Monday Open Thread

“No scoundrel is so stupid as to not find a reason for his vile conduct.”

–Shakti Gawain

68 Community Comments, Facebook Comments

  1. mamajama55mamajama55 says:

    Yes, Democrats Should Run on Impeachment. Discuss.

    Whether tis better

    to rid the white house of the stink

    or ride a Blue Wave on it.

    • ZappateroZappatero says:

      See, it’s not just me. And even though you-know-who would pee his pants, this is the msg D’s need…and now. 

    • RepealAndReplace says:

      In 1998, Newt Gingrich decided that the GOP would run the mid-term impeachment on Bill Clinton's lying under oath and impeachment. Defying the laws of political gravity, the GOP had a net loss of five House seats.

      Perhaps Nancy Pelosi can beat that. Or not.

    • JohnInDenver says:

      Without a heck of a lot more information than was in the article, Democrats should run on something OTHER THAN impeachment.

      The author assumes a number of abuses by Trump. That's fine. But she doesn't show any information on any of the claims being supported by enough of the voters in enough of the House districts or in states to pressure their Representatives or Senators. She doesn't show anything suggesting there is yet enough proof to sway a large enough group of Senators to vote to convict even without political pressure. An impeachment resolution without a substantial chance of conviction would feed the narrative of the "attacked" Trump.

      Most importantly, she shows NO evidence that running on impeachment would motivate more Democrats than Republicans in the election or that it would be a net large enough to increase the number of winning campaigns.

    • notaskinnycooknotaskinnycook says:

      Seems to me, we can do both. First, we ride the wave into Congress, then we fumigate the White House.

      • VoyageurVoyageur says:

        Just don't impeach a n inept stumblebum crook with fascist tendencies and replace him With a highly competent , rigidly honest fascist who could be elected for eight more years. Mike Pence.  Leave Trump batteted and bleeding and leading his party to the worst shellacking sincre 1932.

        Long live president Amy Klobuchar!

      • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

        That's kind of what I'm thinking, too, cook. Realistically, impeachment will go nowhere without control of Congress.

        But if we do control congress and still won't impeach, I'd have a problem with it. Pence is elbow deep in Russiagate – he's not going to come out of a Trump impeachment smelling like a rose.

        I don't think it does any harm, though, to draw up articles of impeachment. There are grounds (emoluments clause, conflicts of interest, on and on). I don't think it does harm to talk about impeachment, keep the pressure on.

        Who cares whether someone portrays it as "Dems attacking Donald Trump"?  He should be attacked. The man sold his country to the Russians.

        People want us to clean house.

        • notaskinnycooknotaskinnycook says:

          I think You're right, M.J. The Yam's never been held responsible for anything he's done. The impeachment chatter is making him nervous. Corner him and he's bound to lash out stupidly, compounding his guilt. And, yeah, I'm betting Pence is up to his neck in whatever shenanigans his Fearless Leader is. As I've said many times, Pence owes Yammy-pie such a debt of gratitude for saving him from the ass-kicking the voters of Indiana were prepared to deliver, that he'd follow him to the ends of the earth. 

          • Duke CoxDuke Cox says:

            A good friend of mine, Frank Breslin, sadly left us way too soon. But he once gave me a piece of political advice that seldom has failed me.

            He said, " Any time you are in a political contest, the most effective strategy is to piss off your opponent…and then shut up."

            I just hope the Nobel Prize committee will give the Peace Prize to the South Korean leader. He deserves it. 



  2. VoyageurVoyageur says:

    A massive Trumpstink front hit Canada over the weekend, causing casualties in seven nations.  Trumptoadies cried    "traitor" at Canadians donning gas masks and spraying Fabrese  on victims.   Sunday the Trumpstink front moved to Singapore.  Now a cruel dictator put in power without an elected majority and whose only accomplishment is an ugly haircut awaits his hour upon the stage   And so does Kim Jong Un.

    • RepealAndReplace says:

      Perhaps the two of them will launch the G-3 Group: the USA, North Korea and the Russian Federation.

      I don't think the G-6 leaders will lose any sleep over that.  

