Monday Open Thread

“The most useful piece of learning for the uses of life is to unlearn what is untrue.”


75 Community Comments, Facebook Comments

  1. parsingreality says:

    Give or take a miscount day.

    I’m not going to predict a Permanent Democratic Majority (after we take back the House in two years), we libs tend to not have the hubris so characteristic of the righties.

    Having come of age during the golden years of the middle class, it has increasingly distressed me to see America, the shining city on the hill, fall back to gross inequality and loss of hope for a better tomorrow.

    The climb back to what will be a newer version of a liberal America.  As we’ve seen so emphatically, the voting face of America has changed: Darker and younger. We have to undo forty years of right wing propaganda that is effective it gets people to vote against their own best interests.

    “It’s morning in America.”  Where have I heard that before?

    • AristotleAristotle says:

      I see plenty of hubris. Ol’ David Sirota tweeted that the election was a total rejection of conservatism by the electorate, and had nothing to do with Romney himself. Sirota is a blowhard with no more pull than any third-rate GOP dingleberry (like his co host Michael Brown, for example – I’m not thinking of people like Limbaugh or O’Reilly), but I know he’s not alone in thinking that.

      Now, some of that may be the result of an after-election high. Since I began voting in the 80s, I myself can’t recall an all-around more satisfying election than this one, free of disappointments (such as the passage of Amendments 1 & 2 in 1992, which really took the wind out of the Clinton victory’s sails for me). But the reports of the Romney campaign’s ineptitude should give up pause; a competent game would have made this much closer, and even conceivably have delivered enough crucial swing states to give him victory. A closer election would also have meant fewer new Dem Senators, possibly even more GOP House victories, and more trouble for progressive ballot measures. In short, even if Romney still lost, the GOP would hardly be hurt at all.

      All because Romney had no game. Fixing that will be the easiest task for the GOP.

      I’m repeating myself, but it’s time for Obama and the Dems to deliver. And if the ‘pubs in Congress continues to behave as if nothing has changed (especially if no filibuster reform happens – that’s going to be the first test for the Dems), Obama has to be ready to both call them out publicly and to take his case to the people. Failure to deliver will definitely give the GOP new life, and they could even win in 2014 and/or 2016. That’s going to slow the climb considerably.

      • Gray in Mountains says:

        though there is not much hope there. But, realistically, Obama term 2, lets push ahead for the right measures such as ACA, removing regulations thoughtfully and not believe that every reg is “onerous”, economic and job issues, etc. That nation building at home stuff. Keeping the Post Office

      • sxp151 says:

        The problem Republicans have is too much money. When you have a party whose basic overriding ideology is to scam suckers out of their money so that rich people can have more, it seems inevitable that everyone involved in the scam will be looking for just a little bit more of an edge at every step. A party of grifters has a hard time not getting itself grifted.

    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

      The 2010 GOP victories led to widespread gerrymandering.  As a result, the Democratic majority in popular House votes still left GOP in control, albeit minus 7 seats.  I’m not sure the damage can be undone until 2022.    

      • parsingreality says:

        I’m hoping that another two years of Obama and Dem solving of problems will shift the balance.

        Don’t forget, if you tally up all of the votes of the people that put representatives in the house, Dems got half a million more than PUbs.  This is the tyranny of the vacant states.

        I understand that this is the result of gerrymandering and we will have to live with it to greater or lesser degrees for the next eight years.  I’m hoping it’s increasingly to the lesser.  

  2. Albert J. Nock says:

    Please do not forget, it is production of goods and services, which increases the quality of life.


  3. VanDammerVanDammer says:

    So this is just another Monday like any other?  Come on, we can do better.

    I’m gonna call out a big THANK YOU for the service, the suffering, and the sacrifices of our veterans.  

    • parsingreality says:

      Today is government employees get a day off because yesterday was Veteran’s Day day.

      Some of us did make note elsewhere over the weekend.

