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October 15, 2005 08:00 AM UTC

Referenda C&D Campaign Takes Nasty Turn

  • 88 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

According to the Loveland Herald, the campaign against Referenda C&D has taken a nasty turn.

On Thursday night, Larimer County Clerk Scott Doyle and Colorado State University professor John Straayer received the same phone call. A recorded message said if they didnt immediately vote no on Referendums C and D, they wouldnt receive a tax refund, and the money would be spent by politicians to encourage illegal immigration.

It was a vicious and dishonest attack, Doyle said.

Doyle said hes received a number of complaints about the calls, which target people who have requested absentee ballots. It made me angry. Its very purposely designed to mislead the voter, said Straayer. Theres a very xenophobic and racist twist to this thing.

Straayer said the calls wording was unclear. The call said voters would not receive their tax refunds. There are two types of refunds in Colorado, he said: one for overpaying income taxes, and then the excess-tax rebates mandated by the Taxpayers Bill of Rights. Theyre playing off this concern that people have over illegal immigration. I dont know where they get that, Straayer said.

Doyle said hes not sure who called him, but his caller ID said Boomerang, with a Seattle-area area code. Honest to goodness, it was unbelievable, he said. I dont care if its to support C or against C, that type of tactic doesnt help democracy, and its uncalled for.

Politics is a dirty game, but there are limits to what should and should not be acceptable. It’s one thing to spin a message that C&D is a tax increase; while that isn’t an accurate statement because the tax rate won’t literally rise, you can at least make an argument for it. But it’s another thing entirely when campaigns resort to flat-out lying, and doing it with an anonymous recorded message is pretty low.

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88 thoughts on “Referenda C&D Campaign Takes Nasty Turn”

  3. This isn’t about lying.  This is about intentionally misleading people.  The fact is clear that voters WILL not lose their tax refunds if they vote for C and D and if the opposition is leading voters to think that, it is misleading and wrong.

  6. The bumper stickers say only “No refund for You.”
    they deliberately encourage the confusion.  And even “true” (yeah, right) glosses over the truth when he says you woan’t lose your income tax refunds from the IRS.  You won’t lose them from the state either, if you’re entitled to a refund, you get it.  One speaker told me today of six listeners who complained they would lose their federal and state refunds.  No true, but just another day in the lives of the out of state liars trying to take over colorado.

  7. Illegal-

    The state does spend money on services for illegals in the sense that services such as healthcare, and education are provided to everyone, regardless of status.

    In a sense, money that would be redirected by C and D would go to prop up services that may be used by illegals, but I think saying that you wont get you refund so the state can spend it on immigrants is not really an accurate portrayal of the situation.

  9. “Spin a message” that C is a tax increase????
    Give me a break!

    The first and biggest lie in this whole campaign is the one that the Pro C and D campaign is using that C isn’t a tax increase. 

    I’m against C for no other reason than that.

  10. You’ve got a point about the spin, Bob, but if you want to be, you know, “technical” or “accurate” about it, your marginal tax rate won’t change. The state will collect the same amount of taxes from you, they’ll just decide to keep some more of it in the hope that families can afford to send their kids to college. Splitting hairs, I know, but it’s worth the distinction.

    Also, if you’re making your decisions based on the degree to which each campaign lies, you might check out John Caldara’s comments about dildo art to see which campaign has the most casual relationship with the truth.

  11. Bob…  C&D are not a tax increase.  Tax rates are not going up.  All tax rates are staying the same.

    true…  TABOR doesn’t give refunds, TABOR gives rebates.  There is a fundamental difference between the two, but the “no” folks are deliberately lying to desperately spin their lied.

    And all of this funded by out-of-state Grover Norquist and Marc Holtzman’s rich daddy.

  12. yes, and true gladly goes to business who willfully employ illegal immigrants, but does not demand the state prosecute those who hire illegals.

    And true fails to realize that illegal immigrants pay taxes too.  And, they don’t get rebates or refunds from the state.

    Here?s to xenophobic racism!

  13. Even the Pro-C people have revised their message to say “Tax rates” aren’t increasing – an admission of LYING when they say it’s not a tax increase. Tax revenues go higher because the state keeps more!!! That’s and INCREASE! To paraphrase a Clintonism, “That depends what the meaning of increase is.”

    THE PRO-C LIARS – Especially OWENS – make me sick. Only problem is, there just might be enough dupes and socialists out here to let them get away with it.