  3. flatiron says:

    The survey of nearly 600 likely voters in the Republican primary found Stapleton, Colorado’s two-term state treasurer, leading with 36 percent support among those surveyed, 13 percentage points ahead of Mitchell’s 23 percent… 

    Restaurant owner Greg Lopez, a former Small Business Administration official, has support from 10 percent of those surveyed, while retired investment banker Doug Robinson, a nephew of Mitt Romney, has 4 percent.

    27 percent of likely primary voters still undecided

    • DavieDavie says:

      Mitchell’s attack probably comes too late to pull enough votes away from Staplegun, but it would be interesting if his campaign flops like his cousin Jeb’s.

      Nutteranus has got to be confused and afraid to say who he supports, thus his silence (although he will proclaim his undying support for the Cheetolini’s America Fucked agenda)

    • JohnInDenver says:

      After the gaffes of the petition process, the sudden relevance of the Assembly, and the news coverage of campaign appearances during the primary, supporting any of these candidates, I'm surprised the undecided are only 27% of the likely voters.

      Amazing that the only Republican in the field elected to a state-wide office can only garner a third of likely voters in a Republican primary. Doing that little with more Establishment support and more money against opponents with so little public prominence or political success is even more notable.

  4. MichaelBowmanMichaelBowman says:

    Filed under 'FFS'

    Rural residents on Colorado’s Eastern Plains wary of plans for overhead Spaceport launches

    “I don’t think there’s any reason we have to put the people of eastern Colorado in jeopardy in order for them to have a glorified carnival ride from Front Range Airport,” said Greg Brophy, former state senator from Wray. “All of the risk is in rural Colorado, and any benefit goes to the Front Range.” 

    • MichaelBowmanMichaelBowman says:

      Pols – there are two links to this story, one from the DP and one from Business News Network.  If I try to embed either into the headline above the magic box sends it to the black hole.  I replied with the link and it marked the reply as Spam and erased it.  FYI.   Are we banned from using DP links? 

    • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

      Adams County residents would be the most impacted by the Front Range Spaceport project if it gets off the ground (pun intended). I think it would be cool to have an active commercial spaceport in northern Colorado. It would certainly help precision mech engineers like my son – he programs machines to make precision aircraft parts, and has helped to  make a capsule door for the Orion craft.

      Brophy doesn't seem to be too concerned about the 100s of nuclear missile silos, both active and abandoned, on the northern plains.

      I found your Denver Post article by searching Brophy's quote.  Some days Pols makes me prove I'm human 6X a day – I've gotten into the habit of always copying my comments before I hit "post".

      • MichaelBowmanMichaelBowman says:

        That’s the link I was attempting to use.  It’s hit-and-miss with me on the robot thing, and seems to be more active when I’m posting from my iPhone. 

        Per the concerns in the article, 1) yes, ‘people’ understand there are ‘people’ east of I-25. The kindergarten whining on this at the coffee shops never stops. 2) the folks around Anton are wheat farmers and that ‘crop spray window’ is a pretty narrow one. Those planes (as noted in the article) hug the ground (Class G airspace). I highly doubt the FAA is going to ground crop sprayers.  Ridiculous argument. 3) ditto for Flight for Life in our neck of the woods. 

        If anything this is a strawman for a War on Rural Colorado 2.0. At least this time the enemy is an actual rocket (ignore the fact it’s pointed towards space and not Anton) and not public policy that’s forcing another $2+ billion worth of wind farms onto our local tax base. The horror. 

        PS: While location might make is challenging to attract the engineers necessary for operations, locating this project someplace like Lamar would be a good way to bring some economic activity to the region and an argument for returning EAS to the community.

      • MichaelBowmanMichaelBowman says:

        Let's not let facts get in the way of a good ruse by our favorite watermelon slayer.  Remember his testimony before the Air Quality Commission in 2014 imploring them to reject the methane rules, describing it as akin to an extension of the War on Rural Colorado, then referring to supporters of the rule as Flat Earthers, and then pleading for science to rule the day?

        Ironically, it's science that is quantifying the massive costs to Colorado agriculture from fugitive methane emissions.  

