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April 29, 2010 03:44 PM UTC

Thursday Open Thread

  • 75 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“Public calamity is a mighty leveler.”

–Edmund Burke

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75 thoughts on “Thursday Open Thread”

  1. Hey capitalism is a gamble!

    http://online.wsj.com/article/…

    The oil well spewing crude into the Gulf of Mexico didn’t have a remote-control shut-off switch used in two other major oil-producing nations as last-resort protection against underwater spills.

    The lack of the device, called an acoustic switch, could amplify concerns over the environmental impact of offshore drilling after the explosion and sinking of the Deepwater Horizon rig, hired by oil giant BP PLC, last week.

    BP’s Chief Operating Officer Doug Suttles said Thursday on NBC’s “Today” that as much as 5,000 barrels of oil a day may be leaking into the Gulf, up from original estimates of 1,000 barrels a day, matching calculations issued late Wednesday from federal investigators. Mr. Suttles said BP and government scientists have to estimate the flow based on what reaches the surface because there is no way to measure the oil pouring out on the seabed. The company also said it welcomes an offer of U.S. military help to get the spill under control.

    The accident has led to one of the largest ever oil spills in U.S. water and the loss of 11 lives.

    U.S. regulators don’t mandate use of the remote-control device on offshore rigs, and the Deepwater Horizon didn’t have one.

    …Nevertheless, regulators in two major oil-producing countries, Norway and Brazil, in effect require them. Norway has had acoustic triggers on almost every offshore rig since 1993.

    …An acoustic trigger costs about $500,000, industry officials said. The Deepwater Horizon had a replacement cost of about $560 million, and BP says it is spending $6 million a day to battle the oil spill.

    1. For the lack of that 500K they just shot down the recent ok for more off-shore drilling. We’re going to get months of news coverage (as we should) of this spill destroying the Gulf. This will end any efforts to put a new rig off-shore anywhere for the next 10+ years.

      They save 500K, the entire gulf and everyone living there pays the price.

      1. This might have been averted.

        Notice–The US doesn’t require it.  That’s the key.  In spite of all the BS spouting from COGA (here in CO) or BP (‘Beyond Petroleum’) or Duke’s little lady in the black pantsuit, until they are required to employ certain BMPs, use certain new technologies, etc. they won’t.

        Now BP is asking for help from the military–in other words, more tax payer largess to avert a preventable disaster.  Will any of this come out of the CEO’s pay?  Nah, you and I can cover it Dave.

        1. this is going to turn out to be one of the most devasting environmental disasters in history. There was a finite amount of oil on the Exxon Valdez. Who knows how much oil will spew into the Gulf of Mexico before the underground pool empties itself? It is easily over a million gallons already and increasing at the rate of over 200,000 gallons a day.  

          1. but they’ll manage to stop it before  “the underground pool empties.” The reason that it will take a while is that they’ll need to bring out another rig and drill a hole that intersects the leaker. Then they’ll pump it full of barite mud (very heavy stuff).

            But the rest of what you and CT say is spot on.

            1. I am familiar with the technology, enough to know that it is complicated and time consuming to get all the gear and people together to do it.

              I also heard this morning that there is more than one leak. Multiple wells are drilled from these platforms, and I have not heard anyone say how many holes they had already drilled when the rig exploded, or how much of the platform wreckage they may have to move, or what other complicating factors may exist. There is still a lot we don’t know.

              The Exxon Valdez spill was 11,000,000 gallons, close to shore. Being well offshore, this spill will probably affect a much larger area with a less concentrated effect. They have about fifty days, if the flow is steady, before the actual amounts even out.

              It is interesting to geeky types like me to make these comparisons, BUT…the fact is, this is a disaster of monumental proportions. My mother lives near Houston and I have spent a lot of time on the coast down there. They are still not quite recovered from the hurricane season that included Katrina (and others). They don’t need this.

              What is particularly galling, in light of this spill, is that Exxon/Mobil, as I understand it, still hasn’t paid for the Valdez spill clean-up. I saw this AM on the tube that Exxon made over $6 billion dollars in PROFITS last quarter.

              sigh.

              1. Obviously not good for the environment in itself, is the burning going to have a significant effect on the amount of oil that reaches the shore?