  14. Too bad this broke on Saturday and not Monday, cause we could have a lot more fun.

    Yes – CO taxpayers pay between $300 million and $500 million every year in cash and services to ILLEGALS. That cannot be disputed.

    So, we are being extorted for more money, while we are spending up to twice the imaginary deficit (called overspend) on NON-citizens here illegally.

    And speaking of lying (take “pacified” for example), illegals use a LOT more resources than they pay in! So it is dishonest to bring up that illegals pay taxes. So do welfare cheats when they buy a gallon of gas.

    Not to mention, illegals are here ILLEGALLY! But hey, what are laws, and who needs borders?

    And the “blame america first” crowd has the audacity to lambaste Schultheis, et al for packing heat when they go observe drug-runners illegally crossing the border. CASA has the video, it’s no joke. But hey, maybe some of us are “pacified” by the product being smuggled into the US…

    Join and contribute to Colorado Alliance for a Secure America (CASA) today.

  15. ColoradoPols lost his one.

    I get to decide the truth.

    Confess and say three Hail Marys, a Glory Be, and two Our Fathers and your off the hook.

    The Pope Himself.

  16. The tax payers will have all the money refunded to them under the law in place when they paid their taxes. And we will never spend money to support illegal aliens. We need that money for our citizens.

    And I did not have sex with that woman

  17. Those of you in the no camp see nothing wrong with these phone calls?

    I haven’t yet decided which way I’m going to vote, and have been following along here to help me make a decision. Some in the no camp have crossed the line with this latest stunt, IMO, and is sure making me question whether I can possibly side with individuals who would resort to such tactics.

    You no voters really have no problem with phone calls like these? Are some of you seriously *defending* what’s been stated in these calls?!?

  18. Longmont_Independent,
    Yes because these calls are factual.  Much of the money that is retained (by keeping TABOR refunds) will go to services for Illegal immigrants, which in turn encourages more of them to come into this country.  That’s a fact.  Sorry if you are offended but if you beleive that the role of the state government is to encourage and take care of criminals (that’s what they are) than by all means vote yes on the referenda.  If you beleive otherwise, then vote no.

  19. true,

    Where in the referenda does it say the retained money is earmarked for services for illegals? Just point me to the line in the booklet. I have it right here. I’ll wait for a response.

  21. The reality, true, is that you’re trying to mix together two completely independent things. Does the state spend money on services that serve illegals? Yes. Does the TABOR money have anything to do with that? No. That’s an issue with how the state spends money IN GENERAL, not with this specific referendum.

    To say anything differently is completely dishonest. And to try to use a dishonest message to try to convince voters to go your way just tells me that you don’t think you can convince people if you stick to the truth.

  25. I think the correct term is “undocumented immigrant.” When you talk about “Illegals” the only images that spring to my mind are Tom DeLay and Bill Frist. Let’s not throw stones if we live in glass houses.

  26. I don’t know why the opponents to C and D are dragging illegal immigrants into this issue except to insert predjudice to fool people.

    What is a little known fact is, that illegal immigrants contribute large amounts of cash into Social Security, Federal and State income taxes, that they cannot get returned.  These deductions are witheld by employers, and mostly unreclaimed by illegals for fear of detection.

    They pay more than their share of social services they receive.

    The Wingers are smoking something.  No, they are just trying to confuse the issue.  Deliberate as usual.

  27. Longmont_Independent,
    Of course it doesn’t say in the blue book that services will specifically go to illegal immirgrants.  None of the “earmarks” in the blue book are etched in stone.  Those can change just as soon as the legislature begins session.  Education money and medicaid money do go to illegal immigrants.  You and others belittle the point that the state spends in excess of $300 million a year on services for illegals.  It is tough to say that our state budget is in a crisis when we spend that much on criminals.  Fix the problem not the symptoms.  Ref. C & D do nothing to fix real problems with our budget.

  28. Pacified,

    Refund not Rebate.

    From Article X section 20 7(d)) of the Colorado State Constitution (TABOR)

    “If revenue from sources not excluded from fiscal year spending exceeds these limits in dollars for that fiscal year, the excess shall be refunded in the next fiscal year…..

    The word “Rebate” isn’t in TABOR. 

    Bob

  29. Argumentive s.O.B.

    I got kids going to college someday too.  But I’m not willing to trade lower tuition for 4 years(alledgedly) for a lifetime of higher taxes for them.