        You really couldn't make this stuff up.  

    • davebarnesdavebarnes says:

      “All of the risk is in rural Colorado, and any benefit goes to the Front Range.”  which as it should be.

      • MichaelBowmanMichaelBowman says:

        We've gotten pretty good at managing our risks in rural Colorado thanks to the largess of the US taxpayer.

        I suppose some enterprising insurance company could offer catastrophic cow insurance in the event something falls out of the sky and lands on one in the 51st state after lift-off.  I'm still trying to figure out how something pointed at space near DIA is going to put folks in Anton at risk?  Or how we can figure out how to blast these things off next to the fifth-busiest airport in America but somehow we're going to keep a crop duster a hundred miles away, in Class G airspace, from spraying wheat?

        Maybe in the next Farm Bill the feds can be cajoled into covering the cow risk (the government already provides 50% catastrophic crop coverage to farmers at no cost to the farmer).

  5. mamajama55mamajama55 says:

    Petitions are being circulated now ( by paid circulators)  for Initiative 173, which prohibits candidates self-funding (aimed at Polis and Mitchell – probably more at Polis, since Brophy & BJ Nikkel are the registered agents).

    The other petitions getting signatures are  the "takings" initiatives:

    111 or 113

    These would set up legal roadblocks to citizen action against oil and gas drilling on public lands – I think.  Someone who knows "takings" law better than I do can weigh in.

    The young lady I talked to outside of the Walgreens couldn't tell me the numbers of the initiatives, but she did say that this was her "job".

    Her spiel went like this: "Hi, would you like to sign to prevent millionaires from taking over elections?" "How about protecting private property from being seized by the government?"



    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

      I would definitely support a limit on self-funding, but the u.s. Supreme Court won't.  So what I would like to see is that if self-funders exceed the limits imposed on outside contributors, then those limits are abandoned on other candidates for the same office.  Polis could still toss the $10.5 million he has into this pot but if michael bloomberg wanted to give Cary $2millio  as a partial offset, she could accept it.   Present law is grossly unfair .

      • Powerful PearPowerful Pear says:

        Initiative 173 would be unconstitutional as “V” has indicated. A candidate must have the right to contribute what ever amount of funds he/she chooses to finance a campaign. 

        If you want to impact campaign funding do this:

        Make contributions to “Parties”, “PAC’s, IEC’s, or transfers between candidates, taxed at a rate of 100%

        Make contributions directly to candidates eligible for a tax credit.

    • PseudonymousPseudonymous says:

      Taking (also called eminent domain and condemnation) is a process by which a government decides to remove property from private ownership for public use.  Any kind of property can be taken.  The Fifth Amendment requires that a taking be compensated "justly" by the government to the owner.

      There are cases that are clear.  If the government's building a road, and it goes through your farm, they can take that land, but they have to pay you the "fair" value of your loss.  Generally, you don't get to say "no, thanks, I'll keep the land."  They take it, and you can fight over the compensation if you want.

      There's a special group of "takings" where the government doesn't actually take the property, but they cause its value to be reduced through regulation.  Unsurprisingly, these are called regulatory takings.  Generally, most regulations don't meet this threshold.  Zoning, in particular, affects the value of property.  Unless a property is zoned into uselessness, the law generally doesn't support the idea that it's been taken.  But saying you can't put a slaughterhouse in a residential subdivision may reduce the potential value of your land.

      For many Conservatives (and Libertarians, hey Elliot!), there's a strong desire to broaden the conditions under which regulation is treated as taking private property for public use.  The idea being that it will both deter government exercise of regulatory power and that folks who do get regulated will be left "whole."

      These initiatives would act such that landowners would be "harmed" if any law or regulation (not just O&G) in any way worked to reduce the value of someone's land, which itself will be the source of endless litigation.  Got your property before the city passed a zoning ordinance limiting chemical plants' proximity to schools?  Taking.  "I could build a cyanide plant here.  Now I can only build a bodega."  Passed a law that said you can't mine coal out from under others' properties in a way that causes their land to collapse?  Taking (by the way, that's the actual case that started the madness of regulatory takings– the Supreme Court said this was a taking).