                1. Oil Spill Gulf of Mexico 2010 BP Asks For Help

                  The Oil Spill in the Gulf of Mexico is Only Getting Bigger and is Now Worse Than Anyone Thought: BP Has Asked For Help From the U.S Military

                  The oil spill has now surpassed BP’s ‘worst case scenario’, meaning it could become a major ecological disaster and could even begin to rival the damage of the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill in Prince William Sound, Alaska, in 1989. Although not as much oil would come from the Deepwater Horizon drilling rig.

                  http://www.nowpublic.com/envir…

                  This is a nightmare.  

                2. that one of the main reasons for the burn off is to prevent the oil from getting so big that by the time it reaches the shore, it could become an uncontrollable fireball; it’s to prevent an even bigger fire on shore and potential massive damage to property to at least 3 states.

                  The air pollutants from the burn are going to be deadly enough.

                  This spill is now being described as “catastrophic” and expected to surpass the Valdez Oil Spill.

    2. From 5,000 Barrels a day spilled, down to 5,000 Gallons!

      Gee thats only a reduction in the amount spilled by 49,000 Gallons.

      By changing ONE word in the reporting.

      Nothing to see here, Move along…



      Reality does indeed have a Liberal Bias.

      1. Initial reports were about 40,000 gallons (about 1000 barrels) per day. Those numbers were the same from all news sources. Better, more recent, estimates have increased that to about 5000 barrels per day.

        The facts alone are damning. No need for conspiracy theories.

    3. Apparently BP didn’t.

      Ixtoc I was an exploratory oil well in the Gulf of Mexico, about 600 miles (970 km) south of the U.S. state of Texas. On June 3, 1979, the well suffered a blowout and is recognized as the second largest oil spill in history.

      [snip]

      Approximately ten thousand to thirty thousand barrels per day were discharged into the Gulf until it was finally capped on March 23, 1980.

      That’s right – it took over 9 months to cap the well.

      Does this sound familiar?

      Mexico’s government-owned oil company Pemex (PetrГіleos Mexicanos) was drilling a 2-mile (3.2 km) deep oil well, when the drilling rig lost drilling mud circulation.

      [snip]

      Without the circulating mud, the drill ran into high pressure gas which blew out the oil (known as a blowout). The oil caught fire and the platform collapsed.

      Drill, Baby, Drill!

      1. Leased from Transocean. But the cleanup is going to cost BP dearly(and the taxpayers, and the residents, and the wildlife, and the…).

        I wonder who owned the blow-out preventer on the seafloor?  

        2. that had the blow out preventer.  They said don’t worry, they have $500,000 liability insurance.  That will almost cover the Transocean rig.

          On land the company actually developing the lease, not just the rig contractor, has lots of control over how the lease is drilled, but it could be totally different for off-shore.  

  2. Today’s Denver Post has an article confirming that McInnis, in fact, did not personally donate to the RNC.  BobMoore investigated and posted this on Pols yesterday.

    ColoradoPols: Tomorrow’s News Today.

      3. When public officials allocate their American cash … the citizens have a right to know.

        Are you saying that what we do with our money is not our own business? Are you sure your not a closet socialist?

  4. We get Libertad and then a lot of lousy recipes.  I would like to thank Laughing Boy for trying to provide some kind of “the other side.”

    I am really pissed with the crap about disclosing charitable deductions. I won’t even write a letter to the editor because you have to sign your name.  Did it a couple of times and wound up with ugly messages on the answering machine.

    In today’s climate, targeting 501c3s (which is what political talk radio is trying to do)  is outrageous.  It could reduce contributions.  It could subject the agencies to god knows what kind of reprisals.  It could frighten vulnerable clients. People could be afraid to donate.

    Look, 501c3s are, by definition, non-partisan and non-political.  Let’s leave them that way.

    One radio joker attacked the ACLU (which is not a 501c3)…with one of these “ACLU is a a leftist organization” and the Colorado citizens have a right to know if a governor candidate supports this organization.

    Well, the ACLU (I am a proud card carrying member) supports the Constitution, specifically the First Amendment.  So, WTF, did that yahoo mean? We don’t want a candidate who supports the constitution? Maybe we want a candidate who takes his marching orders from Murdock or the Vatican?  I am really pissed.

    1. Have you tried them?

      Serve your guests the cucumber martinis, MotR’s tarragon chicken and the Tarte Tatin, and you will be famous with your friends forever!

