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July 29, 2022 11:51 PM UTC

Weekend Open Thread

  • 25 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“In a false quarrel there is no true valor.”

–William Shakespeare, from Much Ado About Nothing

Comments

25 thoughts on “Weekend Open Thread

    1. “How will we solve the big issues facing America? Not Left. Not Right. Forward.”

      For all those searching to support Andrew Yang.  Or Christine Todd Whitman.  Or David Jolly.

      They tried to get people to run in Minnesota in 2022:  "Cory Hepola, a radio host, announced he was running for Governor of Minnesota as a member of the Forward Party in 2022.  He later withdrew from the race." Turned down by someone they wanted to run for AG.  No candidates for the state legislature.  Seems like running for a party that has no policy, no working structure or feet on the ground, and not much of a budget may not be a winning recruitment appeal.

      Now "They have also announced that the party would launch on September 24, 2022 with its first national convention in summer 2023."

      1. What on earth do they stand for?

        If they aren't pulling votes from the Republican Party, then they are trying to screw the Democrats. Sort of a Kristen Sinema sort of strategy.

        1. "What on earth do they stand for?"

          As the GOP has gone completely off the rails, first with its Tea Party psychosis, and more recently, by adopting neo-fascism and the cult of personality, while the Democrats dabble with socialism, a lot of people reject both premises and want less ideology and more problem-solving. 

          That's what this group is trying to cater to. And it's a good group of people.

          Unfortunately, with our first-past-the-post electoral system, while their intentions may be laudable, there is the real risk of ending up with some unintended and extremely unpleasant results.

          Think about Paul LePage who won two elections as governor of Maine because there was an independent running and who took a substantial number of votes from the Democratic candidate. Maine has since adopted ranked-choice voting which should prevent the problem from happening again.

          Unless and until we have ranked choice voting throughout the country, we are stuck with the two-party system.  angry 

          1. Fixed it for you: The Democratic Party is dabbling in Socialism Social Democracy.

            I mean, every single one of the big Social Democratic programs is extremely popular:

            Medicare,
            Obamacare,
            Social Security,
            Public Education,
            Mass Transit,
            Renewable Investment
            Anti-Pollution Regulations 
            etc.

            Yeah, I know that Republicans always scream "Socialism", but that is just an insult, not a descriptor.

            1. So, if Dems are dabbling in socialism, and Forward is not left (or right), why was the first thing I ever heard about Yang his support for Universal Basic Income? Seems to be to the left of at least the centrist Dems to me, and I'm not just talking Sinemanch here. Here's one estimate of $30-40 trillion with a T over 10 years, and while I can consider the benefits relative to the cost, it ain't exactly Adam Smith's invisible hand either!

              1. Have any of Yang's associates in Forward (e.g., David Jollie, Christie Todd Whitman) signed onto to his Universal Basic Income plan? 

                If so, that would be interesting.

                1. Did the world's quickest Monday morning pre-work Google searches, and found nothing about Jolly/Whitman's views on UBI, plus I don't believe I found any mention of UBI on Forward's website.

                  So far, it seems to me as if Yang's strategy is to flood social media with publicity about the party (it's annoying if you follow him, IMO), and his ratio of publicity-to-policy has been pretty lopsided. I think you touched on the upcoming sticking point for this "party," in that ultimately they'll have to squabble over the platform, the personalities, the heirarchy, and all the other typical junk parties go through.

                  Yang's trying to do the "look, we're riding the white horse of goodness over the muck that Rs and Ds have given us," but at some point the white horse will inevitably take on muck, if it hasn't already.

                  1. “if Yang’s strategy is to flood social media with publicity about the party (it’s annoying if you follow him, IMO)”

                    I don’t follow him, so I avoid the annoyance. My recollection was that he was a little quirky when he ran for president. Not as quirky as Maryanne Williamson but still quirky.

                    You are correct that this kumbaya approach will only go so far and eventually they would be forced to take positions on issues which will set them at each other.

            2. “I mean, every single one of the big Social Democratic programs is extremely popular:”

              Most people are happy with the level of stuff they currently receive through the government (i.e., the stuff you listed) but do not necessarily want to expand the list like the hard left wants to do.

              Obamacare is an excellent program: it has made health care both affordable and available. OTOH, Medicare for All – whether they want it or not – would be a disaster. Better to have Obamacare with a public option.

              As for student loan debt relief and free college and universities, that too is an overkill solution. Better to take steps to make postsecondary education available and affordable, than more free giveaways. (I had to pay off my college and grad school loans. Why can’t others do the same?)

               

              1. Student loan debt forgiveness isn't a "free giveaway". Many people of my generation, particularly women and minorities who dominate lower-paid jobs, like teaching in my case, have paid the principal off on their college loans – many times over.