      Our annual neighborhood picnic, with about 240 attending, honored veterans.  All of the service’s songs were sung and America the Beautiful.  No hymn to war (Star Spangled Banner.) Even this not-knee-jerk American loved it.

      I had never noticed this refrain before, but I latched onto it:

      America! America!

      God mend thine ev’ry flaw,

      Confirm thy soul in self-control,

      Thy liberty in law.

      Forward. Mending mode now activated.  

      • VanDammerVanDammer says:

        Pols pulls a Romney and produces one retroactively?

        yes, yesterday was the actual day but Pols can separate Sat from Sun and it all gets lumped together.  Figured ColPols would follow gov practice and honor the day on a Monday.

  4. allyncooper says:

    WHEREAS, We The People of the sovereign State of Colorado, a member of that union of sovereign states known as the United States of America, and having lawfully repealed the prohibition of possession and use of marijuana for personal use….

    IT IS HEREBY RECOMMENDED that those who choose to do so smoke their first legal joint in tribute to Karl Rove, who saw $300 million go “up in smoke” in the 2012 election.

  5. dwyer says:

    My favorite all time radio show is “Wait, Wait, Don’t tell Me.  This was one of their predictions for the future of the Obama regime:

    Obama and Christie release a CD with Obama singing

    “He’s not heavy, he’s my brother.”‘

  6. Gray in Mountains says:

    about the Studpid States going for Rmoney

  7. harrydobyharrydoby says:

    The GOP appears to be still trying to push their recently rejected plan to resolve the fiscal cliff.

    Politico has offered 5 scenarios of their own. There are plenty of issues that need to be resolved (doc fix, AMT, etc.) which are also negotiating points.

    But I believe one line in the sand must be drawn.  My humble suggestion would be for President Obama to simply state:

    “Speaker Boehner, I have explained to the American people why on January 1st, I will raise taxes on those like me who make more than $250,000 per year.  The voters on November 6th agreed with me that that is a fair down payment on getting our fiscal house in order.

    Mr. Speaker, are you prepared to explain to the voters in 2014 why you and members of your party decided to raise taxes on the middle class as well?”

  8. VoyageurVoyageur says:

    Are you still arguing that the South didn’t secede to protect slavery?  Try on this quote from Nathan Bedford Forrest:


    “If we ain’t fightin’ fer slavery then I’d like to know what we are fightin’ fer.”

    • Nockles premise . . .

      He can’t wrap his tiny mind around the fact that other folks, unlike him, understand and accept that pigmentation does not make one less human.

      . . . until his premise changes, no pesky facts are going to change his conclusions.  

      • VoyageurVoyageur says:

        simple little souls who loved servin’ massa and  lived lives of joy until mean old lincoln freed them.  

           Seriously, the old Nockworst claim that the civil war was about secession, not slavery, ignores the fact that the only reason the South seceded was to save slavery.  And all that BS about freedom and liberty boiled down to the fact that they wanted the freedom to enslave others.

    • AristotleAristotle says:

      I was visiting my in-laws and had gone over to the next door neighbors with mom-in-law. They were flying some kind of flag that turned out to be the battle flag of some Confederate unit. I bit my tongue since I was a guest in his house, but it was all I could do to keep it between my teeth when he said that the Civil War wasn’t about slavery at all. I also knew that he was pretty ultraconservative per my father in law (a pretty right wing man himself, RIP), so that told me just about all I needed to know about him.

      He’s passed away from cancer since then, and I never did see him again, so I’m glad I stayed quiet. But when I meet someone, especially a white man in or beyond middle age, and I find out that he’s into the Confederacy and denies slavery as a cause when it was mentioned by name in several (if not all) of the secession statements, it tells me all about where they’re coming from.

      • VoyageurVoyageur says:

        But the South’s only reason for secession was to save slavery.  Alan Nevin’s marvelous eight-volume Ordeal of the Union makes that crystal clear.