          2. Crist is not only gonna lose but he’s going to be the pariah of the Republican National Party. I’d be surprised if this doesn’t finish him in politics. You can bet me, if you like–I’m much cheaper than LB.  

                    1. A new baby can get you out of anything with anyone other than the wife.  Make those sleepless nights count for something!

                      Lame meeting? Sick kid!  Boring party? Sick kid!

            2. If Crist falls to Rubio, and wasn’t being backed by the Big Republican Names, what exactly was his future in the Republican Party?

              Besides, if he wins, think of the self-promotional opportunities – look at Lieberman…  He’s everywhere he wants to be on TV, in negotiations…

              1. One of two options here–run in the primary and lose or pull a Penry and drop out of the race–the Republican Party would have loved him for it and they love to reward good behavior. He would have landed nicely somewhere. Now, he’s wandering through the desert alone and his career is over. The Dems are going to split their vote between Meek and Crist and Rubio is going to be the next Senator of Florida, provided some of his own skeletons in the closet don’t come to light.

                  1. with a great many of their party faithful. He would have been fondly remembered and richly rewarded. Instead, in about 6 months, he’s going to be working on his tan for the rest of his life.  

    3. At 3PM MDT Charlie Crist will start becoming Florida’s next senator.  He will announce his candidacy.  

      Only the right wingers and party faithful don’t like Charlie.  The general public (read: voters) like him a lot.  He won the hearts of many Democrats and especially the teacher’s unions by rejecting SB 6 recently and other actions that are pro-ordinary citizen

      I don’t think Meek, the presumed Democratic nominee stands a chance beyond the party faithful.  Democrats now have a 700,000 voter registration advantage over the Pubs, and many of them – this stalwart FDR Dem included – will see Charlie Crist as the best option for the state of Florida.  

      I can throw my vote away by voting for Meek or I can steal the election from Rubio by voting for Crist.  That will be a first for me!  And I’m sure many will think likewise.  Even though he will presumably caucus with the Pubs, he has shown a strong streak of populism.  I think he would be a “safe” Republican.

      Welcome Senator Crist!

      1. He doesn’t have to pander to the right-wing faction of his base any more; he can do what he thinks is right (or politically best) as Governor, he can veto idiotic stuff coming from the whacky legislature – in short, he can look like an electable candidate.

        We’ll see where this takes the race; I’m not as positive about Crist’s chances as you are, but he’s certainly in better shape as an independent than as a Republican.

        1. ….in a three way race.  Something like 3% or 4% ahead of Rubio and Meek getting table scraps.  

          Although he won’t get Republican financial support, his wife is uber-wealthy (and stunningly beautiful. Go, Charlie!) so maybe he/she will do some self-funding.

          Crist may be the “Republican” average, MOR voters have been wanting.  He might be the first of a long term trend.  Just speculating.

          Thirty minutes to go!

            1. Meeks would be a good senator.  But outside of Miamia, he isn’t known.  And he’s pretty liberal, fine by me but maybe not the MOR voter.

              I think the Dems are sucking big on this race.  It’s no win.

  7. Gulf slick creeps closer to land

    The massive oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico has crept closer to the coast as the US offered military help to prevent an environmental disaster.

    Oil reached to 12 miles from land and it could hit shores as early as Friday.

    A third leak was discovered from the rig which caught fire and exploded last week and government officials said it was pumping out five times as much as originally estimated – about 5,000 barrels a day.

    Chief Operating Officer for BP, which operated the rig, Doug Suttles said: “We’ll take help from anyone.”

    The Coast Guard has urged the company to formally request more resources from the Defence Department.

    Mr Suttles had initially disputed the government’s estimate, or that the company was unable to handle the operation to contain it.

    But he has acknowledged that the leak may be as bad as the government says. He said there was no way to measure the flow at the seabed and estimates have to come from how much oil makes it to the surface.

    If the well cannot be closed, almost 100,000 barrels of oil, or 4.2 million gallons, could spill into the Gulf before crews could drill a relief well to alleviate the pressure.

    By comparison, the Exxon Valdez, the worst oil spill in US history, leaked 11 million gallons into Alaska’s Prince William Sound in 1989.

    http://www.google.com/hostedne…

    Demand corporate accountability now.  

