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February 18, 2017 12:04 AM UTC

Weekend Open Thread

  • 87 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“The less men think, the more they talk.”

–Charles de Montesquieu

Comments

87 thoughts on “Weekend Open Thread

  1. Look for the story of Jeanette Vizguerra, an immigrant taking sanctuary from deportation in a Unitarian church in Denver, to become a media circus over the weekend. It's already a national, and international story. Vizguerra has lived lawfully in the United States for over 20 years, and three of her four children are US citizens. She has applied for a U visa, which victims of violent crime may use to claim that they should not be sent back to the country which was the scene of the crime. Representative Ken Buck built his reputation on denying U visas to victims of crime.

    Look for David Williams to do a photo op outside the church, calling for Mayor Hancock and the pastor of the church, Mike Morran, to pay for providing sanctuary to Vizguerra, using his proposed ridiculous legislation.  Look for pro-sanctuary and anti-sanctuary dueling picketers.

    The church is already receiving threats of violence. Denver is once again going to become the pivot of worldwide controversy, centered on a slight, Mexican-American mother of four  taking shelter with her children in a liberal church.

    UPDATE: Channel 7 has posted statements of support for Vizguerra from Mayor Hancock, who confirmed that she has a U Visa in process, Rep. Polis, Rep. Bennet, and Sen. Gardner.

    1. My church.  The taxpayers are not footing the costs of her sanctuary.  Don't anticipate any "carnage" from Jeanette or her supporters.  Hope the same is true of Williams and his ilk.

      Have heard seemingly credible reports, and seen evidence, of checkpoints and undocumented roundups under guise of other operations by Denver Police. DPD vehemently denies. True or not, people are afraid to go out.

      1. To be completely accurate, from what I've read/seen, Ms. Vizguerra has NOT lived lawfully in this country. She's been here for 20 years, so she can hardly claim that she would be subjected to violent crime. It's a sad situation where some sort of clemency should be found. She does not sound like a threat. But, she should follow our laws and report for her ICE hearing. If that results in deportation, so be it. 

        1. According to the Post's article, Vizguerra has filed paperwork for a Uvisa stating that she had been a victim of a crime in 2012 and would be a valuable witness. Whether you agree with that law or not, it is the law, and should not be selectively applied.

          Her 2 misdemeanors over 20 years are related to her undocumented status. As she herself said in a Democracy Now interview:

          …supposedly, I am a criminal because I drove without a license, because I had expired stickers on my car, because I had false documents to work and put food on the table for my children. But what should we call you, Mr. President Trump, when you have been evading taxes for years, when the way that you’ve been acting is not in keeping with good conscience?

          AMY GOODMAN: That is often misunderstood in this country, that you, Jeanette, have paid taxes all of these years.

          JEANETTE VIZGUERRA: [translated] Yes, my husband and I have both paid taxes the whole 20 years that we’ve been living here. Every year, we have paid taxes. And we’ve contributed our labor. And what many people don’t know is that immigrants can’t access the benefits of those taxes, any of the programs. That all stays here with this country. So I would like to ask: If you’re going to deport me, are you going to return 20 years of labor and taxes to me before I go, everything that I’ve contributed here?

          This latest surge of ICE enforcement has gone beyond the normal procedures of looking for violent or dangerous criminals. ICE is casting a wider net, picking up people who are not criminals, in some cases, people who have legal status to be here or just "look like" they might be undocumented. This is Trump's witch hunt to please his base. It is inhumane and economically stupid. In many cases, it is denying people due process guaranteed by the 5th Amendment to the Constitution, for anyone, not just citizens.

          Someone like Vizguerra, with only their labor to offer, is kept in the shadows with no path to citizenship. You've worked in the social services system, CHB, and you know that it can take decades to "stand in line" and jump through all the hoops to become a citizen. Wealthy immigrants, on the other hand, can buy their way in. 

          Even those with rare technical skills, such as those the tech industries covet, would find their visas curtailed if Steve Bannon gets his way. Xenophobic Bannon is against all immigration, legal and illegal.

              1. Supongo que la congregación se reunirá con la Sra. Vizguerra y su familia el domingo. Espero que estén equivocados acerca de los manifestantes.

                ¿Crees que las cabezas de nuestros trolls han explotado todavía?

                Yo voy ahora.  Adiós.

