Tuesday Open Thread

“The spirits of our foolish deeds haunt us, with or without repentance.”

–Gilbert Parker

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26 Community Comments, Facebook Comments

  1. PseudonymousPseudonymous says:

    “The only one with a very distinct Medicare for All plan out there is Bernie Sanders.”

    • RepealAndReplace says:

      That's a relief.

      Bernie has now taken to trashing Elizabeth Warren as a corporatist. Doesn't that show how detached he is?

      The problem is that once Bernie starts sliding into 3rd or 4th place, and the left starts to coalesce around Warren, he will start screaming about the system being rigged – again.

      And when Biden, Warren or Harris ends up being the nominee, Trump picks up on the rigged system mantra, and enlists the support of all the disgruntled Bernie Bros.

      • kwtreemamajama55 says:

        I don't recall Bernie ever "screaming about the system being rigged", although there is plenty of evidence that it was, including from Donna Brazille, who would know.

        Knowing how much you enjoy rehashing 2016, I thought I'd just give you that tidbit to chew on.

        However, I believe that you are partly right – Bernie will start sliding into 3rd or 4th place, and people will coalesce around Warren. (whom I support) That's already happening, but I haven't seen any "screaming" from Bernie. The "amendment king" is a pragmatic old dude, and I think he will accept it. The "corporatist" dig you referenced was Bernie's tweet about 3rd way Dems like our own Hickup and Bennet.

        Disgruntled "Bernie Bros" were mostly mythical; 90% of we Sanders supporters voted for Hillary, as Bernie asked us to.  However, the "disgruntled Bernie Bros" were a very big troll-generated bot plague on social media, and you seem to be doing your part to spread that influence here.

        Certainly Trump (or his smarter foreign helpers) will pick up on any cracks in Democratic unity, and attempt to widen them. It's already happening.

        Every time that you promote, on this forum, memes and posts that are Russian and foreign-generated – that attempt to divide progressive voters and Democrats, like what mayhem you predict the "Bernie Bros" will do, you are helping foreign influencers.

        You're never going to support Bernie; you said that you wouldn't even vote for him if he's the nominee. (So much for supporting Dems instead of 3rd parties, right?)

        But I would ask you to a) not be an a-hole about it – don't lump all past and present Bernie supporters, fake bot accounts, and modern  progressive voters into one category you call "Bernie Bros" or "LWNJs".

        And don't help them to divide us further.

        • Bernie re-tweeted the article saying how "the establishment" was ready to "compromise" on Warren vs Bernie. Maybe not screaming, but starting to set up the bros for a whine-fest.

          • kwtreemamajama55 says:

            I found that tweet, and it referenced a Politico article, not the Cutter quote. It could be seen as a soft dig at Warren; they are primary rivals, after all.

            But they have been careful to stick to issues (college debt, childcare, abortion, worker's rights, health care) on which they are in close agreement. They do have minor policy differences. They are both trying to stick to the high road, which is commendable, and I wish every Dem would.

            When you write things like "setting up the bros for a whine-fest", it does perpetuate the 2016 divisions and labels which were and continue to be devastating for Democrats –  because we are still in intra-party conflict about whether Dems will promote more progressive or more corporate-friendly policies.

            If you look at the policies the Democratic presidential candidates are promoting, you can see that battle shaping up; you can also see that the real energy is on the progressive side. Where both Warren and Bernie live and work. I think you will say that the majority of voters are more centrist – but I think you might be surprised at how people really feel when you drill down on policy.

            I recently talked with my 83 year old godmother – a spitfire, originally-Republican former prosecutor, sharp as a tack still. She supports Hickenlooper, because "he's not a socialist". But she wants universal health care as soon as possible, which is the Sanders plan. Talk with any indebted college student, and they are all in for Sanders' #cancelstudentdebt plan.