  6. MichaelBowmanMichaelBowman says:

    “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me"

     Matthew 25:40, 45, NIV

    What a surprise it will be when we arrive at the pearly gates, only to find out that God isn’t a straight white man wearing a Rolex who tolerates p-grabbers, but an empathetic, gay woman of color with a vivid memory.

    • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

      That photo of the stolen rosaries will be on display alongside the piles of gold fillings and skin lampshades that came out of the concentration camps.

      What are these Walmart detention centers for children besides concentration camps? How are they different than incarcerating Japanese people in WWII?

      We don't even know what conditions are like inside, because they won't let journalists or even Senators in.

      I had extended family members who died in Nazi camps. How is this any different?


      • VoyageurVoyageur says:

        Well, the fact that the kids aren't dying comes to mind.  Don't ruin your argument with hyperbole.

        • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

          And how do we know that they're not dying? No neutral observer has been let in to see them. There were ~ 600 (at least) children locked up in that Walmart that  Senator Merkeley tried to get in.

          In cyclone fenced cages, on the ground with maybe space blankets, based on what Merkeley reported of the detention center he did see. Hardly a healthy environment for children. What is happening to them in there? How many are being abused or trafficked? The government "lost" 1500 children, supposedly released to neighbors or friends who may or may not have been background checked.

          The government says that the kids are being fed nutritious food and getting services – are we supposed to take their word for it? When our own President calls them "animals"?

          We know of at least one parent that committed suicide when they took his child. How many kids will be traumatized for the rest of their lives by this experience?

          I think of all the citizens who said and did nothing when their neighbors were rounded up and locked away – in Dachau, in Treblinka, in Granada, in Manzanar.  No doubt, there were those who advised these neighbors not to make a fuss, not to get emotional. The Nazis said that conditions were humane, that people were working, that all would be released after the war. Anyway, the European Jews were not really people, and the American Japanese were untrustworthy. Like the children of immigrants seeking asylum, they were expendable.

          What to do:

          I've written to my reps. They haven't written back on this issue. What I think: we need to have mass marches and surround these detention camps, stay there until we know what's happening. There will be some happening around the country June 14 – check the hashtags below for more info.

          So you will have to just put up with these emotional posts and pics from me and others, until we get some idea of what our government is covering up. 

          If you want to do something other than condescendingly advise me to "tone it down", here's a list of actions at "Where Are the Children? How to Help". There is supposed to be a nationwide march on June 14. check #marchforstolenchildren and #wherearethechildren for details.

          So far, the only Colorado action listed on the “Families Belong Together / taking action” site is one on Thursday the 14 at 5 at the ICE Center in Aurora:

          GEO Group ICE Denver Contract Detention Facility

          3130 Oakland St, Aurora, CO 80010

          • VoyageurVoyageur says:

            So the U.S. Government is deliberately murdering millions of immigrants .  That's your story and you're sticking with it!


            No wonder you aren't taken seriously.

            • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

              I'm saying we don't know.   I'm saying that we need mass action now to draw attention so we can find out.  (Pols also posted these actions on the "What you can do to fight back this week" thread).

              I'm saying that these could well be the precursors to atrocities like we saw with Japanese internment and WWII concentration camps.  That regardless, it is an atrocity to "intern" children who were brought to the US by legal asylum seekers. 

              Yes, I am going to compare it to Japanese incarceration here, and Jewish incarceration in WWII. They also started out with "small steps" that people could ignore. Locking up children at the border is a small step. I'm not saying we're there yet. But
              "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.." – Santayana

              Do you trust your government to tell the truth about what's going on with those hundreds of young kids in the Walmart (and over 6000 in detention nationwide)? Do you know that everything's just fine? If so, please share it – their families are desperate for news.

              But this is your usual tactic: distort and hyperbolize my statements,   ("government is murdering millions of immigrants"), and attack me for using hyperbole…so that you can  attack my credibility in the process. 

