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February 27, 2011 07:02 AM UTC

So... is this the best you've got?

  • 48 Comments
  • by: bjwilson83

I’m wondering if anybody has a better response to this guy than “you f***ing whackos”.

Please, somebody enlighten me as to why it is ok to use government force to coerce union dues out of workers?

Comments

48 thoughts on “So… is this the best you’ve got?

    1. You know what I like most about you, BJ? You keep trying to paint the left as radical America destroyers, even if all you have is an obscure youtube video or a guy in a costume chasing down a Senator.

      Personally though, I can’t really side with the Tea Party under any circumstance. They aren’t just anti-tax and anti-big government, they’re anti-me.

  1. by the fake David Koch?  

    Can you say ‘corporate trollop?’ Or ‘fake Tea Party PR campaign’?  How about ‘Wisconsin bought by the highest bidder–our people be damned I got a sugar daddy and I ain’t looking back.’?  That’s the GOP ‘leadership’ today–streetwalkers.  Sociopaths and sycophants–selling out America to benefit their wealthy corporate masters.  “Yes, sir, Mr. Koch…’David!’–sir, whatever you say, sir.”

    1. that mealy-mouthed motherfucker on Meet the Press just a few minutes ago. I took notes and have much more to say on this subject…but first…I gotta go watch my granddaughter play volleyball.

      later.

        1. you guys have this little racket all set up to elect Democrats by extracting money out of people who wouldn’t otherwise want to support them. I for one am glad that someone is finally willing to stand up to this corrupt racket. You guys played your worst tricks to try and take him down, and you got nothing. If you had even bothered to think a minute before you posted this, you would realize that the fact Scott Walker doesn’t know it’s not David Koch means that he’s never even talked to Koch before!

          1. He probably never had talked to him before…he only had wet dreams about it.

            The Koch brothers are responsible for the millions of dollars that got Walker elected.You can bet your ass he knew THAT.

            1. Soros is responsible for getting a ton of Dems elected, but I doubt many of them have talked to him personally. In case you missed it, we had this little thing called campaign finance reform that Dems in particular capitalized on to increase the influence of third party organizations in politics.

  2. about the Republican Party’s opposition to public sector collective bargaining rights–why are they opposed to public workers’ having the same rights at the table, when negotiating their health care, their pensions, their wages, safety conditions at the workplace, complaints and grievances, et al, as the private sector does?

    How does being a public employee exempt someone from deserving the same rights as someone working in the private sector? Rights for some but not for all? How very 19th century.

     

    1. I don’t think they make a philosophical differerentiation between sectors.

      It’s just that unions only represent about 7% of private sector workers( hardly a threat to the Koch brothers mission of driving wages down to match those of India)while over 40% of public sector workers are union members.

       

    2. First of all, collective bargaining is not a “right”. Show me where it is listed as a right in the Constitution or Bill of Rights.

      That said, collective bargaining does have it’s place. However, it has been abused over the last decade, to the point that union members get two to three times the healthcare and pension benefits of everybody else, and they don’t even have to pay for it! They have gamed the system by using the bogeyman of “the rich” to stick taxpayers with the bill, and as a result our states have been bankrupted and the poor, not the rich, have been left with the bill.

      But in fact this is not even about collective bargaining. It is about ending the vicious cycle in which union bosses force workers to join their union and pay dues, and then use this money to a) pay themselves lavish salaries and b) elect Democrats, who will pass laws which allow them to extract even more money from their members. It encourages corruption and should really be prosecuted under RICO laws. And it’s even worse when these jobs are public sector jobs, funded directly by the taxpayer.

      All Scott Walker is saying is that people should be allowed to put the money the currently pay in union dues toward their healthcare and pensions instead. If they did that, the budget could be balanced and they wouldn’t even have to take a cut. This is not even about cutting benefits; it is about balancing the budget by ending the outrageous amounts of money fleeced from taxpayers by public sector unions.

      1. I heard one of the AWOL Dems on the radio the other day and they admitted that they will eventually have to go back, take the vote, and pass the bill. They are only stalling in order to play politics with this thing by trying to stir up anger on the left in advance of the 2012 election cycle.

      2. It was a decent and respectful answer and I appreciate that.

        Second, no false premises there because I never claimed collective bargaining is in the Constitution. So please don’t read things into my comments that I’m not stating. Don’t make shit up and attribute it to me.

        Third, union organization and collective bargaining are recognized internationally by the United Nations in their 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

        Fourth, this is about union busting, not balancing a budget. If we could at least have an honest conversation about what Walker is attempting to do here, I’d be a whole lot more inclined to participate with you.