          1. "victim of a crime in 2012…..city has papers…….”  If she wants to have credibility, how about producing the police report and what exactly was the crime to which she was subject to? All sounds conveniently vague and murky. Also according to the Post article, she has had numerous reprieves from the feds. And must wonder who is taking care of her kids while she pursues celebrity status?

            1. CHB, I'm preparing a longer post, which also will not convince you of anything, since you are predisposed to believe the worst of Mrs. Vizguerra.  I've seen no indication that she's "pursuing celebrity status". She seems to be a person of courage who has been reluctantly dragged into the limelight because she is refusing the deportation order.

              She is willing to be the face of deportation – so that people can see a more typical deportee, a parent trying to keep her family together, rather than Trump's murdering rapist or King's cantelope-calved drug smuggler.

              She has an immigration lawyer now, so presumably the 2012 Uvisa paperwork about the crime will surface in due time. As far as her kids, and who's taking care of them, that's the fricking point. She didn't want to be summarily packed off to detention and deportation, while her kids, who are citizens or protected by DACA, are left here wondering where Mom went. That happens to more people than you know. So she's taking care of her kids. At the church. Presumably, others from the church will volunteer to get her kids to school.

              1. Please no! A longer post, enough already. I guess you will share more links from  Al Jazeera, Huffington, KOS, NY Times and your other fake news sites. 

                    1. So, if all news sources are fake, do you believe only what comes out of Putin's mouth, by way of Trump's mouth? 

    2. What's the controversy?

      She came here illegally, she gets sent back to where she came from.

      You don't like the law, change it.

      When Obama was President and the Dems had the house and the senate, did they try to change it?  I don't think so.

      Dems would rather grandstand social problems than fix them.

      If they got rid of the problems, they would not be able to play their constant victim card.  It's what they do.

      1. Under Obama, there were multiple proposals for comprehensive immigration reform, to both keep secure borders, vet criminals, and allow a path to citizenship to bring people out of the shadows. These bills were all disingenuously scuttled by Cory Gardner, Ken Buck, Lamborn, and every other Republican congressperson, who wouldn't even allow immigration reform to come to a vote.

        So much for trying to change the law under Obama. You were aware of this when you wrote the question.

        But since you are such a law and order guy, I'm sure you would not blink at Trump's historic scorn for laws and rules as a building contractor, his scoffing at the norm of paying taxes, and now his winking at his closest aides collaborating with Russian enemies of the state. I'm sure you wouldn't stand for that, because you want every rule followed, especially as they relate to the security of our country.

         

        1. Wait, I thought Fraud, Crook, Liar, Hypocrite and Traitor were the new guiding principles upon which the GOP is based (now that they have the full control of the government).

          Trump is their hero, the very embodiment of their core values.  Being unstable and marginally insane helps too.

          C'mon ACHole admit you love your newfound glorious leader!

        2. MJ:

          And exactly how many of those attempts were made when the Dems controlled the executive, senate and house and could have passed them?

          None.

          Thanks for making my point.

          1. As you know, the first few years of Obama's term was occupied in passing health care reform, and pulling the country out from George Bush's recession and "two wars on a credit card" policies. As Democratic Presidents usually have to do while recovering from the financially ruinous policies of Republican administrations.

            In 2012, the "Gang of Eight" Senators attempted to pass bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform, which would have beefed up border security, continued Obama's aggressive deportations of criminals, and provided a path to citizenship for those who paid taxes and fines, learned English and passed a citizenship test.

            This cleared the Senate, but as I wrote previously, your precious Buck, Gardner, Tipton, Lamborn, et al, would not even let it come to a vote in the House.

        1. No one argues that undocumented immigrants are not human beings. But they should come here legally, even if there are long waiting lists & lines. If you agree with illegal entry by persons like Ms. Vizguerra, then you become part of the problem as the rule of law in this country goes down the tubes. 

          1. Actually, a number of people refer to them in terms that imply they are less than human.  A lot of those people are simply trying to have a better life than what they're escaping.  

            As for the rule of law in this country, I don't have a lot of respect for it as regards human beings.  When someone has enough money, they can ignore the rules they find inconvenient.   A system like that deserves to go down the tubes.