              No one should be surprised by it….it's what you do. I know that eventually one or more males will come along, saying pretty much the same thing I'm saying, like: watch out, this lock-em-up shit looks like what happens in totalitarian regimes, and then you'll be fine with it, because a man said it.

              Why didn't you answer Marian  Berry, who asked what was up with all of the personal insults, V?


              At any rate, yes, I will be doubling down on asking people to join in the June 14 Families Belong Together Actions, along with hundreds of thousands of people across the country. It will be another grassroots – organized mass action, and hopefully it will accomplish its purposes – to expose what ICE is doing, to reunite the children with their families, to stop these cruel and inhumane practices.


              • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                Your tactic is to lie likea trooper.  When I catch you at it, you fly into a rage and accuse  me being a man.

                You just claimed the United States govern ment is deliberately murdering children by the thousands.

                Your proof is that you said they are.

                You are either an utter narcicisst or just drunk again.  And you whined that our congressional delegation didn't take you setiously.

                Look, Nutjob Nobody takes you seriously when you throw out groundless accusations of mass murder.

                Sleep it off and stop bothering serious people with your alec jones act.


                • RepealAndReplace says:

                  Your proof is that you said they are.

                  No, her proof is to challenge you to prove that it isn't happening. Sound familiar?

                  • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

                    Bullshit. V came up with the "millions of immigrants killed by the government" line, then attributed it to me. Read it again.

                    All of this uproar because I compared a picture of confiscated immigrants rosaries (that Mike posted)  to exhibits of what was taken from holocaust victims on arrival at the camps.

                    And I asked how are these camps different from concentration camps or the internment camps for Japanese citizens during WWII. They are more like the internment camps than concentration camps, but, yes, there will be deaths.

                    There have been deaths in ICE custody for years.   A transgender woman recently died under mysterious circumstances. Do you really think that piling on hundreds and thousands more people will result in fewer deaths?

                    Certainly, there are people dying in those detention centers. Not millions…but too many.

                    • Gray in Mountains says:

                      I do hope there is a list being kept with names and addresses of these kids we're abusing and their parents. Someone will need to provide some intervention over the next several years to help prevent the formation of terrorists. We, the USA, is creating future terrorists. And, if there is such a list, who, other than rightful folks, will use that list?

                      Charles Manson was alive when Trump was elected. Manson could not have been worse than Trump 

              • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                It'snot an insult to say you are lying by accusing the government of killing thousands or millions of children.   You made that claim, doubled and tripled down on it.   It is a fact that you are lying about it.

                You should be ashamed.  But you don't believe in shame, apparently.  But stop stalking me.  I don't respect the opinions of liars or narcicissists..

                • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

                  You know you're kind of nuts, right?

                  At least where I'm concerned, you take the most possible extreme interpretations of what I write, fly into a virtual rage at the exaggeration you made up, and abuse me verbally for exaggeration and hyperbole. It gets old.

                  What I originally wrote was that the picture of the confiscated rosaries would be on display alongside the pictures of the gold teeth of holocaust victims.

                  I also suggested that maybe people are dying inside these detention centers, and it would be good to know what's really going on.

                  So you're objecting to me comparing the two, because millions died in the holocaust, and probably only a few dozen might die in the detention centers. Immigrants die and disappear all the time – desaparecido , nobody knows what happened, they never came back home.

                  I'm a child of a holocaust survivor, so I know that history pretty well, and I figure I can break Godwin's rule if anyone can.

                  The Nazis first dehumanized their victims, then they took their property away (this happened to my grandparents and great-grandparents), then they locked them up. And most didn't survive because they were deliberately murdered. My great-great aunt and uncle died in the camps (the exotic dancer and the Kaiser's physician, whom  I mentioned earlier).

                  So far, in the USA at the border, we're only at steps 1-3 : dehumanize, take their stuff, and lock them up. But I do think kids and others are dying or will die in those centers. Not millions, and probably not by the efficient, calculated methods of the Holocaust. But by disease and neglect and lack of access to health care, from trauma and grief.

                  You chose to conflate the two, as if I was accusing the US government of a Nazi-style killing operation.  No, it is more subtle than that, but in my opinion, almost as evil. What's happening now with immigrants at the border is a lot more like the Japanese internment than it is the Holocaust. That doesn't make it OK.