    Bob

  30. The Post has their C and D poll out.  Here are some of the highlights…

    C wins by a margin of 47% yes, 44% no, and 9% undecided.

    D loses by a margin of 44% yes, 45% no, and 11% undecided.

    The largest number of undecided voters are Republicans.

    Support in Denver for the Referenda has grown to 66%, while opposition support has grown in the suburbs around Denver.

    A large majority of voters agree that the state is in a budget crisis but the number 1 solution for exiting the crisis, supported by 45% of them, is to cut spending accordingly.

    While voters tend to oppose specific cuts to higher education, health care, prsions, roads, and K-12 education, they support “across the board cuts” to the budget.

    Finally, for the 2006 Governors race, Bill Ritter would beat whoever survives the Republican primary with Ritter up 6% on Beaupruez and up 11% on Holtzman.  There are, however, a lot of undecided votes.

    What does this mean?  It means both sides have a lot of work to do in the coming two weeks.

  31. Two comments Bob;

    1.  You’re not going to get a lifetime of higher taxes.  In fact if C and D pass, you’re going to get a tax cut at the end of the 5 years.

    2. If C and D don’t pass, most of the state-run higher education programs outside of CU and CSU will close, become highly specialized, or become prohibitively expensive.

  32. You’re a great father, Bob.  Kiss away your kids’ chance for a decent education so you can spend a few more bucks on your SUV.  I drive a beat up old car but both my kids are now in graduate school.  Yes on C and D so the next generation will have the same opportunities our parents gave for us.

  34. I can’t hear you.
    Lalalalalalala…
    haha.. vote yes will loose!!  LOL!!!!!!!!!!
    Look at the Denver Post poll.  only 47% will vote yes. You loose!!!!!!!!!!
    My 9th grade education can figure that one out.

  35. Interesting perspectives by the RMN and the DP on two separate but relatively similar polls on C&D.  For RMN, they say that C&D is pulling ahead, etc…  For the DP, the tone is much more ominous for the fate of the tax increase.  One day apart. 

    RMN:
    “Fight over measures is close, poll shows
    Supporters seen as having an edge 21/2 weeks before vote”

    DP:
    “Outlook for C, D unclear in poll”
      and three sentences later… “But the poll uncovered several bad omens for backers of the ballot measures: too many undecided Republicans, slipping support in the Denver suburbs and a majority of voters who say they’d accept across-the-board budget cuts.”

    In both cases, it sounds like the pollsters are oversampling Dems compared to U’s– a common mistake by Mason/Dixon.  Anyone else have thoughts on that? It didn’t give a breakdown in the RMN, but the DP had U’s as the smallest represented affiliation, when in fact there are more U’s than D’s in the state.

  37. Last time I checked, xenophobia referred to specific race, I haven’t seen anyone on this thread, or in the media say they want to be rid of a specific race of illegal alien, just that they would like to stop the tide of illegal aliens that threatens our national security, and economic stability on a daily basis.

    Typical race mongering tactic.  Try and paint someone asking for laws to be enforced as a racist.

  38. You’d be wrong, speaker. Xenophobia does not refer to any specific race. It refers to a fear or dislike of foreigners and outsiders generally.

    You’re right about race-baiting tactics from the liberals, but your understanding of english needs a little work.

  39. speaker,

    the law that needs to be enforced is the law that says “it’s illegal to hire an undocumented immigrant”.

    It’s just like when the Feds bust drugs dealers.  You don’t go after the guy on the street selling little bits of drugs, you use them to get the big fish.

    The big fish are the employers.  Since illegals know the United States does not punish companies for hiring illegals, and because business owners know they won’t get fined for hiring illegals, the practice continues and everyone suffers except for the super-rich.

  40. WildWombat, You LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE BABY!!

    LOL!  Once again the people with a high school degree or less show who is boss in Colorado.  All your educated liberals are idiots and loose every single election.  Just give it up for Caldara.  He will be the next governor if he decided to run.  Funny, now you can close your beloved state government. No one needs it anyway. ALL WASTE!

    VOTE NO ITS YOUR DOUGH.

  41. By the way, WildWombat, you are probably just a state worker that gets those yearly HUGE raises us working folks dont get.  Hopefully you LOOOOOSE your job!  LOL!  Fat cat on a diet.