             

            1. I'm not keeping a crib sheet on who does and doesn't have a SkyGod on this blog, but Papa Francis has proven to be wise counsel: "generosity and prudence"

              On this day, the 75th anniversary of Executive Order 9066, let's make sure history informs our present actions.  We are a generous nation; we should welcome with open arms souls like Ms. Vizguerra – as we should anyone like her regardless of the color of their skin, their religion or their country of origin.  

              Trump's play to his base is neither generous or prudent. It's fear-based mongering unsupported by facts.

              I fully concur with Curmy's remark: we have become a country with two sets of rules: one for the haves and other for the have-nots   – a scenario that is unsustainable.  

                  1. You're an environmentalist, Duke. Where would we put another 20 or 50 million people who want to be here? How much more family farmland gets surrendered to urban sprawl? How much more land, like the already drained out South Park with water purchases by Aurora, loses their water rights to the Front Range?

                    1. C.H.B. – there are plenty of places to put people in this country.  Wray, for example, has about 300 fewer people than it did a decade ago; the same story goes for just about any rural community in the forgotten America Trump pretends to care about.  

                      Agriculture still uses the bulk of our water; there are several technologies that could dramatically reduce that consumption if we chose to deploy them. That would also take a change in federal farm policy to shift the focus away from things like growing corn over the Ogallala.  It's not a zero-sum game.  But it does take an holistic approach to how we allocate our natural resources.  

                      That means we might have to ask ourselves some hard questions.  One center pivot of irrigated corn, consuming 1.5 acre-feet of water per acre annually consumes 63,540,750 gallons.  An average family of four consumes 400 gallon/day or 146,000 gallons annually.  That means one pivot of irrigated corn is equal to the consumption of 435 average families.  From a local, economic perspective it begs the question: would I have an interest in one less quarter-section of irrigated corn and an additional 435 families in my community.  435 families buying groceries, gas, more kids in our under-utilized school buildings? More people to fulfill civic duty-roles? 

                    2. There are individuals in this nation who own millions of perfectly good, arable acres of land where no one lives. Why do they need all that land? Because people like you believe they have more of a right to sequester resources than the poor have to survive. This world, this nation in particular, has vast resources that are not being used for the good of our society. They are being kept by the wealthy for themselves.

                      There is no shortage of land and resources. There is simply a mis-allocation of those resources by greedy bastards who believe that they deserve to have it all to themselves.

                      When I see the cold-hearted attitude of the people who voted for that insane monster in the White House, I am incensed. I overheard someone say to a friend, "I voted for Trump, Please don't hold that against me" 

                      I am here to tell you now….I do hold it against you. If you voted for Donald Trump, then damn your soul to Hell. You have set a course for the humiliation and diminishment of America. You have not made America great again…you have made America a laughing stock and and humbled us before the world.

                      If our country survives the ineptitude and the insanity of this megalomaniac, it will be no thanks to likes of every greedy, fearful, racist bastard who voted for him.

                      If you voted for that disgrace, you have my undying enmity….

                      If you voted for that asshole….fuck you.

                       

                    3. You have to love Councilman Cox and his ability  to see other points of view.  I'm sure when he starts telling his constituents to "fuck you",  the Grand Junction City Council will be held in high esteem

                    4. @ CHB

                      in response to your post at 8:59. the boxes are wrong somehow.

                      So it bothers all you sensitive conservatives for me to use the language Alex Jones used about Obama and Clinton….how about that? I don't ever remember any one of you calling him out for using the same words.

                      I am done with your bullshit. For many years I have listened to oil and gas lawyers, lobbyists and the Republicans they own do the same thing you and that doofus that calls himself Porcine Poop (or something like that) are trying to pull. It goes like this….You steal from me, betray me, lie to me, take my future away from me, deport my family …and then tell me that I am being uncivil as though I have no reason to be so… I am being uncivil, so my opinion doesn't count. Well, CHB, if you don't like my rhetoric, I'm sorry..If you voted for Hillary, I'm not talking to you.

                      I am talking to the Trump people. 

                      You have unleashed a white supremacist, autocrat on our nation and given him unbelievable power. He is the presidents' chief advisor and it is he that is setting policy for our nation. He is a fascist..and you didn't bother to find that out. You don't ask Trump to prove anything he says. Because the truth doesn't matter to you. You voted for him because you feel you are a victim. Your white privilege..your male hegemony…your economic and moral superiority have been taken from you by all those …."others".