                  You object to me comparing the two. Because the scale and degree of evil is different, mostly.  That's your right, and I suppose I could have been more careful in the wording of my post comparing the pictures of the rosaries and the gold teeth.

                  But they belong on the same continuum, even if we're not at a death toll of millions.  The continuum of cruelty and inhumanity is what happens when we have a scapegoated, ostracized, poor, inconvenient population that is an obstacle to a political end. Trump wants the immigrants gone, not because they are any real threat to the US, but because he said he would build a wall, and that's never going to happen.

                  In Puerto Rico, the verified death toll is now at 1052, and there are estimates that the true death toll is much higher, like in the 4,000 range.  The "official" toll, the one Trump gave himself an A for, was 64. Directly caused by Hurricane Maria. The rest of the verified 1,052 were indirect deaths –  from disease, neglect, and lack of access to health care and clean water. 

                  Our government lied about it. So did the Puerto Rican government. Do you really think that the Texas government and the Federal agencies ICE and Homeland Security won't lie to cover up a few infant and child deaths from disease, stress, abuse?

                  Those Walmart windows of one detention center are covered with black plastic. The low-level guard denied permission for a US Senator to enter. The United Nations is scolding us for human rights abuses.

                  Thousands of people will rally on June 14 to try to illuminate what's happening in the detention centers and to stop the inhumanity and deliberate cruelty of isolating the children.  If you really care that much, write to your reps and tell them that this is an outrage, this isn't America,  this isn't what Vietnam veterans fought for.

                  But get off my case, and stop stalking me. You're not my editor, you are not responsible for my words. You can disagree, of course, and you did.  Rather than telling and (yelling in print) about me supposedly stating that the government was "murdering millions of immigrants", you could have just asked if that was what I meant.

                  Maybe that wouldn't be as satisfying for you as telling me what you think I said, and what you think I meant, accusing me of being  drunk or a liar in writing it, etc, etc, etc. Down the rabbit hole we go again.

                  Anyway. Stop freaking cyber-stalking me. Don't read my posts if you find them to be so horrible. Find a better enemy.

                  • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                    You literally compared our immigration policy to the holocaust, which murdered 11 milliom people.  You are either a drunk or a lunatic.  Maybe both.

                  • The realistThe realist says:

                    mamajama, thanks for your thoughtful statements about what's happening in the detention centers. As I posted previously, if anyone is interested at all in some of what is going on under the jurisdiction of the #TrumpsterFire administration, read this article about the TX Dept of Health's investigations. TX child protective services should do a thorough investigation, but it doesn't appear that they are. I worked for a very long time in child protection, and families in this country are investigated for far less than what is known about the conditions in the detention centers for brown children.

                    • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

                      Thanks, realist. I knew there was some avenue I was leaving off the list. I'll try the form you posted for child protective services. I've even considered offering to foster a child or sponsor a family. 

                      I did read the San Antonio article, and it's very concerning. If I have my hair on fire about this, it's because I know refugee kids. I teach them.  I know some of what they go through to be able to come up here and get an education in a (relatively) safe country. 

                      I know what they're getting away from in El Salvador, Columbia, and poorer areas of Mexico. It sounds terrifying, like living in the most crime-ridden neighborhoods in America, 24-7.  The police there are all on the take, and are mostly a private for-hire force, protecting only those who can afford it, making our police here look damn good.

                      Anyway, let's keep the pressure on however we can.

          • The realistThe realist says:

            Turns out two Texas state agencies don't seem to agree with each other (that never happens, right??!!). Based on what I read in this article about the many health violations at some of these detention facilities (a significant number of the violations go beyond environmental health issues), and based on what I've read in other news reports (such as visits to facilities by Members of Congress), I filed an online report of abuse/neglect concerns with the Texas child protective system.

            Sadly, here's their reply: "We have reviewed the information and determined it does not appear to involve a substantial risk of abuse, neglect, or exploitation. The information has been forwarded to the local Residential Child Care Licensing office for further review."

