimberly Dozier?  How many other Journalists are still on his CIA and FBI bulls-eye? 

    Thank goodness for what Journalists do … they should not have ANY restrictions in bringing us the “truth.” 

    President Bush must be impeached.  If he is not Impeached, then the next President will believe that they can also lie, cheat, steal and attempt to take away our democracy.

  3. TD,

    Rather’s story was backed up by the same person who essentially debunked the authenticity of the Guard documents – the secretary who would have typed them up…  The documents weren’t the source of the information that Bush’s Guard career was a bust, they were supposed to be the physical proof.  The secretary stated she typed up essentially the same document, just not the copy that Rather had in his possession.  The media got so carried away with the forgery that they overrode the story.

    Blair, Judith Miller and other recent plagiarists/propagandists have been a disgrace to journalism.  Rather, OTOH, ran with a story for which he had multiple independent sources, and got burned by an opportunist pawning forgeries; he and his generation of news anchors will be sorely missed.

  4. TD,

    The way I look at it … the “truth” still came out (as Phoenix Rising mentioned) in the end.  Your Rather example is not the first to try something at tipping the balance to influence the decrepit falsehood makers of Republican (authoritarian) theory.  How many documents have we swallowed from propagandists during the vietnam war?  PLEANTY of LIES, pleanty of US servicemen deaths, dishonoring their loyalty to service and the country that they loved…

  5. I wanted to bring up the issue of estate tax. I work for and the Bush administration is seeking to permanently cut the estate tax out of existence. This is insane, with Katrina expenses, and all of our military spending, we cannot cut more taxes, just so the millionaires in this country save a buck or two. Does anyone agree with me? Have you heard about this coming up in Congress?

  6. I wanted to bring up the issue of estate tax. I work for and the Bush administration is seeking to permanently cut the estate tax out of existence. This is insane, with Katrina expenses, and all of our military spending, we cannot cut more taxes, just so the millionaires in this country save a buck or two. Does anyone agree with me? Have you heard about this coming up in Congress? If you dont agree with this call your senator or congressman and let him know!

  7. I wanted to bring up the estate tax topic. The Bush administration is looking at permanently doing away with it. Are they crazy? With all of the expenses from Katrina and our military over in Iraq, we cannot cut taxes. If you are interested check out the website that i work for. We need to contact our congressman and senators and tell them to keep this tax. It wont hurt the millionaires pockets.

  8. The Bush Administration has had this plan, in my opinion, to grab power and money for the rich, to keep control over the poor.  They promote laws that favor them.  I also have a belief, that if the country were to fail economically, that that plan would then enable the Religious Right (churches) to take over the country.  This is there plan as we meet economic problems worldwide — a likened to what happened to the fall of Rome. 

    However, their greed is what causes the danger — their need for greater and greater levels of personal wealth.  It is a Republican theory, that as the rich get richer, the poor get the scraps, the breadcrums upon the floor. 

    In past civilizations, like the Greeks (Athenians), we saw a prosperous society that was governed in a true democracy.  Today, we are far from it and your example is proof of their continued grab at keeping their economic power.

  9. Ashle and PRIORITIES = spam, spam, spam, spam

    Patriot – the citizens of ancient Athens were slaveholders.  You want to talk about true democracy in that context, you’d better get your facts a bit straighter.

  10. Quixote —

    Nonetheless, the Athenians were the only classical government that had a “true” democracy.  And for a time, for about 200 years as I recall, the poor ruled over the rich and it worked. 


    The Athenian democracy (sometimes called classical democracy) was the democratic system developed in the Greek city-state of Athens (comprising the central city-state of Athens and its surrounding territory Attica). Athens was one of the very first known democracies, and probably the most important in ancient times. Other Greek cities set up democracies, most but not all following an Athenian model, but none were as powerful or as stable (or, relatively speaking, as well-documented) as that of Athens.

  11. A “true” democracy doesn’t hold slaves.

    Or do you wish to encourage us to return to those days?

    And, by the way, Athens eventually got its ass kicked, early limited democracy or not.

    You might want to pick another example.

  12. Quixote —

    If your Republican theme believes that we should create a conspiracy against its own people, then I would rather have the democracy or the “authoritarian” example.  Besides, I don’t see how being untruthful with the citizenry or the world has helped in the grand scheme of things. 

    I would suggest that you watch this video.  It does make you think about the obvious …

  13. >If your Republican theme…..

    Excuse me?  I have attacked more republicans than democrats here, and all for good reasons.

    So spare me the strawman nonsense, eh?

    And spare me your conspiracy theories, too. 

    >Besides, I don’t see how being untruthful with the citizenry or the world has helped in the grand scheme of things.

    Apparently, you’d know quite a bit about being untruthful….and trying to change the subject.

    You need to develop a new partisan schtick.  The one you have now has got a lot of very visible hole in it, and your agenda is showing.

  14. Quixote, You are correct in that a true democracy does not have slaves or disallows women the right to vote, both of which occurred in Athens.

    However, the Greek city-state of Athens is considered by most historians to be the first example of “direct democracy”, (it was not considered a representative democracy since members of the Assembly were not elected, but rather any male that qualified over the age of 20 was considered a participant). Future governments and their founders, including ours, based many of our modern concepts of democracy on the Greek model.

  15. None of which justifies Patriot’s citation of the limited direct democracy of the Athenians as the model to emulate.

    >Which would you choose…..