  44. Oh shame on me.  I went into the Army while lala was selling drugs, then went to college on the GI bill.  How awful.  I’m sure you never served your country, lala, unless you count Russia as your country.

  45. Todd,
    You said
    “You’re not going to get a lifetime of higher taxes. In fact if C and D pass, you’re going to get a tax cut at the end of the 5 years.”

    In 2011, Ref. C & D will allow spending of an additional 100 million per year, which reduces our refunds by the amount of that additional spending.

    The Blue Book also states that “This money may be used to repay debt permitted by Ref. D.” I don’t know why the word may is used. I’m curious to know though.

    Now while the debt created by Ref D obviously will end at some point. The 100 million coming out of our refunds each year, will never end. That is why some call this the Forever tax increase.

    This also brings to mind the fact that Ref C will forever change the base spending level.

  46. but the base spending level problem needs to be addressed, and corrected.  Norquist is selling TABOR in other states with the glitch fixed.  If it’s what he wants in Ohio, why not in Colorado?  The rachet is the most plumb dumb thing ever.

  47. The rachet is one of the best things about TABOR.

    Before TABOR when the taxpayers went through hard times such as in a recession the government raised mill levys or tax rates to compensate for reduced revenue.  Taxes were raised when taxpayers could least afford it.

    With TABOR, after a slow down in the economy, taxpayers get a chance to take a deep breath and consider just how much government (that means taxes) they can afford.

  49. Pacified,
    It still appears that after all the time that has been spent on these issues, that you still misunderstand the true nature of the problem.  The problem is not just the spending limits, the problem is also mandated increased spending with no guarenteed revenue source.

    Until the legislature can provide the citizens a plan that corrects the problems on both the revenue and spending side, I strongly encourage them to vote no on Referendum C. 

    It is often said that those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it, well if Colorado does not solve the revenue / spending conflicts, we will be discussing this same issue again in 5 or 10 years.

  50. Raiders,

    You’re absolutely right–TABOR is the true problem that will some day need to be addressed directly.

    Referendum C is not perfect.  As you point out, it addresses only the revenue issue by keeping Colorado from rebating small amounts of money while at the same time making damaging cuts to essential services.

    But as they say, “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.”  We can hold out for some theoretically “perfect” future bill.  (Although if C & D fail, the chances of any future reform in this area are quite dim.)  Or we can recognize that fellow Coloradans will suffer if C & D do not succeed.  It’s a step in the right direction.

    I’d rather know that we continued Medicare supplements for disabled and elderly citizens and that we made our kids’ schools safe again, even if the way we did it didn’t fix all of TABOR’s problems.  Politics is the art of compromise, and I think the broad support from Republicans and Democrats for Referendum C & D shows we’ve got the best compromise we’re going to get.

  51. forever,

    The 100 million coming out of our refunds each year, will never end.

    That’s just untrue.  After five years, we return to calculating the budget and potentially TABOR rebates exactly as we did this year.  The low-end baseline has changed, but unless you expect a decade of shrinking population and revenue, that’s irrelevant. (And technically, we’re discussing “rebates” from TABOR, not actual tax refunds.) 

    “In fact if C and D pass, you’re going to get a tax cut at the end of the 5 years.”

    The rate drops from 4.65 to 4.50.  This is quite literally the “bone” that was thrown to the anti-tax crowd in order to achieve this historic compromise.  It’s curious that none of you who oppose Referendum C choose to mention this, especially as it offsets the “forever tax increase” you made up.

  52. Let me speak more clearly…
    TABOR is NOT the problem.

    It is a combination of madatory spending increases and TABOR that is the problem.

    Until the two are addressed together, we will be revisiting this issue in the years to come as the state will always come up with reasons as to why they need more money to spend. 

    I would prefer it if you folks would just be honest and say, “We are creating a ballot initiative to repeal TABOR” and get it over with.

  53. Raiders,

    I would prefer it if you folks would just be honest and say, “We are creating a ballot initiative to repeal TABOR” and get it over with.

    I agree–that would be a more intellectually honest debate that could solve our budget crisis in a more permanent way.  It is frustrating to witness all the hew and cry about Referendum C, when truly it’s just a five-year band-aid over a larger problem.  (And as you may know, Governor Owens and others are supporting Referendum C & D because they see it as a last-ditch effort to keep TABOR intact.)

    But Referendum C is what we’re voting on this year, not actual TABOR reform, and I still encourage you and others to be realistic about politics and decide whether or not to support it, not some theoretical Referendum we wish we were presented with.