        Fifth, this is most definitely about collective bargaining. What you said here is total fabrication:

        All Scott Walker is saying is that people should be allowed to put the money the currently pay in union dues toward their healthcare and pensions instead.

        If that’s what you think collective bargaining is about, you might want to do a little reading up on the subject. Or read my comment which you replied to and save yourself some time.

        Public employees in Wisconsin agreed to all of the concessions in this bill regarding their pension and health care increases. All of them. This bill would be passed and on the Governor’s desk by now if the Republican controlled State Assembly and Walker hadn’t decided to go for the gold and strip Wisconsin state employees of every right they have under collective bargaining. They’ve had these rights in place for 75 years. The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees was founded in 1936 in Madison. You’re going to strip away 3/4 of a century worth of rights under the guise of claiming our country’s current financial woes are all due to unions? Good luck with that one.

        And last but not least, why do you think union workers donate their fees and use them to elect Democrats? Because Democrats aren’t the party trying to strip them of their right to organize. Would you contribute to a party that has one goal–to screw you over? No, you wouldn’t. And neither will I.  

        1. They have taken untold millions that they never toiled to earn,

          But without our brain and muscle not a single wheel can turn.

          We can break their haughty power, gain our freedom when we learn

          That the union makes us strong.  

        2. Unions have outrageous levels of power and money today, at the expense of the rest of us. It is about balancing the budget, both now and in the future. Union overreach is the REASON states have such a hard time balancing their budgets.

          Question for you: why did FDR, a hero of progressives, oppose collective bargaining for public sector employees?

          I have no problem with union workers donating fees to elect Democrats. But it should be voluntary. Currently, conservatives and independents are forced to support Democrats through their union dues. Unions are gaming the system.

          1. collective bargaining. Then again, (and I mean this sincerely), I have no idea why he supported Japanese internment camps.

            To the rest of your points, I think we’ll just agree to disagree but again, good conversation and thanks for it, BJ.  

            1. Here’s why:

              All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

              http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu

              And I would suspect that he supported Japanese internment camps because progressives are in favor of the heavy hand of government using force to control everything. That is why I do not like progressives.

              1. The desire of Government employees for fair and adequate pay, reasonable hours of work, safe and suitable working conditions, development of opportunities for advancement, facilities for fair and impartial consideration and review of grievances, and other objectives of a proper employee relations policy, is basically no different from that of employees in private industry. Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government.

                FDR goes on to say that the organizing of gov’t employees is good and natural, but that they shouldn’t be able to strike.

                1. Since you missed it the first time, I’ll re-quote:

                  All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service.

                   

            1. The one that connects Glenn’s nightmares with reality.  So far they have just covered ‘factless talking points.’  I hear they’re having some difficulties finding course materials.  

      3. But when we compare apples to apples, we find that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation than comparable private sector workers. The comparisons-controlling for education, experience, hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship, and disability-demonstrate that full-time state and local public employees earn lower wages and receive less in total compensation (including all benefits) than comparable private sector employees.

        http://www.epi.org/publication

        Post what you got, and skip Manatee or the Beckanoid.  

            1. http://blog.nj.com/njv_bob_bra

              Nothing destroys the fun of an argument more than facts. They get in the way of rhetoric and turn black-and-white issues into muddy shades of gray. That’s nowhere more true than in the fight over pay for New Jersey public employees.

              Leave it to Rutgers, New Jersey’s state university, to hold a conference that raises questions about popular contentions – for example, that public employees make much more than private, that they are the highest paid anywhere, or that their numbers are multiplying out of control.

              Not necessarily so, say some experts on labor and management relations who presented their findings in New Brunswick the other day.

              …According to Keefe, comparing private and public employees with the same educational level, experience and work schedule shows private employees make 11 percent more in wages and 5 percent more in total compensation than public workers.

              “It’s hard to show that public workers are overpaid compared to private sector workers,” said Keefe, but he quickly added: “Even though their wages are lower, it’s also hard to argue they are underpaid.”

              In other words, it’s not simple.

              Using the latest federal data, Keefe said the average total compensation for workers in the private sector with bachelor’s degrees is $89,041 compared with $56,641 for public workers.

        1. As the First Amendment gives people an explicit right “to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

          Like the old Prego spaghetti sauce commercial said, “it’s in there.”

    3. Not that I agree:

      In the private sector the unions will only push so hard, as they know their demands can bankrupt the employer, and then no-one has a job.