            So that's what I'd ask you to do – stick to facts. Stick to policies. Stick to observable reality. When/if the "bros" start "whining", then condemn the whining if it's destructive, but be aware of the foreign origins of some of it, and that the writers do not have any candidates, nor our democracy's, interests at heart.

             

             

        • VoyageurVoyageur says:

          If you're going to keep on rewriting history, mj, you'll have to erase a lot of the vicious attacks Nina Turner, Jeff Weaver and other top bernistas made on hillary and the party for weeks after the convention.  You yourself filed numerous post convention attacks, including one purporting to show a photo showing 800 delegates walking out after hillary's nomination. The New York Times reported that "dozens" walked out.

          You were so besotted that you never got around to writing a diary you had long promised on la senadora's health care plan.  INstead, it was day after day snipping at real democrats and yearning for your amendment king –  lord, how many times have you posted that link?

          Yeah, you finally voted for Hillary, but it took you a long time to get over your mad.

          So lay off RandR.  You've been twice the source of discord he ever has.

          What is it that so infuriates you about people who disagree with your uber left politics?

          • kwtreemamajama55 says:

            Have you ever noticed that most people on here won't engage with you? Most like talking policy and politics, but dislike playing your dumb "insult game". Reflect on that sometime.

            • VoyageurVoyageur says:

              Boy are we projecting!  I think a lot more engage with me than with you.  Are you denying you wrote all those sore loser posts in 2016?  They are still there, you know.

        • RepealAndReplace says:

          You're never going to support Bernie; you said that you wouldn't even vote for him if he's the nominee. (So much for supporting Dems instead of 3rd parties, right?)

          First, Bernie Sander isn't a Democrat.

          Second, you will recall that immediately after I threatened to consider a third party candidate  in a Trump v. Sanders race, I posted a follow-up in which I said I would have to consider voting for the Bernie and much would depend on who his running mate was and whether the Republicans kept the Senate.

          He did scream about the system being rigged. In fact, everything that comes out of his mouth is a scream.

          90% of Bernie supporters may have supported Hillary. As a Clinton supporter, to those 90 %, I say, "Thank you!" But 10 % did not. And in MI, WI and PA, that 10% was enough to throw the election. Thank you, Bernie Bros.

          • VoyageurVoyageur says:

            They only did what Vladimir wanted them too.  Apparently, Bernie Bros is "useful idiots" in Russian.

          • kwtreemamajama55 says:

            I think we've both said (written)  our pieces. We won't agree.  I'm still going to push back when you post divisive labels like "Bernie Bros" "LWNJs" etc, that group all progressive democrats under those labels, with dire predictions about what these evil forces will do to screw things up.

            I still ask that you consider (and investigate, if possible), the sources of any new "Bernie vs____" or "Bernie Bros did______" rumors you find online, before you post them here.

            Find out if they are real people. Find out if what they are warning/ complaining about is true. Stick to facts, avoid emotionally loaded language like "screaming". Please.

            • Eh, there is a real phenomenon of Bernie Bros. It's true that lots of centrists like to label anyone to their left a "Bernie Bro", but there's also a bunch of sexist white guys who supported Bernie and yell at people who are critical of Bernie, regardless of what sort of criticism is being leveled or if it's leveled from the right or left of Bernie.

              • kwtreemamajama55 says:

                "A bunch of sexist white guys" you've actually met in person or names/faces on social media?

                I had all kinds of those types "friend" me on FB when I was supporting Bernie – then they started sending unbelievably crude and nasty stuff. I reported them. Turned out most were bots.

                • Some I've met in person, but mostly I've met on social media. But, no, they weren't bots. They were established voices who sometimes even use their real faces. Even if you like Bernie, it's not helpful to deny that there are toxic elements to his support, just like there were toxic elements to Clinton's support. The term Bernie Bro has been broadly misused, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

                  • kwtreemamajama55 says:

                    The Bernie supporters I met in person were mostly women or men my age (>50) – cranky boomers who were tired of empty promises, remembered relative peace and prosperity of their youth,  and ready for meaningful change.  Our small town caucus, though, was swamped with Bernistas – and most were young, 30ish Latinos or Dems coming out of the woodwork. I wouldn't classify any of them as "sexist white guys".