  54. Beaupreznit,
    Let me be realistic for you in a way that even you can understand:

    I have already stated many times on this blog that I do NOT support Referendum C, have voted against it, and encourage others to do so as well.

    Quite plainly, referendum C is a rip-off for the Colorado Taxpayers since it does not address any of the spending issues.

    It seems that we have finally gotten you to show your true colors, you think TABOR is the cause for all of the problems, because you can’t stand the thought that goverment should have to live within it’s means.  The problems are a mix of spending and revenue, and until you address the spending side, you are being short-sighted and your actions will ultimately force the state into bankruptcy, because recessions will happen again, and if you don’t limit the spending, you go over the limit.

    As far as Bill Owens goes, I don’t trust him, and nor do many others.

    As far as your comments on politics, I believe I am more realistic than you are on this issue, quite simply because I understand that this Referendum is a short-sighted idea, and am willing to say it.  I am not willing to accept that this is the best the legislature can do.  We pay them good money, and as a taxpayer, I expect them to do their jobs.

  55. Beauprenzit, BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT THANKS FOR PLAYING!!

    I think i am in a Comedy Club that is run by you democrat idiots.  But your funny at least!  LOL/ROTFL!

    Look, I will put it simply now so even you idiot liberals can understand.  There are always going to be masters in the world like me and then workers, and it is the stupid, not educated LIBERAL idiots who destiny always makes the workers.  This has been fine since the beginning of time, except now the workers are whiny and want health insurance and stuff.

    BZZZT!!  No, sorry.  All of the Colorado government is literaaly waste and if you vote for C you deserve the tax increase you workers get if your that stupid!  No one needs state government anyway.  ALL WASTE!

    Seriously, Caldara owns you.  He is going to run for Governor or senator someday and then it’s going to happen, and the liberal workers will still be whining.

  56. At least lalalalala is honest about his feelings: government is a waste.

    The word is beginning to come out from the Pro C&D camp, complete with quotes from the likes of Caldera, Bruce and Andrews.  The opponents of C&D don’t want you to have public K-12 schools.  They don’t want you to have affordable higher education.  They don’t want you to have public roads.  They don’t want to have a public support system for the disabled and elderly.  They don’t want to have inspectors certifying the cleanliness of restaurants and food packaging businesses.  The don’t want anyone regulating the pollutants in your water supply.

    They want fire and police protection – that’s it. (And some of them probably would be okay without even that…)

    That is what you’ll be getting by following the No on C&D crowd.

  57. Wow, if that is not the biggest BS diatribe I have heard in a long time, I don’t know what is.  All your comments there were the ususal scare tactics provided by the yes crowd.

    I am against referendum C and I voted against it, but that does not mean that I do not want government to provide these services, it means I am holding out for something better than this proposition.

    I am not willing to accept that this is the best the legislature can do. We pay them good money, and as a taxpayer, I expect them to do their jobs and you should too.

  58. Raiders,

    I think Phoenix Rising was addressing lalalalala, not you.  That person is not alone in admitting that he or she opposes Referendum C & D because he/she wants to see state government literally dismantled.

    But you oppose them because you say they aren’t good fixes to a serious problem.

    So we agree that Colorado should support higher education, help the infirm and elderly with their health care costs, and keep our schools and roads in good repair.  We also seem to agree that Referendum C is not a permanent fix to the budget issues that make paying for these things a hard choice.

    So here’s where we split:

    You think C addresses only one side of the budget issue, and therefore should be voted down until a better solution comes along.

    I think C addresses only one side of the budget issue, and should be passed since it buys us a few years to design a better solution.

    I’ve put quite a few words in your mouth, so please do correct me.  I’m just trying to look for our common ground, since that’s where we can have productive debate.

  59. Indeed I’m not attacking the position of all the No on C&D people above, but the leaders of the No on C&D campaign are almost universally rabidly anti-government.  lalalalala and others here represent that view quite well.  The Vote Yes on C&D leaders are starting to quote the likes of Norquist and Bruce, because it is these extremists who are leading the campaign against C&D.

    I’m all for efficiency in government, but I think we’ve reached a stage where we can barely afford to buy an audit of the various state agencies.  I get occasional updates from friends working for the State, and one of them came up to me the other night and told me their department couldn’t afford to buy envelopes with which to respond to citizen requests.  This person gets home at 9-10pm nightly – if they get home at all.  We cannot afford another couple of years of this funding level while we figure out where to save money.