                      There is only one thing important to Trump… and his followers. Winning. I won, so I get to do whatever I want and you aren't supposed to ask me any questions. I won, so I get to destroy anyone I choose…

                      Well, CHB. I have been civil for too many years. To quote Alice Cooper…No more Mr. Nice Guy….

                      Don't read my posts…block me, petition Alva to banish me…whatever you feel like doing…but I am going to continue to call out Trump voters for the traitorous idiots they are.

                      Seig, Heil!

              1. Don't misunderstand, I don't decry anyone worshiping a Sky God ( I have several myself);  I just find it annoying when they use that God to justify their own crappy behavior towards others, and ignore that same God's directions to care for others.

                I like the Pope.  A lot.  He seems to be trying to follow the teachings of Jesus, which is why he makes so many people angry. 

                1. Hey Curmy – that wasn't a dig at you and I heartedly agree – I don't care whether you are an atheist, agnostic, Jew, Muslim, etc. Just keep your actions consistent with your words. As I said earlier, I'd put the morals of my atheist and agnostic friends up against any avowed follower of their chosen SkyGod(dess). 

                  1. Oh, no, I didn't see it as a dig.  I just wanted to make clear that it's not the Sky Gods (or Goddesses) I have a problem with.  It's people who use them as justification to do awful things to other people.    

                    1. This is a reply to Duke since there is no reply button at the bottom of his latest diatribe. When I hear language like that used by Duke, what comes to mind is something like: "Nice comments. With talk like that, you must be a Christian. Christians are the people who hate. And have so much anger directed towards others." 

                      "Damn your soul to hell, you have my undying emnity; f**k you; all if one voted for Trump. Actually, I held my nose and voted for Hillary. But I don't expect an avowed redistributionist leftist to believe anything outside of their personal political silo. 

            2. So what is your answer, then, curmudgeon, with no rule of law? Everybody buys guns, drives around in armored vehicles, and lives in fortresses?

              "a lot of those people are simply trying to have a better life than what they're escaping….."  So, it's not important for them to try and reform their own countries? And these are primarily economic migrants, not political refugees. Bearing in mind that the bulk of undocumented immigrants from the south now come from Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras; and Mexico is trying hard to close its southern borders?  

              1. I don't have an answer.  Just pointing out that your self-righteous talk about The Rule of Law is bullshit.    

                You want to say there's no room at the inn, that's fine.  It's not the America I grew up believing in.   

                 

                1. Curmudgeon: you're almost as good as Powerful Prune in putting words into peoples' mouths. If you were paying attention to this thread, I've acknowledged that there can be long lines and waits to legally immigrate to this country. Where you fall short is your implication that people shouldn't be following our immigration laws. Rather, they should just mosey across the border whenever they want. And since you don't believe in the rule of law, please share your home address so that interested parties can swing by for a monster booze & pizza party on your property. It can be done as a flash mob.

                  1. Are you practicing Trumpism now?  Accusing someone of doing something they didn't do, and then doing it yourself?    I never said those things, nor did I say you said anything.  

                    And, take your tremulous old white guy fears of what would happen without your idea of the Rule of Law and shove 'em.  I'm talking about the reality of how laws are enforced in this country.   Keep your goddamn fantasies of roving bands of scofflaws to yourself.    

                    1. Interesting to know that you appear to support the rule of law only when it fits your personal political views.

                      "roving bands of scofflaws……"  I believe they're called GANGS. Some of the worst come from Central America and many of them are in this country illegally. Guess you've never heard of MS-13 or Calle 18.

                      “Tremulous old white guy fears…….” Now, that is funny.

                    2. Wow.  I didn't even think you were being racial about your fantasies (watched The Purge a few times, did you?).   I thought it was the standard old white guy paranoia.

                      Thanks for clearing that up. 

                      Had to respond to your edit: My opinion of your precious Rule of Law vis a vis human beings has nothing to do with politics. Unless you’re admitting that your view is “Rich = Good, Poor = Bad”…which, wouldn’t surprise me much, now.

            3. Cur,

              Did I see you complaining about two systems of justice, one for the rich and one for the poor, when a Dem Senator's son was a one person crime wave in Boulder and got away with it?

              I don't remember seeing that.