    Sorry, false choice.  Your premise is that those are the only two choices, and that the choice is very highly simplistic.

    Bovine scatological material, not worthy of any further comment.

  16. Hey, just for the record, Quioxote, I wasn’t disagreeing with you on the big picture. I do think that the Athenian style of government was incredibly advanced for its time and place in history. That was really my only point. I’m staying out of the rest!

  17. Quixote —

    You may remember the statement about fools …

    ‘Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again’ — George W. Bush.

    Quixote, just for your information, I choose “democracy” … what do you choose?

  18. Remarkable: you might want to retract your claim about Kerry’s Christmas in Cambodia; Kerry is apparently interested in a 2008 run, ’cause he’s hired a whole bunch of investigators to round up proof to rebut the Swift Boat Veterans for Lying.  One of the claims they’ve managed to get some information on is the Cambodian trip, specifically (1) his official location by radio report puts him much closer to Cambodia than SBVfL claimed, and (2) proof that Navy SEAL insertions into Cambodia at that time, which might be as close as we ever get to knowing that Kerry’s team was doing the insertion.

    NY Times ran an article on it the other day.  They had some photos of Kerry’s arm injury (the one SBVfL claimed was a buttocks injury), and of Kerry holding a captured rocket launcher (the one SBVfL claimed didn’t exist).  They also have the Bronze Star application that SBVfL claimed was submitted by Kerry; it was submitted by another service member.  I haven’t seen the whole article with appropriate photo sourcing, so I won’t claim anything specific, but since Kerry’s other rebuttals have all held up (see ‘Military Records, Official’), I am inclined to give him a bit of leeway until I can see the whole thing.

  19. Do we dismiss what early America accomplished with its Representative Democracy because we, too, supported slavery?  No – we acknowledge the Founding Fathers for the wonder of the government they created, tempered by our current wisdom that slaveholding is Bad and that women should have equal rights (well, most of us do, anyway…).

    The Athenian government was a wonder for its time, misogynist and slave-bound though it was.  In the end, yes, it got its ass kicked; but then, so has just about every other historical government no matter its methods.  So maybe we should just throw out history…

  20. Don’t make me laugh, Phoenix.

    Kerry has had numerous opportunities – as well as innumerable requests – to sign a Form 180 and release his entire Navy file.

    He says he has done this, but he hasn’t.  He’s only released small portions of it. 

    His claims have held up?  Laughable.  You mean like the claims he made in ‘Winter Soldier’?  Pathetic.

    My guess is that he won’t release his records because his discharge was under less than honorable conditions.  And I’m speaking of the original one, not the one that came much later, after being reissued after Pres. Carter’s general amnesty.

    Kerry’s a phony from the word ‘go’. 

    Oh, and as for an ’08 run, that’s laughable, too.  He’ll need to check with Mrs. Clinton first.

  21. Kerry served in Vietnam. 

    Where was Bush?  Cheney?  Rummy?  Wolfowitz?  Perl?  Rove? and even that ideologue Rush?

    Remarkable, how about a little closer to home.  Where was Beauprez? Tancredo?

  22. Sorry, SameSong – you liberals shot your wad when Bill Clinton avoided military service by fraud.

    By the way – where is Mrs. Clinton’s military service?

  23. How many deferments did the mob in the White House and Congress take?

    Hilary didn’t dress up in a flight suit.  I’m not questioning her service, but rather those men (PNAC and their Propagandist) who gave no second thought to putting our servicemen in two wars, with no real coaltion, no armor and no exit plan.

  24. It is clear both parties are void of responsible leadership.  Hillary Clinton and Al Gore as the choice of Democrats?  This shows the shallow gene pool in that party.  Unfortunately for Republicans, it’s not about a vision of America but staying in the seat of power.  The base that Reagan galvanized will not support this marshmallow brand of yuppie conservatism that plays to not lose.  Both have lost touch with the peeps.  Remember, fellas, pure democracy sentenced Plato to death.  I’ll stick with a flawed representative Republic.

  25. flawed is not the correct word for it.

    corrupt |k??r?pt| adjective 1 having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain : unscrupulous logging companies assisted by corrupt officials. • evil or morally depraved : the play can do no harm since its audience is already corrupt. See note at depraved . • archaic (of organic or inorganic matter) in a state of decay; rotten or putrid : a corrupt and rotting corpse.

  26. “I couldn’t imagine George Bush giving a damn about anyone in the military, much less one lowly enlisted guy.”
      -Bill Winter on Daily Kos

    Wow…talk about a wacky liberal who has no idea what he’s talking about.

  27. Winter served in the Marines and the Navy. He earned a law degree, worked for the Department of Justice and for Senator John McCain.  That’s right Joshua, he must be a “wacky liberal who has no idea what he’s talking about.”  Or could it be the commander in chief hasn’t had a clue since he was “born-again?”

  28. Or it could be that working for that idiot John McCain (not to mention law school) has completely distanced him from whatever he might have learned in the Marines and Navy.

  29. Dear Hammer:  Please google your ancient philosophy references before posting.  You’ll note that Plato died a natural death while it was Socrates who was sentenced to death by “pure democracy” as you put it.

    It’s not that your points aren’t valid, but I have a hard time paying attention to what you’re trying to say when I’m distracted by the fact that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    With sincerest thanks.

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