Wednesday Open Thread

“The trust of the innocent is the liar’s most useful tool.”

–Stephen King

56 Community Comments, Facebook Comments

  1. Nathan Jensen asks an important question in the New York Times: Why Are Your State Tax Dollars Subsidizing Corporations?

    In all likelihood, incentives are overpaying firms, leading to lost resources that could be used for other purposes. If the incentives don't pay for themselves, they must be paid for by either higher taxes or decreases on government spending. One of the most vocal opponents of incentives are local school districts that see their tax base being [given] away in the name of economic development.

  2. davebarnes says:

    Colorado Caucus Results 2018: Cary Kennedy is the Big Democratic Winner

    "Results from the 2018 Colorado caucus are nearly complete…and… Democratic attendees have given gubernatorial candidate Cary Kennedy a big victory. At this writing, she has 50 percent of the vote, more than all of her competitors combined"

    • mamajama55 says:

      I saw this play out in my own caucus. We organized and got people out to caucus – including people less informed, people who listen to Fox News all the time (because it's on everywhere).

      The Kochs and CREDO have been demonizing Polis for months now – in municipal elections in Greeley, Aurora, Broomfield, and all over, he had been portrayed as the candidate who wants to "end oil and gas production in Colorado".

      I've never seen Polis actually advocate for this; however, repetition by smiling, well-groomed TV hosts seems to make it "true".

      And the Kochs underestimated Kennedy, and have not yet targeted her. Also, Polis has some distrust from the left, a bad taste dating back to his abandoning the ballot initiative efforts in 2014, leaving us with Hick's "Blue Ribbon Commission" which accomplished little to limit O&G overreach.

      So Kennedy hasn't yet been on the Kochs' radar; and Jared is being criticized from the right and left. I don't think there's much more to this than that.

      • Voyageur says:

        I'm confused.  The rap against Polis on Pols has been that he DOESN't want to destroy the oil and gas industry with 2,500 foot setbacks and other Luddite measures.  

        As to Fox, eventually it will discover Cary is a woman — and not blonde– then the heavy artillery will open up.

        • Duke Cox says:

          Can we note, V., that your characterisation of a 2500 ft. setback as a "Luddite measure" is your opinion. I spent a couple of years working in the industry on wellsites and many years as an evironmental activist working to help residents and communities defend themselves from the next "play" dreamed up by the Oily Boys. I know something about this, and I am here to tell you that 2,500 ft. should be a minimum and in some cases, it should be even further.

          Unless you have lived in the gas patch (and I have), you have no real idea of the impact on your life when you are subjected to the whims of Big O&G.

          There is a reason for the obvious contradiction between the industrys' ability to reach out by "directionally drilling" to distances of two miles or more…easily tapping resources 15,000 ft. away…and their steadfast refusal to accept a greater setback. 

          Not every rig in the country can drill directionally. There are lots of companies that will have to spend a lot of money to comply, taking a big hit on the old profit margin.

          Plus…Oily Boys really don't like being told what to do.

          • Diogenesdemar says:

            What are you talking about Duke? Ask any Dumphuckistani schoolchild and he or she will tell you what awesome schoolyard jungle gyms abandoned oil derricks make!

          • Voyageur says:

            The 2,500 foot setback is an attempt to destroy the oil and gas industry put up by Luddites who don't have the guts to look us in the eye and admit they want to destroy the oil and gas industry.

            We've whipped these guys before and will do it again.  But the problem is the collateral damage on progressive candidates that the fallout from such extreme measues causes.  Why not a ten-mile setback?  A 100 mile setback?

            My brother in law and nephew work in the industry and their horns are a lot smaller than the left believes

            • Diogenesdemar says:

              ummm, . . .

              . . . maybe because 2,500 feet is 50,300 less than 10 miles???

            • davebarnes says:

              You are confused.
              Ned's followers wanted to destroy the new machinery and go back to the old ways.
              The people who want to "destroy" the oil & gas industry are forward-looking folks who want to end our reliance on dinosaur poop.

            • Duke Cox says:

              Honestly, V., you can do better than that.

              I will look anyone in the eye ( and have) and tell them the oil and gas industry as we know it must die as soon as we can make it happen. The sooner we completely replace oil, gas, and coal as sources of electricity and transportation fuel, the better.

              That will definitely shrink the O&G industry to supplying feed stock for the chemical, manufactering, and medical industries. 

              That will be a very happy circumstance.