          In contrast, Lincoln’s oft-quoted line that if he could save the Union by keeping slavery that he would keep it and if he could save the union by ending slavery, he would end it has to be taken with a grain of salt.

          For openers, how many slaves would the Great Pragmatist have freed if he had lost the Civil War?  And he knew, as did the secessionists, that slavery could not endure in the face of a hostile federal government.  The minimum requirement to be a Republican was to oppose any expansion of slavery to the territories.  As the country grew, that would eventually lead to a strongly anti-slavery Senate, joined by an anti-slavery house.  

           The only way to save slavery, as southern leaders like Alexander Stephens admitted, as to secede.  After they lost the war, the crafted the Lost Cause myth to hide the shameful truth.   But only the likes of Nockworst are stupid enough to believe it.  And he just hates black people — who he predicted before the election would riot if Obama was not re-elected.

        • AristotleAristotle says:

          about the causes of the Civil War. Slavery was the central issue. You’re right, it’s absolutely inescapable.

          One thing I learned from that class was how close we came to ending slavery, or at least ensuring its demise, when we were still operating under the Articles of Confederation. There was a SOUTHwest Ordinance bill under consideration that was virtually identical to the Northwest Ordinances. It included a provision prohibiting slavery in the Southwest, and it lost by one single, solitary vote.

          The whole Civil War could have been avoided.

          Granted, fighting the Civil War did settle questions that Nock and his master-race wannabe buddies like to pretend are open and valid. And perhaps some other crisis might have forced the issue at some point. Still, it was an amazing illustration of how a single decision can reverberate a lifetime later.

  9. ProgressiveCowgirlProgressiveCowgirl says:

    Where does a girl who has never fired a gun, but doesn’t want to be treated like she’s a cute little lady afraid of breaking a nail, go for lessons & a CCW license? Preferably in Jefferson County.

    Had a creepy experience with an ex-colleague this morning that reminded me, Cowgirl lives alone (except for the cowdog and cats) and Cowgirl still has no guns and that’s a problem.

    • Automaticftp says:


      I’d suggest checking with the Jeffco Sheriff’s office.  

      • ProgressiveCowgirlProgressiveCowgirl says:

        And have nothing but respect for law enforcement, especially the local department three blocks from my house. My PD is efficient, effective, prompt, polite, and respectful to everyone they encounter, as far as I’ve seen. Of course I would much rather the professionals handle any crimes against me.

        However, in the rare situation where that isn’t going to be the case, I’d like to have a means of defense besides shrieking and scratching and kicking.

        • Automaticftp says:

          Take a look at statistics around how many people are injured or killed with their own guns.  Also look at the number of incidents such as the one with which you’re concerned.  

          I’m recently returned from Afghanistan with the Army, and I’m fairly well-trained with a handgun.  I can’t think of a single incident where having a firearm would have made me safer in the civilian world, including two attempted muggings in NYC.

          I’d encourage you to consider other alternatives, including those suggested by parsingreality (and for those reasons).  

          • ProgressiveCowgirlProgressiveCowgirl says:

            Including people who are hella stupid with their guns.

            Not arguing though, it’s worth considering and you certainly have the experience to say so. I’ve been thinking about this for a while and life seems to keep handing me reminders to make a decision.  

            • Duke Coxdukeco1 says:

              awareness and vigilance…having a gun could be useful.. as long as you get good training. If you get a gun, though, don’t just get a noisemaker. Get a firearm with some stopping power…not a .22 or such.

              • ProgressiveCowgirlProgressiveCowgirl says:

                Recommended by a friend. Made in the USA, right size for my hands, and he owns a couple of guns from this maker that he says are reliable and easy to use.

                • Gray in Mountains says:

                  I have 1 in a much larger caliber that has always been trouble free. By trouble I mean it has never jammed or misfired. 9mm is good for self defense as long as you keep pulling the trigger until it is empty. Lightweight, easy to carry and to handle. After you fire 100 rounds or so you’ll be good at 20 yards or less. Then keep shooting at least monthly. Prepare to enjoy it

                • Duke Coxdukeco1 says:

                  One thing to consider is the ammo. There are two types of 9MM ammunition…9MM Luger (much more common) and 9MM Makarov. The latter can be hard to find. Go w/ the Luger ammo.

