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November 18, 2009 04:47 PM UTC

Wednesday Open Thread

  • 61 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

Ring the bells that still can ring

Forget your perfect offering

There is a crack in everything

That’s how the light gets in

–Leonard Cohen

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61 thoughts on “Wednesday Open Thread”

  1. Although actually from 2 days ago. From Colorado’s Newspaper of record we have:

    DENVER – A corps of turnaround experts who would travel from failing school to failing school, a computerized, multimedia test to replace the Colorado Student Assessment Program, and a “360 degree” evaluation for teachers mirroring business-world performance evaluations were just some of the ideas Race to the Top school reform workgroups presented Friday to Gov. Bill Ritter, Lt. Gov. Barbara O’Brien and Commissioner of Education Dwight Jones.

    1. Three cheers to any plan that would reduce the emphasis on standardized testing in schools.

      Here’s hoping the new 360 degree evaluations, if implemented, include feedback from students. In the business world, the best evaluations of managers include subordinates as full participants in the process. Even very young students can have valuable input on the performance of their teachers.

      Let’s also see some meaningful accountability for school administrators’ decisions, with feedback from students in that area as well. I suspect that metal detectors and police in schools aren’t making students feel any safer.

            1. …unlike you, who must pony up $200 a session with an escort.

              Maybe someday, you’ll meet someone in the WoW chat rooms who will take you for what you are.

              1. don’t tell me how you have come to know these hooker industry things … I can only imagine they are data points you’ve picked up while the wife was overseas supporting the outsource and off-shore industries.

                ps someday I’ll google this warcraft game you keep refering too … I can only assume is some kind of dungens and dragons fantasy game?

        2. I’m still a relatively young professional, but I hope never to run into someone in the business world who evaluates me based on my ability to fill out the correct bubbles following rote memorization of test material.

          For what it’s worth, I’m a Colorado public schools graduate and never scored below the 90th percentile on the CSAP, even in subjects I understood very poorly at the time of testing. The CSAP measures test-taking skills, not comprehensive knowledge of the subject.  

            1. And likely much more intellectually stimulating than anything on the CSAP. I’ve seen a few questions from Google’s job interviews and, though I’m not a programmer, they appear to be designed to measure competence and problem-solving skills. I don’t think the strategies that allow students to skate by on the CSAP without critical thinking would work very well in a Google interview.

              Too bad we can’t tell which kids are destined for which fields and test them more appropriately for their future goals. A comprehensive approach that gives all types of learners a chance to succeed is as close as we can come without a crystal ball.  

              1. The CSAP is failing our students, but that doesn’t mean standardized testing should be thrown out the window. Instead of saying “it’s all or nothing”, we should be focused on reforming the way that assessments are undertaken by the education system in this state.

                I liked some of the ideas put forth by the Race to the Top workgroups such as replacing CSAP’s bubble scantron format with a multimedia-based assessment. Let the students rise to the height of their ability rather than forcing them to fill out bubbles–which, aside from making them excellent survey takers, doesn’t really assess them on their knowledge or performance; it simply measures how good of test takers they are, and how well the teachers have taught to the test.

          2. One can be proficient at CSAP with minimal knowledge of a subject area.

            I recently saw an example CSAP test and was amazed at how easy it is.  If schools can not teach kids to master the rudimentary knowledge, their process is very flawed.

            Some of the consequences for a school which fails the test do not make sense to me, but I think the test itself is a good metric for identifying problem area in the system.

            1. Students with a thorough understanding of a subject area are completely capable of being marked as failing on the CSAP because they lack test-taking skills.

              If a teacher teaches to the test and uses class time to teach students how to take standardized tests, most of his or her students will do well on the CSAP whether or not they understand the subject being tested. If a teacher fails to teach to the test and spends class time encouraging problem-solving, critical thinking and comprehensive understanding, that class is likely to include several intelligent students who flounder on the CSAP.

              The CSAP does measure teacher performance well, I’ll give it that, but it measures performance only for one metric: Ability to teach students how to take a standardized test.  

              1. Perhaps a few who know the material well but have terrible test taking skill may slip through, but lets fix the problem for those few after we fix the big problem for the many.

                I believe CSAP results clearly show that kids aren’t getting the base knowledge they need.  When school districts beg for more money to provide more of the same, it is not a plea that resonates well with me.