            • mamajama55 says:

              On the 2500' setback, here is the distance that those wild eyed leftists at the Greeley department of public safety think that the public needs from a gas leak: a half mile – coincidentally, ~2600 '.

              Last September, during a game at Northridge HS in Greeley, one of the pipelines at a nearby well installation sprung a high pressure leak.  The photo below shows how close the well installation is to the District 6 stadium.

              The football game was cancelled, and residents within a half mile were warned to evacuate. Now, they did get the leak sealed, but that distance is significant.

              Not only did the firefighters clear the stadium, they were ready to evacuate everyone within a half mile radius of the leak.

              What is a higher public good:  your son in law's "right" to pull abundant profit from his mineral rights, or the right of a low income 6th grader to breathe air sans methane, and to have an emergency evacuation plan that actually keeps him or her safe?

              If we're on the subject of property rights, what about those Greeley residents whose homes were suddenly in a high-fracking evactuation zone? What will happen to their home values, you think?


              • Voyageur says:

                So, apparently absolutely no one was hurt but a football game was canceled.  Gasp.  Surely, that means the rest of us must freeze in the dark.

                And, of course since all profit making business should be destroyed, except perhaps for marijuana, who will be left to pay the taxes for the schools?
                Duke at least is honest in that he does want to destroy the industry.
                So, good luck with that freeze in the dark thing!

                • Diogenesdemar says:

                  Looks like only two more reply-response cycles here before we slip below the event horizon into the dark and freezing black hole of debating Pol Pot versus ???? . . . 

                  . . . think I’ll see what’s in my dark, freezing ice-box for dinner.



                  • Voyageur says:

                    Check out the psychedelic mushroom casserole..  Apparently, the good times never stop rolling in Colorado😈

                  • mamajama55 says:

                    V's slippery slope gets real slippery when he turns off the lights and heat.  Logic and facts can't survive in that environment.

                    • Voyageur says:

                      I mention my brother in law and nephew work in the industry.  They are mechanics.   You go into a Stalinist rage against my capitalist son in law making a (gasp) profit.

                      My son in law is a Denver cop, not that it’s any business of yours.

                      And I'm the one who abandons facts and logic?

                      Have a nice hate. 

                • mamajama55 says:

                  They don't always fix the leaks on time, V.

                  Firestone, April 2017 2 dead




                  Windsor, Dec 2017 1 worker hurt

                  Tank fire, Greeley, 2015 total loss of property

                  51 oil / gas workers dead since 2003

                  GOP Colorado lawmakers killed bill requiring that public health be a priority in oil and gas drilling, March 2018

                  These are the people whose side you are on.

                  And instead of logic and arguments, all you can offer are name calling and insults for anyone who dares to disagree (Luddite, Stalinist, drunk, stupid, etc)

                  Perhaps because you have no logic or arguments, or are too lazy to actually provide links to articles that prove your oil and gas industry is so beneficial to Colorado, so flinging insults and employing logical fallacies is all you can muster to give yourself the feeling of "winning".



                  • Voyageur says:

                    You converted my reference to a brother in law and nephew who work in the industry to a raging charge that my son in law was profiteering from oil and gas leases?  Where is your "link" to that– the cooking sherry again?


                    As to Madco,Ugly American makes a two sentence reference to the fact that he thinks Cary will beat Jared, as she did convincingly Tuesdy, into a rant that UA is  a "Red State loser" because, somehow ken Salazar won and Udall lost among other non sequitors.

                    If that's not the raving of a drunkard, it's the musing of a madman.

                    If anything, Cary beat Polis by running to the left of him.  Polis is fairly moderate on oil and gas and voted to defend assault rifle sales.  How that makes her supporters "red state losers" is a mystery to me.

                    So be careful of the company you keep.

                    Or not.  Maybe Madco's Scotch and your cooking sherry are a match made in heaven.

                    Praise the lord and pass the magic mushrooms.  Another Colorado election is underway.

                    • Diogenesdemar says:

                      “Another Colorado election is underway” . . .

                      True Nuf!

                      I was just thinking yesterday how nice it might be to get a good sunburn on my pasty self just once this year before I started wishing it were Thanksgiving.  Alas (sigh) . . . 

                      And, of course Cary won the caucuses by running to the left of Polis.  It’s the caucuses for dog sakes, that’s who attends Party caucuses — disproportionately, it’s the wingtips.  That’s exactly why that system is so ridiculous and counter productive, and should simply be eliminated in lieu of primaries. 