                  Oh…what Gray says about firing in self defense..Yes.

                  Personally, I keep a S&W 357 Magnum revolver for that purpose. One shot will drop most attackers, I am told.

                  One more tip…always use hearing protection when practice firing your weapon…ALWAYS.

                  • Fidel's dirt nap says:

                    One more tip…always use hearing protection when practice firing your weapon…ALWAYS

                    cigarette filters : )

                  • Gray in Mountains says:

                    .357 in bedside stand. Other advantage, easier to clean a revolver than non. No springs that may fly about the room resisting search

                    I’ll echo what duke said about 9mm ammo. Makarov is harder to find and it makes a smaller hole. If you want a round the size of a 9mm Makarov and you will have only one gun then you ay as well go with a .380.

                    But, HiPoint makes good, economical guns

        • VoyageurVoyageur says:

          I’ve taken it, though I never applied for the permit.  any local gunshop can refer you to a course provider, I’m sure.

        • Gray in Mountains says:

          but, since you volunteer with law enforcement there I’d suggest you query one of the older hands

    • parsingreality says:

      I keep a big can of pepper spray and a HD flashlight in my bedroom.  I’ve also heard forget the pepper spray, get wasp spray.  

      Now, that’s some bad boy stuff.  About $7, will stream for 20 feet, blowing petroleum carrier into a perp’s face.  It works so fast on insects it wouldn’t surprise me that there will be nonlethal effects on humans. Legal everywhere. Not available purse sized, obviously. (Not implying our very own PCG carries a purse!)

      I’m not against guns, although I believe we have way too many circulating. It’s just not always the best choice, including cost, training, and decision making under stress.

      I hope your incident stays unique and without a repeat.  

      • ProgressiveCowgirlProgressiveCowgirl says:

        Is Colorado wind. I once saw someone bear spray himself by spraying into a sudden gust of wind, and it wasn’t pretty. Granted there’s not much wind in my bedroom, but at my front door there often is.

        I have a big, heavy Maglite in my car already–love those things. Like WD-40, they have countless uses.

        I’ve considered something more like a Taser, but they seem even harder to use effectively and safely than a gun.

    • harrydobyharrydoby says:

      PCG — while the concept of having a handgun you can pull out and point at an attacker seems attractive, the best weapon to carry around with you is you.  Light, easy to handle and you don’t have to fumble around for it in an emergency.

      A sixty-five year old friend showed me a few moves from this self-defense technique.  It convinced me that I wouldn’t ever try to sneak up behind him if I valued my life or limb:

      Maga, Israeli Self Defense, is now available here in Colorado! Krav Maga is the official Self Defense and Fighting system of the Israeli Army. Specifically designed to be used by anyone, Krav Maga teaches easy to learn self defense techniques based on your bodies natural instinctive reaction to threats, and builds from there. Krav Maga is not a Martial Art, there is nothing fancy or artistic about what we do. Our classes are taught ONLY by certified Krav Maga Instructors, our teaching methods and training drills are unique and guaranteed to get you proficient at self-defense fast. We offer ongoing Krav Maga classes in Broomfield, Boulder, and in Denver, and seminars all around the United States and Colorado. Colorado Krav Maga Training Centers are all licensed Krav Maga Force Training Division Training Centers for Law Enforcement Training

      Like Parsing said — I hope this incident is unique and never repeated.

      • ProgressiveCowgirlProgressiveCowgirl says:

        I’d like to take some sort of self defense classes at some point, but I’m not sure I buy the marketing that there’s anything which can equalize the playing field between–well, you’ve seen me–and a big, strong guy with an agenda who is willing to commit a crime to execute it.