                1. I believe CSAP results clearly show that kids aren’t getting the base knowledge they need.

                  I agree, to an extent. But I think CSAP is a big part of the problem which it is identifying. Kids aren’t getting the base knowledge they need in part because they are getting pressure to perform well on standardized tests rather than a comprehensive education that takes into account their individual learning styles. Teachers are under pressure to teach to the test, which I think creates a vicious circle that disengages students from learning and encourages stagnation in testing scores.

                  More damningly, funding is getting channeled to the administration of this testing program when there’s no funding available to fix problems that make it difficult for students to succeed in school. I heard a former school guidance counselor speak at a recent political meeting. She quit her job when she was told she’d be expected to serve a large number of schools–I believe she said 21–during this school year. Kids are experiencing hunger, learning disabilities, school absences, lack of parental involvement and more, and we want to keep funding an expensive testing program that’s so far failed to effect any improvement in Colorado’s school system?

                  Some sort of assessment program is necessary; we can’t let schools operate with zero accountability. But I’d like to see the schools accountable to the people affected by them, not just to test scores on a test that mostly measures test-taking skills. Students are capable of articulating their needs when empowered to do so. Parents are capable of getting more involved in the education of their children when they receive support and encouragement to do so. I think we need to focus on creating an assessment program that evaluates schools in a big-picture way and makes recommendations for improvement that are based on the unique factors present in each school, not just based on numerical scores.

              2. Teachers should teach the subject material. If the student knows and understands the material, the student will do fine on tests, no matter what kind they are.

                If the student does not know the material, all the test-taking strategies in the world won’t help.

                Problem is, we have too many teachers who either don’t understand the material themselves or they lack the communication skills to teach it.

                Quit blaming “teaching to the test.”

                2. If so, I’d be curious to know your scores and your impressions of the test.

                  I took numerous CSAP tests over my career as a Colorado public schools student. My lowest percentile score was 91%. Most of my scores were 95-99%. Imagine my surprise when I entered college and discovered I needed remedial algebra courses! I’d skated through years of CSAP testing by memorizing problems similar to those on the test (I have a strong visual memory) without ever really grasping the underlying concepts. One good remedial algebra course later, I’m still not ready for Calculus, but I not longer struggle with basic Algebra.

                  For the record, I didn’t have teachers who taught to the test. My natural strengths just happen to lie in areas that allow me to be very good at taking CSAP-style tests, whether I know the material particularly well or not. I didn’t realize this until college and genuinely thought I knew the subject backwards and forwards.

                  1. But the trick is to keep improving the system, not throw it our because it’s imperfect. If we don’t measure then we don’t improve.

                    This is the same reason we give students a single letter grade to sum up their efforts over a semester in a class. It’s an imperfect system, but it does a decent job.

                    1. I attended a school that did not give letter grades. The system had its flaws but provided a much more useful and comprehensive evaluation than letter grading.

                4. And please circle this date on your calendar.  I’m with Libby as well.

                  While it’s true that a kid who knows the content of the test will possibly score well on the test, it’s also true that a kid who doesn’t know shit from shinola probably won’t do well on the test.

                  And those are the kids I worry about–the ones who don’t know shit.  Why don’t they know shit?  Why is the system letting them down?  What do we do with teachers who repeatedly fail their kids year after year?  What’s going to happen to those kids as they progress through the system while we so-called grownups look for a solution?

                  Tests aren’t the be-all and end-all.  But each test is a data point, and we ought to be using those data points for something.  If the data shows the same teachers failing their students each year, why isn’t that something worth considering?

            2. Whether or not you believe CSAP is “easy” or a good measure of student assessment is irrelevant. The program has been in place for some time now, and it has shown very little in the way of doing what it was supposed to do. Schools are still failing in droves–even after they’ve been taken over by the state and turned into charter schools.

              CSAP was supposed to be a reform, but it’s done very little in the way of improving our educational system.

          3. This is a quote from the speech made by Governor Bill Ritter at the CEA Summer Leadership

            Conference. The audience’s lengthy applause caused Governor Ritter to quickly clarify the statement.

            He explained that testing is not going away but the old CSAP format will be replaced with

            a new test that relate to new content standards. These standards are part of his Cap4K initiative.