                  1. Oh, no, I saw that.  Yeah, he got off because of money and political connections.  

                    What, did you think I wouldn't say that?  Wrong is wrong, regardless of party.

                    Wish you could understand that.

                     

                  2. Carnegie – you're the supreme asshole.  Why don't you come out from behind that curtain and make your statements with accountability? Can't we all agree that politicians kids should be off-limits?  I don't think either of us can appreciate just what their worlds are like in the pressure-cooker their parents political lives foists upon them (particularly when they are the daily subjects of trolls like you?).  Are you equally as indignant about Rand Paul's son being arrested for DUI with charges dropped? 

                    1. Of course not, AC would be kicked out of the GOP Brotherhood of Trolls if he admitted that he's no more indignant over one son's indiscretions as another.

                      His goal is merely to score propaganda points.  

                      Morals, ethics, or common sense are just minor inconveniences to be ignored in the pursuit of victory, whatever he thinks that represents.

                      Being the conscienceless sociopath pretty much makes AC the definitive Good Nazi Troll that he is.

          2. What about the folks who knowing hire undocumented immigrants and profit from the current situation?  How come you never talk about the other side of the equation?

            Rich corrupt business owner profits = slave wages for illegal immigrants.

            If this isn't just another racist pogrom than what about the fat cats who make the American taxpayer pay for the unemployment benefits of the American worker who didn't get hired to cut lettuce in the fields?  They are a significant players in this situation and you don't say bumpkus about them.  Why is that?

            1. Didn't get a reply from C.B. regarding those who profit from undocumented workers and who is going to pick our lettuce.  Typical three blind mice behavior.  See no corrupt business owners profiting on the misery of others.  Speak no comments about who will pick our lettuce and how much we are willing to pay for lettuce.  Hear nothing but how horrible those underpaid undocumented workers are doing all those undesirable jobs.

              What's the matter C.B?  No words of wisdom concerning all the American workers who are desperate enough to pick lettuce.

              1. Didn't know you were expecting a reply. The entire illegal immigrant scenario would largely disappear if the law was upheld and employers were actually held liable. You tell us; where are all the unemployed Americans who want to pick lettuce in the Imperial Valley; or harvest crops in the Deep South; or work in Weld County meat processing; or are willing to clean toilets in office buildings? Why is it that Colorado has a shortage now of construction workers who actually are American citizens? The notion of guest workers worked reasonably well in decades past; come here, work, and return home. If you want to stay and become a citizen, then apply. 

                It's a complicated issue and not readily translated by broad generalizations like "corrupt business owners profiting on the misery of others." MJ made a good point when she referenced the US Senate bipartisan proposal to deal with the 11 million here illegally. It was indeed unfortunate that the House refused to take it up; and the stage was then stolen by talk at how "illegals took all the jobs in your Rust Belt home towns; the jobs that weren’t stolen by China and Vietnam."  

                1. The unemployed Americans who want to pick lettuce? They don't exist. Karen and I patronize the local farmers' markets in the summer. I've talked to a lot of the farmers. Those field jobs go begging. Were it not for the migrant workers they wouldn't get done at all. I've heard many of the farmers talk about posting notices at universities, job service centers and just about every public place you can think of and getting no takers (not even in the depths of George the Younger's recession). And every time some "loyal, patriotic" politician starts going on about "American jobs for Americans”, the farmers start figuring out how many acres of crops they'll lose because the migrants will be afraid to come and harvest them. 

                  1. One of my Mexican immigrant students used to say with withering scorn that Americans don't take those dirty, rough jobs because they're afraid that they "might break a nail".

                    This  "hard work" value? There are wannabe citizens who hold that value even more dearly than native-born citizens.

  2. Two quotes from President Abraham Lincoln to ponder this President's Day weekend:

    DESPOTISM

    When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy.

    DANGER

    The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise — with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disentrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.
    –December 1, 1862 Message to Congress

  3. Adolf Hitler died on April 30, 1945.

    Donald Trump was born on June 14, 1946.

    If one believes in reincarnation, it ain't exactly that inconceivable a stretch…

  4. We didn't leave the stone age because we ran out of stones … and we aren't exiting the age of hydrocarbons because we've run out of dinosaur poop.  

    It's our future; it's clean, cheap and a job creator.  

    Well done, Pueblo. 