            Perhaps others would like to submit their concerns. [Create an account and complete the online reporting form.]



          • RepealAndReplace says:

            And how do we know that they're not dying?

            You are going to ace your final exam in Trump Logic 101, MJ! How do we know they are not dying?

            How do we know Obama was not born in Kenya? How do we know a birth announcement published in a Honolulu newspaper in the early '60's wasn't a mistake? Or planted there?

            What the government is doing to those children is reprehensible enough without you and others going overboard.

            And by the way, given the continued drops in the unemployment rate and now the bromance breaking out between the Old Dotard and Little Rocket Man – with Dotard looking to receive a Nobel prize – we may need to start thinking long term since Dotard will probably be re-elected.

            Thank you, Jill Stein, and your gaggle of useful idiots. 

            • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

              Have you been inside the detention centers, R&R? Do you know what conditions are really like? If not, try to find out….and when you do, then you can post it with all the snark you wish. Put yourself in the place of one of these parents. What would you imagine?

              If we don't get some transparency on the detention centers, then ,yes, people including children, will die.  From disease, neglect, stress, abuse.

              I never wrote that it would be "millions". – Vger in his  histrionic way, attributed that to me, then proceeded to scold me for something I never wrote. You can jump on board with that if you like, but I expect your time would be better spent writing to your representatives to demand transparency and humanity at the border.

              Immigrants disappear all the time, and usually nobody knows about it.  You may think that's kooky talk, but ask the guy who picks up corpses in the desert.

              By the way, voter suppression was and remains a much bigger problem than your obsession of Jill Stein voters.

              • Gray in Mountains says:

                I'm overwhelmingly ashamed of our governments actions imprisoning these children apart from their parents. It can not be justified. Though I am relatively certain that there are some caring people looking after them, there are also people who only want/need a job and don't give a hoot about the kids, might even dislike kids.

                But, in the best schools and day care centers disease is common. Ever hear of the flu?

                • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

                  Thanks, Gray. All true. I don't think our government even has to deliberately try to murder detained immigrants – just pack them into warehouses with inadequate medical care and food, and let a policy of benign neglect start taking them out.

                  It's so callous it's disgusting.

    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

      Yes, and she's lesbian to boot!

      Comment goes to michael’s gatekeeper observation.

    • notaskinnycooknotaskinnycook says:

      Okay, I need help with this. It's like taking the toilet paper out of Arlo Guthrie's cell in the Stockbridge jail. Do they think they're going to weave them together, make a ladder and escape?

      • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

        Taking the rosaries is a way to dehumanize and destroy people's spirits, cook.

        They may have some other rationale for doing this, like this is prison and people can't wear jewelry in prison, but really, this is about breaking people's spirits. That's all.

        The failure to return peoples’ belongings upon deportation represents one more way that ICE and CBP have failed to uphold basic law enforcement standards and human rights norms in their rush to expand the United States’ detention and deportation apparatus. – No More Deaths

  7. DavieDavie says:

    Will something substantive come out of the Trump-Kim meeting?  Who knows…

    The first-ever North Korea-United States summit will start with a one-on-one meeting between a brutal dictator known for breaking his word and a president famous for his daily dishonesties.

    With two unreliable narrators in Kim Jong Un and Donald Trump, how will Americans know what they actually said and agreed to with each other?

    “We won’t,” said Jeffrey Lewis, director of the East Asia program at the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies. “The whole Trump team has been an unreliable narrator throughout this process. It’s like ‘Rashomon,’ but really stupid.”

    In Akira Kurosawa’s classic movie, the murder of a samurai is told through the vastly differing recollections of a handful of witnesses. For the meeting scheduled to begin in Singapore Tuesday morning ― Monday night on the United States East Coast ― there will only be two witnesses: each nation’s translator.

    “And I don’t think either interpreter will be in a position to correct the record if the self-reporting by Kim and Trump doesn’t reflect what was actually said in the same manner and tone,” said Jenny Town, assistant director of the U.S.-Korea Institute at Johns Hopkins University.

  8. VoyageurVoyageur says:

    Duplicate post.


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