            Cap4K involves comprehensive education from age 4 until college. It includes readiness skills

            for preschoolers and students entering college. Higher Education (CO universities) for the first

            time had input into the standards by providing requirements needed by students for successfully

            entering higher education. Although not clearly stated by the Governor or on his website, word

            has it that standards at various grade levels will have specific focuses rather than “the broad

            work on everything standards” we currently are using. Another important point, which is on the

            website, is that students will have to meet competencies when exiting public high school.

            Whether this will lead to exit tests and differentiated diplomas has yet to be addressed. Finally,

            Cap4K involves the use of 21st century lessons with particular emphasis on expanding technology

            in rural schools. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Tax Act or stimulus monies is available

            to accomplish this. Keep informed by searching for Colorado Cap4K.

            http://academyea.org/public_ht…

  2. LOVELAND, Colo.-Another Republican is planning to challenge Democratic Rep. Betsy Markey in Colorado’s 4th Congressional District.

    Dean Madere of Loveland plans to announce his candidacy Wednesday night at a Loveland golf course…

    …Madere is a Louisiana native who works for a heating and air conditioning company and says he’s “average” but “frustrated” with the direction of the country.

    Because nothing says you’re “average” like announcing your candidacy on the links.

  3. Watched AG Holder’s speech to the Senate Subcommittee this morning while at the gym, and one line comes across as the bitch-slap the Senate needs:

    “We need not cower in the face of this enemy,” Holder says. “Our institutions are strong, our infrastructure is sturdy, our resolve is firm, and our people are ready.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…

    The cowardice shown by 40 Repubs with 5 Dems joining in them is astounding. This body votes regularly to support operations (combat and otherwise) against terrorism across the world, but the moment it gets personal they start crying like scared children.

    There’s a war on with terrorists – we can debate the some of the calls made fighting it, but make no mistake that there is one.

    And now it has to be fought with our most awesome weapon – the rule of law. And yes, some of these fanatics may come to the states and try some acts of terrorism to disrupt the trial.

    But they had pledged to destroy this country anyway – does it matter what reason they use to do it? And even if they did attack a police station or try and kidnap a judge or his family, do your liberties and constitutional rights mean so little to you that you wouldn’t fight to defend them?

    The War on Terror just might be coming to our shores again. It’s time that we all started fighting it, instead of just sending our young men and women overseas to fight it, so we can go to the mall in peace.

    1. Pretty soon we’ll see people saying – but what if they’re found not guilty? If that happens, that would be a giant message to the world that the U.S. is once again a nation of laws and the advantage we get worldwide from that would far outweigh setting one bad guy free.

      1. Actually, I suspect what would happen is that we’d secretly abduct them and send them back to another shadowy detention facility somewhere off-shore.  I sure hope that doesn’t happen.

    2. .

      When I was working for a civilian federal agency at the Denver Federal Center, I volunteered for a job in Baghdad, one where I would be detailed over to the Army for 12 months.  I had told my boss, who assented.  

      But when I got selected and offered the job, and put in paperwork for the temporary detail, the Bureau Headquarters Personnel Chief told me that it wasn’t “our” war, it was the Army’s war.  They might hold a job for me while I was gone, or not, but they darn sure weren’t going to pay my salary while I was over there, even if the Army did promise to reimburse them.

      Of course, the Army was only set up to hire me on a detail, on loan from another federal agency, so I couldn’t go.  

      I’ve heard people employed by another of the armed services say that it wasn’t their branch’s war, it was the Marine Corps’ and Army’s war.  A person I know who works as a civilian for that branch recently volunteered for a job in Afghanistan.  After 30 days, this person asked about the status of the volunteer action.  It was sitting in an inbox in the Personnel Office.  It was the first such volunteer application that had been submitted, 8 years into the war, and they didn’t know how to process it.  

      But if I understand you correctly, Dan, you think it’s the nation’s war ?  Would that it were so.

      .

        1. …there’s been two major Federal Laws passed to give job protection to Reserve and National Guard members activated.

          The original act was the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act, passed in 1940, and the second was a revision in 2003.

          And it’s almost never enforced.

          One of the most important is in consumer debt interest rate reduction. By law, all loans must be reduced to 6%, or held at their current rate (whichever is lower.)

          Also, it’s supposed to prevent foreclosure actions against deployed military members, but again, it’s almost never enforced.

          Mortgage lenders ignore the statue, and it’s occurred in the inner cities to rural Colorado. One of the worst local offenders is Oakwood Homes, and their finance branch.

          (9news did a story while i worked there…I can’t find it now to link to it.)