    Pueblo commits to 100 percent renewable energy

    The city has a history in mining and steel production, but leaders have been focusing on renewables in recent years, Atencio said. Pueblo is home to a plant for Denmark-based Vestas, one of the world’s largest wind turbine makers. Southeastern Colorado Water Conservancy District is planning to build a $12 million hydroelectric generation facility at Pueblo Dam that will be capable of producing 7.5 megawatts. The city also has community solar gardens.

    The resolution states the city plans to reduce the demand for electricity through energy-efficient public infrastructure, businesses, residences and appliances. The city aims to involve and educate citizens about renewable energy, and will work to ensure low-income residents reap the benefits.

    1. When we passed Amendment 37 in 2004 there were dire predictions from the Fossilonians that 10% penetration of renewables would cause our electrical grid to 'crash'.  Since then we've proven the Little Boys Who Cried Wolf wrong time and time again.  So while 45 tries to make dinosaur poop great again, the adults are moving on to 21st century energy resources. 

      Xcel has recently witnessed historic penetrations of wind.  Xcel's investment in wind power and 21st-century technology has yielded significant economic benefits for its's customers. 

      The resulting cost savings were (and are) passed on to its customers, to date yielding approximately $60 million in savings for a company investment of $3.8 million. Its wind production displaces approximately 11.7 million tons of CO2 emissions annually, too.

       

      Last month the Southwest Power Pool set a national record: 52.1%.  

      Wind Briefly Sets Record as Source for Electricity in U.S.

      "Now we have the ability to reliably manage greater than 50 percent wind penetration. It's not even our ceiling," Rew said.

       

  5. So is Senator Gardner holding any public events while he's home? I'm a constituent, and I'd like to ask him how the Republican replacement plan for the ACA will deal with preexisting conditions.

  6. Gardner has listed no President's week events on his website, nor on his Facebook page. Activists are holding a "With or Without You" town hall on February 25 at Byers Middle School. Gardner is invited, of course, and is the guest of honor. wink

    In this Post article, Gardner's staffer Alex Siciliano said that people can sign up to be on Gardner's next telephone town hall call.

     Spokesman Alex Siciliano said his boss has held regional telephone halls, including one to which about 100,000 Western Slope constituents were invited.

    To get on the call list, Siciliano said,  leave a voicemail, tell a Gardner staffer or send an e-mail through the senator’s official website. Gardner’s office tries to let people know about the town halls through multiple channels, including social media, people answering calls, a weekly newsletter and the website, he said.

    I haven't signed up for Gardner's weekly newsletter, but here's the link.

     

    1. Thank you.  I have signed up for the newsletter, which hopefully will tell me how to sign up for the telephone town hall, as I can't find it on his website.

      He'll probably block my number though – hasn't he implied he only represents Republicans?  I am quite obviously a Democrat.

            1. I could find nothing on his website and am not inclined to sign up for his newsletter. However, there are two alumni gatherings in restaurants that day in Alamosa. 

              One of these sounds like the kind of place you might find our ol' buddy Cory….wealthy alumni…? sure.

               

              Delancey Street Restaurant, 600 The Embarcadero, S…

              10:30am – 12:30pm 

               

              The Blue Door Restaurant & Bar, 1502 Saratoga …

              5:00pm -7:30pmMST

              1. It's on campus in the Student Union. The event is the annual Lincoln Day Republican dinner. Public is invited, but only ticket holders admitted. Saw it in the Valley Courier last week.

  7. So now the head of the Fascist Buffoon Party is ranting about a non-existent terrorist attack in Sweden yesterday.  Moddy, AC, quick volunteer to go there and help with rescue effort!  Your Great Pumpkin Leader needs your help!

    Trump's White House has now made up three terrorist attacks to sell their 

    1. Bowling Green
    2. Atlanta
    3. Sweden

    1. Okay Davie, I just popped in to see if anyone had posted about this yet. So there's not enough going on in the world? He has to make stuff up? Whoever followsThe Yam is going to have their work cut out for them trying to rebuild our international credibility. 

    2. It's a test….to see how far credibility can be strained before it breaks. As I've written elsewhere, it's also a calculated effort to muddy the boundary between fact and fiction – if everyone lies, then nothing is true. If all news is "fake", then why pay attention to the news?

      It is truly scary shit.