      1. has become “Spill, Baby, Spill”

        Which will “Kill, baby, kill” the fisheries and perhaps make people “ill, baby, ill” with all the chemicals that will get in to the food chain.

        Not to mention the impact of the burn off (can’t think of a cute –ill saying)

        2. Is at upcoming Palin & other Republican events is, to get a group in the audience to chant “drill, baby, drill.” That would put them in a no-win situation that would get a ton of TV coverage.

    2. almost 100,000 barrels of oil, or 4.2 million gallons, could spill into the Gulf before crews could drill a relief well to alleviate the pressure.

      At 5000 barrels/day, that implies that they’ll have it under control in about 20 days. Have a look at the Ixtoc comment I posted above. That one took them 9 months to cap.

      At the rate it’s leaking, it will match the Exxon Valdez at about 50 days. And compared to rocky coast of Prince William Sound, the marshes, bayous, and sandy beaches of the Gulf Coast will be impossible to “clean”.  

  8. Petro-giant BP says that five times more oil than it originally estimated is leaking into the Gulf of Mexico, from the site of the crippled Deepwater Horizon offshore drilling platform.

    The company initially stated that the leak was about 42,000 gallons a day, or 1,000 barrels. Now BP is affirming the U.S. Coast Guard’s estimate that around 210,000 gallons of oil, or close to 5,000 barrels, are pouring daily into the Gulf from the platform’s site.

    This higher figure still falls far short of an assessment by an independent analyst, who has been working with publicly available data from the NASA “Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer” (MODIS) aboard the agency’s Aqua satellite, as well as other sources.

    “We consider [5,000 barrels a day] a bare bones bottom limit,” says John Amos, the president and founder of SkyTruth.  SkyTruth is a West Virginia-based nonprofit specializing in independent analysis of satellite and aerial data.

    I spoke with Amos this morning, just before he left for a TV interview in Washington, D.C.  He puts the amount of oil leaking into the Gulf daily since the rig sank at closer to 20,000 barrels, or 840,000 gallons.

    That would add up to around 12 million gallons of oil spilt so far, greater than the 11-million-gallon spill in Alaska’s Prince William Sound by the oil tanker Exxon Valdez in 1989, one of the nation’s worst environmental disasters.

    http://www.onearth.org/node/2084

  10. I’ve been wrestling with such Talmudic distinctions as that between evidence that meets all the tests of Hearsay but is considered admissible as nonhearsay because the law/rule says its non hearsay and hearsay that is admissible under a hearsay exception.

      Pondering it, I recalled 20 years or so back that a Pueblo priest announced that he was homosexual — but observing his vows of celibacy.  His bishop spent a few days pondering the difference between the homosexual sex that his gay priest WASN’t having and the heterosexual sex that his straight priests WEREN’T having.  In the end, he couldn’t find any difference and said his gay, celibate priest could stay on the job.

      When I offered that story as an anology to the hearsay admitted as nonhearsay because the law says its non-hearsay and hearsay admitted under the hearsay exception, my professor was not amused.  

      Perhaps, being not amused is a prerequisite to passing the bar exam…;-)

    1. Sorry I missed this before your exam. Hope you did okay.

      CU Law, as far as I know, has two evidence professors, one (who I had for Civ Pro) who is a great legal scholar renowned for his tomes on Evidence, and the other who is a trial lawyer who just teaches the rules. I was blessed with the latter (amazingly easy class).

      Hearsay is a beauty, no doubt, with its exceptions and exclusions, and the distinction between the two. Hope you had fun with it.

  12. go to http://www.whitehouse.gov/comm… and vote for the Denver School of Science and Technology to have President Obama deliver their commencement address.

    The competition started with over 1,000 schools applying. It’s been narrowed down to six finalists. The three schools with the highest average ratings will be sent to President Obama who will make the final selection.

    If you are interested in supporting DSST in this, please don’t wait because voting ends tonight at 10:00 p.m. mountain time.

  13. But Mike Miller, who heads a Canadian oil well firefighting company, says the spill does have the potential to become the largest on record.

    “I expect this will be the biggest oil spill in the world by far,” he said.

    “Probably the only thing comparable to this is the Kuwait fires. The Exxon Valdez is going to pale in comparison to this as it goes on.”

    http://australianetworknews.co…

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