          So, yes, volunteer to serve and lose your home, health care and your job. I amazed anyone signs up for the Guard and Reserve anymore.  

          1. the service member must request, in writing, the various forms of relief provided.  I am aware of many instances where service members did not request the relief (for a variety of reasons); I am unaware of an instance of relief being properly requested and then denied.

            1. ….but Oakwood absolutely broke this law on several instances. Feds refused to prosecute or intervene, but the former AG of the State (Ken Salazar) got busy and nailed them.

              Surf the forums over on MIlitary.com and other Joe-oriented web sites. You’ll find plenty of examples.

              You are right – you have to send in your deployment orders and be proactive. But credit card companies tend to be as responsive to that as they are on everything else.

    3. I think this is going to turn into an unnecessary huge circus, and will end up being an intelligence bonanza for AQ.

      There’s no way a death penalty conviction will come out of that trial if it’s in NYC.

      1. He deserves to die, but it’s almost better if he doesn’t. You execute KSM, and he’s a martyr. It’s everything scum like him dream about–paradise and virgins and all that.

        Instead, you let him rot in prison.

        With military tribunals, you have no semblance of fairness or rule of law. This way, it might be a circus, but it showcases everything that makes the American system of justice great.

        I think the bigger issue is whether someone who planned 9/11 could get a fair trial in the city in which the vast majority of 9/11 victims were murdered.

      2. He can sit in a room the size of my bathroom for the next 50 years and slowly go insane and die of claustrophobia for all I care.

        As for as whether or not he can get a fair trial in NYC or anywhere else for that matter (speaking to RSB’s comment below) if he is found guilty, no matter where the trial is held, there will always be some that feel he didn’t receive a fair trial.

        I think he deserves to face the music in the city he brought horror and havoc to now hidden away on some fucking island. I don’t fear a military tribunal; I just think the folks of NYC deserve their day in court. They’ve waited a long time for it.

        1. I’m claustrophobic which is probably why I’d rather die than spend the rest of my life, locked up in an 8 x 8 cell like a lab rat, in solitary confinement. I would literally lose my mind if I had to die like that.

            1. … who tortured KSM and basically broke him.

              If the trial brings to public light the nature of our treatment of these criminals, Republicans will fare no better than Dems – both parties get tagged, for different reasons.

              If it’s a lose-lose situation, at least we’ll have the knowledge that our foreign relations will improve by our conduct of a full and fair trial.

              1. …thinks it’s a good idea to have this trial in NYC.  It’s going to be OJ x 1000, and gives KSM exactly what he wants.

                No snark – do you think it’s an issue that he was never mirandized, or that Obama said today that he was going to be convicted?

                1. First off, I can’t believe Obama said that. I was stunned that he did. He knows better…or at least he should. Then again, does anyone really expect KSM is going to get a fair trial in NYC or under a military court? I mean, really, does anybody really believe it’s possible at this point. I sure as hell don’t.

                  And second, regarding his Miranda rights, that is a good point. I hadn’t thought of that and I haven’t read too many comments from anyone that has, either.

                  Last, it seems to be fairly common knowledge that he was tortured so the possibility of him being acquitted seems like a genuine one. I suppose the safest route is to let him plead guilty (which is what he indicated he would do a while back) under a military tribunal but how is that fair, considering the methods used on this guy?

                  I think he deserves a trial. We either believe in the rule of law or we are full of shit and don’t and need to shut the fuck up about what we claim this country stands for. Let the chips fall where they may, including for the Dems if he ends up acquitted.

                    1. because he can’t finish a damn sentence before he’s interrupted by Senator Graham.  

                    2. I was hoping nobody would notice that and just cringe at Holder’s inability to answer the question about OBL being mirandized.

              1. He could try him in VA if he doesn’t want to use the established military tribunals that he’s already using for other terrorists.

                Holder under Obama’s bus in 3…2…1…

      4. But that’s because they attacked a US Ship in Yemeni waters.

        KSM and the rest planned and executed a terrorist plot in the US, against US citizens. Draag there asses into court wearing orange jumpsuits and shackles.

    1. .

      I’ve been Beta-testing a little routine I placed on the root kernel of the Pols server in Tahiti.

      The guy who sold it to me said I could just type in “anybody who makes fun of my religion,” and whenever such a person tried to post something, they would get a pop-up to join The 700 Club.  

      Now I feel bad about “paying” him with a phony PayPal account.

      .

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