      1. Even John McCain is sounding the alarm:

        Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.) gave a staunch defense of the free press Saturday, noting that attacks on the media are “how dictators get started.”

        Speaking on NBC’s “Meet The Press,” to be aired Sunday, McCain took a swipe at President Donald Trump’s volleys against the Fourth Estate, particularly a Friday tweet in which the press was called the “enemy of the American people.”

        “If you want to preserve ― I’m very serious now ― if you want to preserve democracy as we know it, you have to have a free and many times adversarial press,” he added.

        McCain said that without a free press, “we would lose so much of our individual liberties over time.”

        1. To you, mama, Davie, and others with whom I have posted for years. I hope you will not be offended by the rhetoric I have chosen to use when addressing the Trump lovers who come here. I have changed nothing except my willingness to retain even a mote of civility and good manners when addressing one of the aforementioned idiots. Comity be damned. They are fools and should be treated as such.

          1. Civility is a choice. I'm certainly capable of cursing in print…..but, like yelling at one's class, it loses its effectiveness if overused….I try to pace myself wink

            As far as trolls, those whose purpose in posting is to bedevil, distract, demean and deflect “the libz”, they don’t deserve courtesy or civility….but they also don’t deserve my focused attention. Sometimes, it's easier just to not see their posts, so I usually block AC and PP.  I don't want to spend too much time countering whatever nonsense they post, since they don't read it and it wouldn't convince them, anyway. If I have the time and it's important enough to me to sort out my own thinking, or to provide others with cogent counter- arguments , then I might answer their claims.

            I also don't want this site to be so saturated with the F bomb and the like that it won't pass the filters when I sneak in a peek at work. (though I don't post during the work day).  I'd like for my students to be able to access the site in searches for dissenting opinions and articles.

            "Reasonable" non-trolling, non-Trump-supporting Republicans and Libertarians, like Elliot, CHB, and whomever else, do deserve our courtesy, since they also use it in their own postings. Outside of this forum, so many of my neighbors and students supported Trump – I think that they have been duped and used, and some will acknowledge it someday. I might disagree with 90% of what they post, but see no reason to attack them personally.

            We will need to ally with moderate Republicans and people of conscience in reining in this fascist regime.

             

             

            1. "Reasonable" non-trolling, non-Trump-supporting Republicans and Libertarians, like Elliot, CHB, and whomever else, do deserve our courtesy, since they also use it in their own postings.  

              I agree, mama, and I think I have always been fairly deferential and pleasant with conservative posters like R36, ajb, and like minded folks. (Though I have always enjoyed teasing Elliot)

              But I  disagree with this:

              I think that they have been duped and used, and some will acknowledge it someday. I might disagree with 90% of what they post, but see no reason to attack them personally. 

              Duped and used, mama? How stupid, or willfully blind must they be to be duped by this man? I don't think they will acknowlege they are wrong until someone verbally slaps them in the face and gives them a sound shake. They are in a hate and fear derived trance…enhanced and perpetuated by a right wing narrative that is driven by hate and profit…two very powerful motivators.

              In deference to your students and out of respect for you, I will try to avoid gratuitous use of the "f bomb", but I will not restrain myself when some Trumpian comes a'callin' with a load of "Trumpcrement"…

              No, Trumpian…you don't get a pass. You are personally responsible for this nightmare. How many times were you warned? Did you not listen because you hate somebody? Did you not listen because you don't care about democracy and this nation? Did you not listen because you think you are a victim?

              It doesn't matter why, Trumpian. It's on you…

              1. Duke,

                When I was talking about people who were duped, used, and willfully blind, I'm mostly thinking about folks in real life – old friends of mine, now alienated, relatives, good people I respect, except that they did vote for Trump, and now feel compelled to rationalize that vote.

                I stand by my statement that we will need their help in curbing this fascist regime, and it will probably take some catastrophe like being thrown off insurance or prescription drugs going up 1000%, losing their home or savings  to these GOP con artists.

                But I wouldn't presume to tell you how to treat people in your own life, or even just on this forum. You want to cuss them out, dismiss them out of hand, go for it. I prefer to argue them to death – if I have the time and energy, and they don't just mindlessly babble about "fake news" every time they see something unflattering to their preferred politician.

                Vger knows of what I speaketh.

                And if I don't have the time and energy to spare, I just ignore them, and I have a better day because of it.

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