    Vote Yes on C&D for Colorado’s future.

  60. Beaupreznit,
    I said
    “The 100 million coming out of our refunds each year, will never end.”
    You said
    “That’s just untrue.” and implied I’m making it up.

    Please refer to your blue book and tell me where it states an end date for the 100 million.
    Also, the blue book refers to REFUNDS, not rebates.

  63. It’s nice that TABOR (and C&D/blue book) refer to refunds, but tell me it isn’t misleading to say that C&D will “take away your refund”.  I’ve used the term “rebate” to refer to the money TABOR forces the state to return for a long time now; it’s an obvious way to counter the misleading statements of the “No on C&D” campaign – a single word that clarifies just what is being changed.

    Listen to your President and don’t ‘disassemble’ on the issue.  Your tax refunds are safe from Ref. C&D.

  64. forever,

    You’re right that the Blue Book uses the word “refund” to cover both state tax refunds as well as TABOR rebates.  We’ve obviously lost the word war on this one, but the confusion resulting from using the term loosely is obvious.

    The $100 million you refer to happens only if Referendum D also passes, and is optional.  The state is not required to keep it…and yes I’m laughing sarcastically as I write this sentence.  The money comes out of the same TABOR funds that theoretically could be rebated to taxpayers, and therefore if both C & D pass and the state needs to starting in 2011, our TABOR checks that year could be reduced to allow Colorado to use up to $100 million.

    (It’s also worth noting that those same conditions trigger a drop in your state income tax rate to 4.50 from 4.63 percent, which arguably would more than make up for your smaller TABOR rebate.)

    Given that TABOR rebate checks have been a rare and underwhelming event, that both C & D must pass in order to let Colorado optionally use $100 million from TABOR sources starting in 2011, that your income tax rate declines the same year, and that your state tax refund check is untouched, I still assert calling it “the forever tax increase” is wrong.

  65. Phoenix, you idiot.  The Constitution requires excess state revenue to be “refunded”.  And rightly so.  A refund is the full amount paid, a rebate is a part or fraction of the amount paid.  Hence, the full amount of excess state revenues is to be refunded.

    But please spin away.  I encourage you to look up the term “shill”.  Not even the parameters of langauge can stop a shill.

  66. Beaupreznit,
    I am holding out for something better, because a bad idea doesn’t become a good one when it is the only idea on the table, it is just a lack of options… a math problem if you will.

    We agree that there are services that we need the state to supply, and we may even agree on the methodology to supply them, though there will always be some differences. 

    I don’t believe that the state is in such a disasterous position that we cannot address both sides of this issue by curbing spending in some areas that are fundamentally inefficient (Amendment 23) and increasing the amount of collectable revenue in order to sustain a functioning state government.  However, this current proposal does not provide that solution.

    I believe that the key actors on both sides of this debate need to act like adults, instead of the chicken little garbage that they are all guilty of.

    Guess we did find some common ground, with our own differences.

  67. Is there any money in the anti C and D campaign?  There are atractive “Yes” signs cropping up all over.  I saw a piece of cardboard the other day with “No on C and D” scribbled in pencil.  Pretty funny!

  68. I was on hold for an hour and half this morning to discuss C and D on Peter Boyles and never got on.  Let me tell you I was surprised.  Peter Boyles is the king of half-truths.  He respects Hank Brown so much that he is willing to question his integrity.  I guess no one is below smearing from the anti-Colorado Economic Recovery Act side

    This meme that the anti-Colorado Economic Recovery Act side doesn’t have any money and somehow is the little guy in this fight is hilarious. 

    That must be the reason they need to con us Coloradoans with the tax-exempt Independence Institute with the same tax status as the Red Cross, I am sure they are doing similar work.

    That must be the reason we are getting out of state cold calls from people that do not live in our state and could careless what happens to our state.

    That must be the reason they need Marc’s daddy from out of state to funnel more money to defeat C and D and also help his son. 

    I guess the anti-Colorado Economic Recovery Act side is so small that they can’t actually find any people in Colorado that feel the same way to fund their fight. 

    Can someone from the anti-Colorado Economic Recovery Act side explain to me why they need out of state money to push their side? 

    Their argument must be just so strong that they need Washington money to help them along. 

    At least we know who is funding the pro-Colorado Economic Recovery Act side.