        I’m okay, by the way, thanks for your concern. If things get any weirder I’ll file a police report of the “I know it’s not a chargable offense yet but I want a paper trail” variety, but I don’t think this guy is any real threat. (And I mean that in the “assessment based on real-world experience” way, not the, “I’m female and conditioned to be a people-pleaser so I’m viewing this through rose-colored glasses” way.) It was just a wake-up call that if this dude showed up at my house to prove me wrong about his “threat level,” I’d be up a creek right now.

        • parsingreality says:

          As someone above said, awareness is a huge factor in people becoming victims. I’m always playing the awareness game when I take a walk, or am in public.  And, honestly?  I’m usually unaware!  Human nature to ignore outside as our brains churn over internal matters.

          But certainly, things like returning to your parked car, observing people walking towards you or loitering in your path, should become second nature.  

          And if you get into your car, and you realize that you didn’t look underneath while you were a distance away, or look in the backseat, just use it as a learning experience.  Tell yourself, “Never again.”

        • harrydobyharrydoby says:

          Just remember, if he’s got his arms around you from behind, a heel to his arch, and when he crumples forward, arch your back and break his nose with the back of your head.

          If he’s in front of you and tries to grab you, heel to the knee cap (or arch), and break his nose with your forehead as he crumples forward.

          Faster than you can aim and pull the trigger.

          Then as he’s on the ground, kick anywhere you feel would provide you with the most satisfaction.

          While dialing the police, naturally 😉

          • ProgressiveCowgirlProgressiveCowgirl says:

            Got it out of a book when I was 12 and practiced it on a bigger guy friend for a while (did I mention I was in “fight club” in middle school?) — works pretty well. I do need to make time for some real classes. I’d enjoy it and it’d be useful.

            “The Art of Shen Ku” is the book if you’re curious. It’s bizarre and wonderful. Written by a lunatic who lives on a houseboat.

    • MADCO says:

      Address: 17714 South Golden Road, Golden, CO 80401

      Phone: (303) 278-3500


    • a CCW permit holder, to anyone thinking about prospectively becoming one . . .

      When you do purchase that weapon, whatever you decide upon, if you’re going to have any chance at all of children being around where you keep that weapon, then you really must make this purchase also . . . the very same day:


      There are several dozens of similar types of easily accessible handgun safes on the market, and I’m not advocating for these particular example units, I am advocating strongly that you get one.  Please.

      A safe, or a gun lock, is not anywhere nearly as sexy as a firearm.  But, remember your reason for wanting to purchase a gun in the first place is “safety.”

  10. U.S. to Be World’s Top Oil Producer in 5 Years, Report Says

    The United States will overtake Saudi Arabia as the world’s leading oil producer by about 2017 and will become a net oil exporter by 2030, according to a new report released on Monday by the International Energy Agency.

    That increased oil production, combined with new American policies to improve energy efficiency, means that the United States will become “all but self-sufficient” in meeting its energy needs in about two decades – a “dramatic reversal of the trend” in most developed countries, the report says.

    And, some bad . . .

    The report confirms that, given the current policies, we will blow past every safe target for emissions,” Mr. Levi said. “This should put to rest the idea that the boom in natural gas will save us from that.”

  11. Gray in Mountains says:

    at the discussions of Mitt taking a position with the administration. Because he would have to disclose his income tax

  12. Albert J. Nock says:

    The Union is breaking apart as we speak, lol.  Only the Guns of Guberment will keep it together.

    “In the wake of last week’s presidential election, thousands of Americans have signed petitions seeking permission for their states to peacefully secede from the United States. The petitions were filed on We the People, a government website.

    States with citizens filing include Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas. Oddly, folks from Georgia have filed twice. Even stranger, several of the petitions come from states that went for President Barack Obama.”

  13. Gray in Mountains says:

    in my post election delirium I posted that President Obama received more Mormon votes that Rmoney. Clearly that is inaccurate. What is accurate is that he received a smaller proportion than Bush received

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