                Yet the balance never actually gets paid down enough to matter, and the interest compounds year after year, much to the delight of the private loan companies that originated and still profit from these loans. I'm on an income- tied repayment plan – and likely will be until I die. 

                Why can't others do the same, you ask. From the little I understand of your biography, you are a partnered gay man with no kids and a reasonably high income. You did not have dependents to raise and put through college, and your resources made it easier to repay the debt. Others are not as fortunate.

                Student loan debt disproportionately burdens poor and working class folks, especially minorities. I don't expect you to have compassion or a social conscience about that – I don't think those are your strong suits.

                But you might consider the capitalist arguments for debt cancellation, from Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen. Basically, the argument is that, if unshackled from student debt, people will spend elsewhere, as they did during the pandemic, when personal savings rose, debt was paid, durable goods were bought, and the economy defied expectations in its resiliency.

                 

                1. Paying off one’s financial obligations is an important part of growing up.

                  And what happens when someone borrows more for a mortgage than he/she/they can afford to repay? Oh wait, we already had that happen about 15 years ago. 

                  You know who doesn’t pay his debts? Donald Trump. Do you really want to contribute to a culture of deadbeats?

                  I’m sure Trump would say that he isn’t a deadbeat but he is smart because he can get others to pay his debts.

                  PS I do think that there ought to be programs available to allow for debt relief by public service. Those teachers who are taking low-paying jobs should be given some relief from the principal and interest owed on the loans. (Maybe just repay the principal and forgive the interest.)

                  Similarly, doctors who go where no one else will go should get some debt relief. But those doctors will still have medical degrees and substantial earning capacities to enjoy long after they did their time in the La Junta General Hospital ER. Why should I have to pay for it completely?

                  Tree, you are not completely wrong. No one who wants to go to college and has the grades and ambition should be deprived because of money. But there are ways of addressing the problem of financial ability short of the free-stuff-for-all solution.

  1. Thought for the day. Republicans say taxes on businesses kills jobs because it takes away money a company could otherwise spend hiring people.

    How?

    If the spend more hiring more, that is a cost and comes out before profits. And only profits are taxed.

    ‘There is a bit of truth to this in that a growing company needs more reserves in the bank before hiring more people to be able to continue paying them during slowdowns. But that’s generally a proportionally small amount.

     

  2. Ranked choice voting is one of their stated goals. As I am already independent and living in a one-party city, I am very interested in seeing what they have to offer.

  3. Ron DeathSentence over Mike Pence in 2024. WOTD from Stev M

    But Trump fans — even the ones who might be starting to sour on him — don’t believe that America was “great again” in the Trump years because a fine team put excellent policies into place. They think it was all vibes — Trump’s vibes. They think America and the world were better in the Trump years because Trump was tough, smart, and crafty, a bully and a rule breaker. I’m sure they can’t explain how that helped him bring about paradise on earth. He just did it with Trumpness.

    To the fans, the outward manifestation of Trumpness is that you say and do things that infuriate your enemies, and you get away with a lot of them. Ron DeSantis has Trumpness. Mike Pence doesn’t. But Pence doesn’t grasp any of this. He thinks primary voters will judge him on proximity to Trump rather than shared attitude.

    1. A different perspective on US public education — The Economic Policy Institute series on Teacher shortages [and the consequences]. 

      There will continue to be some students who are well educated, able to take on challenges and be productive.  Insistent parents and motivated teachers will continue to have ways to find each other for the benefit of the students. Some activities draw students in and they learn without a formal curriculum [one favorite example from my youth long ago — cheerleaders who learned to carefully prepare, proofread, and THEN copy their work on to large posters to show off].

       

       

    2. That Trump got elected is proof that a vital chunk of the educational'' system doesn't work.

      Start teaching civics again. And American history from a variety of perspectives. And geography. Lumping them together in so-called social studies'' has produced at least two generations of Americans who skimmed civics, history and geography and learned none of them.

       

      1. Some districts require Civics to graduate. The common core standards in their present iteration require teaching American history from a variety of perspectives…which is precisely why the religious right is pissed off about it. They’d much rather continue promoting the “Manifest Destiny” narrative which left so many viewpoints off.

        Geography is taught primarily at the upper primary and middle school levels.

        1. Bear in mind that my grade school had 50 kids total in all 8 grades and just two teachers.  We often got a bit informal.  I was so far ahead of grade level I could read anything I wanted and most of it was history.

    3. I was on a panel a few years ago where everybody decried the state of public education.  Finally, I noted that we were all public school graduates and asked: "If our schools were so bad, why are we all so articulate?"

       Good question.

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