  69. marshall,
    First of all, the money isn’t necessarily coming from out of state.  Just because the call comes from out of state does not mean that the money to pay for that call did so.  Many calling agencies operate on lines from other states.  Second, even if some money does come from out of state, what does it matter.  At least we know that those dollars aren’t being thrown down for the gain of millions of taxpayers dollars.  The big spenders on the yes side stand to gain much.  The rest of us stand to gain our own tax refunds/rebates, whatever you want to call it, and the piece of mind to know that we are not overpaying our legislature to attend coctail parties and spend more of our hard earned money.

  70. Can someone from the anti-Colorado Economic Recovery Act side explain to me why they need out of state money to push their side?

    Their argument must be just so strong that they need Washington money to help them along.

    We’re very frugal, any money is welcome. They applaud and envy our TABOR, you’re correct.

    I’d feel more guilty being on the Yes side that is almost solely supported by those feeding off the trough. (am I wrong? please let me know if I am)
    Whatever the yes side does seems to be ok, even when taxpayer supported orgs. use their land to promote the tax increase. The Sect. of State and County says it’s ok though. Something wrong with that.
    I’m wondering if the no side donor names are revealed, what will be done with those names? Seems to be highly important. The yes side seems desperate to get those names. I really wonder why, especially since the No side has chump change compared to the big bucks the Yes side has.

  71. Out of state money, out of state lobbyists, all being used to ultimately influence our taxation and our gubernatorial election is wrong, in my mind.

    There is an obvious link between the Holtzman campaign and the “If C Wins You Lose Committee”, in addition to the money are the TV ads. The person running the “If C Wins” committee and their highest paid consultant (employee) is Sam Pimm, who was Dick Leggitt’s assistant in last year’s failed West Virginia gubernatorial race. To say there is no connection between the campaign and this issues group is silly. My guess is that Leggitt is controlling the whole effort. Leggitt and Pimm came here together after leaving West Virginia under bad circumstances, having originally come from the Washington DC metro area the year before.

    I am a lifelong Colorado Republican and I don’t like all the out of state money and lobbyists.

  72. Just received that phone message – when I called back, the answering machine was filled to the top! Went to the website mentioned and wrote to say that I’d been undecided until the phone call – and would now vote “YES!” on C & D, and will tell all my friends to do so, also.

  75. Any Republican for C&D should be drummed out of the party, so don’t give me any of that crap about where the money is coming from. Who cares? And who cares if Holtzman is connected to If C Wins? At least someone is standing up for Reagan principles.

    It’s morally reprehensible for non-profits who rely on generous donations for charity work to lobby on behalf of extorting taxpayers.

    At least Independence Institute doesn’t pretend to help the poor then stick it to everyone else with a $5 billion dollar tax increase.

    Maybe the problem in the GOP is ‘lifelong Republicans’ who blast those out-of-state “lobbyists” working for conservative causes. We true conservatives can do without you.

  76. Anything for the cause, eh?

    ?? – a “rebate” is, according to the Princeton WordNet, most accurately defined in this contect as a refund of some portion of an amount paid.  You pay your defined income tax, and get a refund of the portion collected in excess of that allowed by law – a “rebate”.  I use the term accurately for its definition, and to set it apart from what everyone thinks of as their “refund” – the regular income tax refund.  No-one against C&D has been interested in discussing the plain language accuracy of the “No on C&D” ads, because without adding the word TABOR to the ad, it’s pretty obviously misleading.

  78. We are sending a message to the legislature that we no longer tolerate waste in state government. We no longer want to pay Ward Churchill $94,000 to teach 13 students this semester while ignoring the plight of the homeless and disabeled. We are saying  stop the madness and get your priorities in order.

    Thats what we’re doing in Colorado.

  79. Keith, I’m not willing to trade “sending a message to the legislature” for hurting disabled and elderly Coloradans who depend on Medicare assistance, or for sending my kids to school in dilapidated buildings, or for doing away with in-state tuition.

    You can do “tough love” with your children if you want, but the same approach is nonsensical when applied to thousands of fellow Coloradans who depend on these crucial services.  When those services disappear, what lesson have you taught them?

    As Julie says in that article:

    “I am my brother’s keeper,” Caplan says firmly. “That is my responsibility as a human.”

  80. I am not under the impression that you want to send a message to the legislature.

    I am not under the impression that the pro-C crowd is interested in setting priorities.