      In the public sector, since the unions are negotiating with people they help elect and there is no pushback from bankruptcy, wages and benefits will be given away more easily.

      Of course, it’s really about removing a funding source from Democrats, and since there are so few unions left in the private sector, the public sector unions are where the money is.

  3. And hat tip to the guy who wrote about it at Daily Kos because I haven’t seen this posted or talked about anywhere, including there. From the New York Times on down, every single reporter has repeated this verbatim…and gotten it wrong.

    Maybe, because like fools, we all took Walker’s word for truth when he said he wanted “state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans.”

    Except they already are–100%.

    Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, created the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not.

    Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

    How can that be? Because the “contributions” consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.


    The key problem is that journalists are assuming that statements by Gov. Scott Walker have basis in fact. Journalists should never accept the premise of a political statement, but often they do, which explains why so much of our public policy is at odds with well-established principles.

    The question journalists should be asking is “who contributes” to the state of Wisconsin’ s pension and health care plans.

    The fact is that all of the money going into these plans belongs to the workers because it is part of the compensation of the state workers. The fact is that the state workers negotiate their total compensation, which they then divvy up between cash wages, paid vacations, health insurance and, yes, pensions. Since the Wisconsin government workers collectively bargained for their compensation, all of the compensation they have bargained for is part of their pay and thus only the workers contribute to the pension plan. This is an indisputable fact.

  4. As I walked away from the rally on Saturday, I was confronted by one of the very few counter-protesters, who shouted at us “we gave you the right to form a union”.

    Really?  Even if I were to assume that this man was in the armed services (and thank him if he was), the armed services did not give us any of our rights – they serve our country with the best intentions to protect this nation and keep it whole, but as the Declaration of Independence notes, we are endowed with certain inalienable rights, and Governments are instituted by the consent of the governed to uphold these rights.

    Aside from the formal codification of the 75 year old National Labor Relations Act, which being enacted by Congress and not overturned by the Supreme Court gives unionization and collective bargaining rights the presumption of being Constitutional, unions gain their basic rights from the 1st Amendment freedom of association, and the right to collective bargaining comes from the common law freedom to choose someone to represent you in contract negotiations.

    As for the guy who apparently thought that since he “gave” us the right to unionize that we were either ungrateful bastards or that he could take it away just as easily, I would like to remind any anti-union people reading this: union workers and supporters died to secure their right of freedom of association that we call a union.  That is a part of Colorado’s history; if you don’t know it, I suggest at the least a trip down to Ludlow…  That right, described in the 1st Amendment, was held not by the Army or National Guard (who were sent against union workers), but by the People themselves.

  5. Having just posted that collective bargaining rights come from common law rights to contract negotiation representation, I won’t now turn around and say that enforced union dues collections are somehow legally ideal.

    However, non-union workers in a union shop wind up getting union benefits even if they don’t negotiate with knowledge of the union’s terms – and even more so if they do have that knowledge.  (And frankly, in today’s market, most places don’t do much in the way of contract negotiation – if you’re an individual, there may be some monetary flexibility in your contract, but the rest of the benefits package and terms of employment are take it or leave it.)  So by extension, if non-union workers are getting the benefits of the union contract, it makes some sense for them to pay the union for the negotiated benefits.

    Since in most places political funds for the unions must be collected separately (is it mandatory opt-in now, or are most places still opt-out?), non-union workers don’t have to pay for anything other than the representation at the contract table.

    Again, it’s part of our labor law and has been for a long time, and the courts have not seen fit to overturn those laws as unconstitutional.

  6. Thanks for bringing nothing new to the discussion, Beej. Better minds than mine were able to deflate all your ridiculous talking points quite well.

    What I find fascinating about this entire Wisconsin vs. union fight is the way the Republicans managed to once again change the subject. We are no longer looking at the real villains of the financial crisis. We have turned our torches and pitchforks away from irresponsible bankers and Wall St. hooligans and pointed them at police officers and teachers! Seriously?!? The most irritating part is that Republicans are getting away with it.

    Empty headed lemmings like Beej are trained to unquestioningly repeat whatever his corporate-Republican masters want him to. He probably didn’t even pause before attacking teachers as overpaid, pampered, budget-busters.

    Remember when people actually advocated for teachers? What changed? Are they suddenly getting million dollar bonuses even though they’re responsible for ruining the economy? Last I looked they are still being told to do more with less for less money. Same with every other public employee sector I can think of. Do more with less and watch your pay get frozen or even cut. Oh and you’ve been recast as the villain.

    We’re definitely gonna beat China & India with shitty teachers and underpaid cops, firefighters, etc.

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