                      On a personal note, love you V! — without you here to argue with semi-sensibly every once in a while, this site would have almost nothing left for me except pissing on Moderatus.  yes

                    • Voyageur says:

                      Back at cha, Diobroken heart

      • Voyageur says:

        You say "we organised" mj.  Who were you backing, may I ask?

        • mamajama55 says:

          "We" – as in local county Democratic activists, including myself – organized to get people to caucus and to candidate forums. Not promoting any particular candidate.

      • Duke Cox says:

        I think you mean CRED there, mama. CREDO is a phone company I think.           

    • From the redundancy department of redundancy, by definition if she took 50%+1 she has more than everyone else combined.

  3. Pseudonymous says:

    Oh, Eddie, you sly little dog.  You thought you might sneak one by while big brother Michael was taking the corporatist heat?

    Congress Celebrates 10th Anniversary of the Financial Crash by Moving to Roll Back Financial Regulations

    In short, the [House] bill is about greasing the skids for regulatory rollbacks and making it more difficult to issue regulations in the first place by prioritizing the interests of the industry over the public. EGRPRA reviews are already a three-year process, so increasing their frequency would direct federal resources away from enforcement. (As one could easily expect, Republicans aren’t about to increase these regulators’ funding to properly account for the newly assigned tasks.)

    The bill is especially harmful to the CPFB, which already has to review its rules five years after they take effect and whose statutory mission focuses on protecting CONSUMERS from financial predation, not predatory financial companies from regulation.

  4. Gray in Mountains says:

    Wow! Congratulations Cary Kennedy!

  5. flatiron says:

    Kennedy won Boulder County?? Whats going on there — would think Polis should have dominated there.

    • Pseudonymous says:

      Not particularly.  The caucus crowd in Boulder is weighted left.  Cary has teachers and folks opposed to education reform on her side.  Also, there are probably a buttload of activists who are upset with Jared on his petroflop and gun stance.  The primary will be a better judge of Boulder sentiment.

      • flatiron says:

        "education reform" lately has meant only corporate charter schools that take money out of the public system,  drive down teacher salaries and not perform any better despite often attracting a cohort of students who should naturally outperform the general public school population.

        Real "education reform" would include increasing teacher pay to attract and retain, give teachers more autonomy, drastically reduce standardized testing which is wasting up to a quarter of instructional time, increase funding for the arts in all schools, and create a vocational track for students who are not going to a college or university after high school

        • Voyageur says:

          Actually, charter schools are public schools, just ones somewhat removed from the grip of teacher unions that make it impossible to fire bad teachers.  Both my grandkids have been in Denver charter schools and if you destroy them neither I nor many other parents will ever vote for a school tax again.

          • RepealAndReplace says:

            shhh…..don't say that in certain places, V.   frown

            I agree with you about the problems with firing the bad teachers. But I also believe in the stick and the carrot approach. Merit pay for the good teachers.


            • Diogenesdemar says:

              Over the years, I’ve kept all those bad-teachers-who-can’t-ever-be-fired stories in the same file that I keep all those Raygun Cadillac-driving-steak-eating-strapping-young-buck-welfare-scammer, and all my Sasquatch-sighting, stories.

              . . . I mean, I’m not denying there’s probably one or maybe even two out there (although I’ve never ever met him or her, personally), because all those myriad stories and reported sightings can’t be 100% wrong, huh? . . . 

              . . . still, to me, it seems likely that there’s a disproportionately whole lot more stick being thrust upon the overwhelming majority of teachers, than the infrequent baby-carrot that gets parceled out to one or two each year?

              • Voyageur says:

                Dio is right.  The public school establishment is perfect in every way, which is why voters love it and parents are so happy.

                Actually, most of Flatirons' recommendations are good ones.  But when someone deliberately mistates the facts, as he did by claiming charter schools are not public schools, it's a safe bet that he has a special interest agenda.

  6. Arvadonian1 says:

    I voted Polis, but was prepared to go with Cary in the event she didn't meet the 30% threshold in our caucus (she did…she hit 50%).  I want her to be on the ballot for the primary and she was only going the caucus route for ballot access.

    I like Jared and at this point, am inclined to vote for him in the primary…but his tendency to flip-flop makes me a bit nervous (see assault rifle ban, for instance).  I want to have a choice and the two of them are the only two I'd consider qualified for the office. 


  7. RepealAndReplace says:

    When Polis first ran in CD 2 against Joan Fitzgerald, did he petition onto the ballot or go caucus/assembly route?

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