                    I still think that the "Bernie Bro" phenomenon was mostly a term of convenience the media coined to belittle his supporters. What I saw online was gross, but again, I have no way of verifying that these were real people, and know that some were not.

                    I actually almost got myself banned from kos for criticizing Hillary's corporate ties, and got myself banned from a little blog – caucus99percent.com – for criticizing  the pro-Putin, pro-Trump posts of some "Bernie and Stein supporters". They were almost certainly trolls. I said that. I got banned.

                    Every candidate has some toxic supporters – I just think in this time when we know that foreign influencers are trying their best to delude and distract us, it behooves us to do our very best fact checking and stick with what we know to be true.

                    Even my own family members, who know better, have passed on memes or articles that were half truths or distortions , intended o deepen the divide between Sanders and Clinton, reopen the 2016 wounds, distort AOC's message,  and get people to throw up their hands in disgust, saying, "They're all corrupt, they're all liars, who gives a f*ck about politics anyway."

                    Sorry to ramble. I know you're some kind of socialist, not a Democrat, so may not be relevant to you. But yep. Some toxic Bernie supporters, not IMHO enough to justify the "Bernie Bro" stereotype.

                    • Obviously not every Bernie supporter was a Bernie Bro. I was very careful not to say or imply that. There were lots of women and people of color who supported him. But the existence of non-Bernie Bro supporters of him doesn't make the Bernie Bros not be real.

                      And, like, I know that it's massively overused. I've been called a Bernie Bro despite neither being a guy nor a supporter of Bernie Sanders. But overuse and misuse aren't the same as non-existence.

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      Actually, mj, Death Pigeon is an anarcho syndicalist.  I'm not kidding.  So was J.A. Dodd if you remember him.

                      I did a paper on that rara avis back in college.  Otherwise, Google it.

                       

                    • I'm not a syndicalist. I prefer Bonanno over Rocker. I am, tho, an anarchist and a socialist (specifically a communist). I've even (self-)published stuff talking about communism (back in late April of this year).

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      I'll see your Banana and raise you Thorstein Veblen.  At least, he lived in the real world.

                    • Alfredo Bonanno is literally a real person who's currently alive, lol.

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      I didn't say Yeswe Haveno Bananas wasn't a real person.  I merely noted
                      he doesn't live in the real world.

                       

                      tee hee

                  • MADCO says:

                    I cannot reply below.

                    Winning is a tricky combination of factors. And they include messaging and unity.

                    If the electorate is to have a chance to elect a candidate from a new party, they'll need to succesfully blend those factors.

                    The supporters of other candidates rarely appreciate being trashed and condescended to. Especially in Colorado where until not long ago the Ds were perfectly happy to brag on their years of D purity even though they were also the same years  of losing, losing, losing, losing.

                    they were red state D's fighting. So it's all good, yeah?
                     

          • MADCO says:

            Well, the DNC Rules Committee had more than enough time to address it – but still, a candidate need not be a Democrat to be the nominee.

             

            So shut up.
             

  2. Diogenesdemar says:

    “The expression is ‘locked and loaded.’ [As Trump:] I’m telling you, we were cocked and loaded, we were at Defcock 5, about to rain down a little cock and awe.” — STEPHEN COLBERT

    “Even worse, Trump made the same mistake when he said he’s between a rock and a hard place.” — JIMMY FALLON

    “‘Cocked and loaded’ sounds like the name of a Tom Green movie where a guy takes a road trip with a rooster.” — SETH MEYERS

     

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/25/arts/television/seth-myers-trump-fight-club.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

     

  3. itlduso says:

    Putin = Trump.  Trump = Putin.  When you understand this, the pieces fall into place much easier.

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