    I am not interested in whether or not the reasons I vote are “nonsensical”.

    What I *am* interested in is helping the needy and cut out ridiculous spending.

  81. I remember a debate I went to where a man spoke up, he’d owned a nursing home. He told us and the C & D debators, that Medicaid fraud is out of control. Medicaid is expected to increase over 50%, I think.

    So we should throw money at the problem, and then hope the corruption gets resolved?

    Wouldn’t throwing $10’s on a fire really be more useful?

    We’re not solving problems by throwing money at them. The article from the Rocky stated that the one woman who was homeless, now living in a subsidized apartment has a monthly income of $579. It said medication will eat most of that up. What is wrong with that picture?

  82. I am not under the impression that you want to send a message to the legislature.

    Nor did I say I wanted to.  I voted yes because I approve of what C & D do, not for indirect reasons.  If that sends a message to anyone, it’s a message to Colorado’s citizens that we will continue to help our young and our old.

    I am not under the impression that the pro-C crowd is interested in setting priorities.

    That’s a distracting talking point that does not address the merits of Referenda C & D at all.  The “pro-C crowd” appears to be more than half of Colorado.  We have set our priorities, and evidently continuing vital state services is at the top of the list.

    I am not interested in whether or not the reasons I vote are “nonsensical”.

    Ok.

    What I *am* interested in is helping the needy and cut out ridiculous spending.

    I share those interests, and in the same order.

    Voting down Referenda C & D because you think it will tell our legislature they need to make further cuts reverses those priorities, and ultimately fails to address either of them.  We’ve made cuts.  We have a lean budget, and Democratic and Republican legislators who pinch every penny.  The plans are in place to cut Medicare, CDOT, and school funds next year.

    Why would any politician willingly stop funding these vital and popular programs?  Either because he or she wants a speedy career end, or because the rampant waste you imagine simply isn’t there.  Do you consider CDOT’s 50 long overdue road projects to be waste?  Is finishing legally required school repairs a waste?  You can focus on dildos and Ward Churchill if you like, but that completely misses the big picture.

    We must be serious about rooting out waste, no-bid contracts, state money given to companies who use it for offshore outsourcing, and corporations who don’t pay their taxes.  Ending Medicare supplements and taking funding away from school and road maintenance and higher education does not accomplish that goal.

  83. What happened in Colorado was a sad day for every American. Clever politicians in both parties used scare tactics and clever manipulative deceptive advertising to get C approved. They put the issue on ballad during an off year knowing the turnout would be bad. Only 21% of Colorado voters voted on the issue. The politicians (backed by millions of dollars from special interest groups) only needed to manipulate 11% of the voters to get the biggest tax increase in Colorado history passed. 5 Billion Dollars. Your damn right the politicians were happy. Now they have so much money to plunder, it will take them the first year just to figure out how to spend every last dime. When it comes to money, politicians will cross party lines and stick a knife in the back of a working man every time. The sadest part of this rape of the working man is that the money will never be seen by our children. School administrators with six digit salaries that never even see a child, and our corrupt public school system will finish off the money long before it impacts our children.  I?m living to see this wonderful country fall prey to taxes, energy companies, drug companies, and illegal aliens. We live like sheep and pay like kings. Yes, they have us all just about where they want us. God save us all from the monsters of our own making.

    Glenn Rollins
    Arvada, Co.

  84. What happened in Colorado was a sad day for every American. Clever politicians in both parties used scare tactics and clever manipulative deceptive advertising to get C approved. They put the issue on ballad during an off year knowing the turnout would be bad. Only 21% of Colorado voters voted on the issue. The politicians (backed by millions of dollars from special interest groups) only needed to manipulate 11% of the voters to get the biggest tax increase in Colorado history passed. 5 Billion Dollars. Your damn right the politicians were happy. Now they have so much money to plunder, it will take them the first year just to figure out how to spend every last dime. When it comes to money, politicians will cross party lines and stick a knife in the back of a working man every time. The sadest part of this rape of the working man is that the money will never be seen by our children. School administrators with six digit salaries that never even see a child, and our corrupt public school system will finish off the money long before it impacts our children.  I?m living to see this wonderful country fall prey to taxes, energy companies, drug companies, and illegal aliens. We live like sheep and pay like kings. Yes, they have us all just about where they want us. God save us all from the monsters of our own making.

    Glenn Rollins
    Arvada, Co.

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