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November 23, 2009 04:32 PM UTC

Monday Open Thread

  • 94 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.”

–Edmund Burke

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94 thoughts on “Monday Open Thread”

  1. I’ve said it before  — beginning with Bush’s TARP and through Obama’s corporate bailouts — these programs were like a couple of yuppies making $60k each, but leveraging themselves into a $1 million house with nothing down, a 2 year balloon ARM and hoping for something.

    Treasury officials now face a trifecta of headaches: a mountain of new debt, a balloon of short-term borrowings that come due in the months ahead, and interest rates that are sure to climb back to normal as soon as the Federal Reserve decides that the emergency has passed.

    Even as Treasury officials are racing to lock in today’s low rates by exchanging short-term borrowings for long-term bonds, the government faces a payment shock similar to those that sent legions of overstretched homeowners into default on their mortgages.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34…

    1. Do you take the big hit – a full-blown depression – or do you suck up mounds of government debt to fund an economic stabilization plan and then figure out how to pay for it when times are better.

      Your response is typical of pro-TABOR “conservatives” – don’t spend anything, we can handle whatever comes.  Completely ignores reality, but at least it’s ideologically consistent.

      1. Tomorrow’s GDP revision 30% below previous forecasts will show that the $ trillion dollar stimulus plan has had no sustainable economic multiplier effect on the economy.

        Sure flat is the new growth model, but 500k more and new Americans going to the unemployment line every month is troubling.

        1. Think.

          Companies weren’t spending money.  Banks weren’t lending capital.  If the picture looks as ugly as the graph above shows, then perhaps it would have been good had its creators shown a fourth line: adjusted “without recovery plan” based on current numbers.

          I’d say, given the forecast numbers, we’d be at 11-12% U3 unemployment without the stimulus…

          1. It could be observed that either the Admin is incapable of accurately understanding what affects unemployment, or this Keynesian ungodly waste of money (Stimulus) is bad theory.

            Going back and moving the goalposts isn’t going to fly at election time.

            This isn’t Bush’s economy any more.

            1. That is like saying you didn’t start the fire because you handed the matches to someone else. It will take many years to undo the damage created by the “free market” Bushco, Inc. geniuses.

              1. I agree that this is indeed still Bush’s economy.

                However, it is no longer perceived as such.  Public perception matters in politics.

                The heat is on.  Like it or not, if things don’t turn around soon, Dems are in real trouble.

                1. Such is the sad state of awareness of the “great unwashed”. And, while I know you are right about public perception, I just can’t hardly stand to let the ditto-heads get away with such crapola.

                  1. Is perception that the Dems are elitist and call voters “the great unwashed” with a straight face.

                    If unemployment isn’t below 9% next summer, not even my unwashed buddies are going to buy your ‘Bush economy’ crapola.

                    1. can’t be used as proof of anything, all we know is that all of the projections a year ago were for a far worse economic debacle than that which we have experienced. In measuring the success or failure of Obama’s reaction to the economic crisis, that’s the only salient piece of information we have. The absolute numbers don’t tell us anything, because we do know that we can’t compare Obama’s performance against the absence of an economic crisis: The economic crisis did exist when he took office.

                2. And I have to agree – if the economy is still in the toilet and unemployment is not headed sharply down – then we Dems deserve to lose a bunch of seats.

                  They’ve turned things around for wall st. where they have record profits and bonuses. Meanwhile everyone else is told to man up and ride it out. That’s not going to sell.

                  It’s the dichotomy that will drive this election.

                  1. I couldn’t disagree with you more, and was surprised to see you post that. Whether we will lose seats or not, due to public perceptions (and misconceptions), is another story, but the notion that anyone in office is responsible for (or can necessarily control to the degree you suggest) the traditionally lagging indicator (unemployment) in an economic downturn that has been far less severe than anticipated, is simply wrong.

                    Turning things around for wall street is a systemic response to a systemic problem. More blame would be due to an administration that chose, instead, to pander to the populist impulse to cut off our nose to spite our face, rather than insisting on keeping its eye on the ball even in the face of criticism.

                    The bonuses issue is a side-show that has no other real relevance than to rankle people with its blatant unfairness. It’s irrelevant economically. Sure, it would have been better to be able to rein that it, but there are legal and practical constraints on the political ability to do so, and it is not a crucial (or even substantively relevant) aspect of the challenge we are facing.

                    The error in this that I perceive is the Administration’s overly optimistic projections, against which it’s success or failure would later be measured. But even that was at least partially defensible on the grounds that there was an urgent need at the time was to restore consumer confidense.

                    1. When you look at the money & effort that went in to keeping Citigroup alive, including keeping the stock and bond holders whole, when they were beyond broke.

                      Then compare that to the piddly little effort to address unemployment. I think we Dems do need to be help to account on results, not on excuses.

                    2. pursuing the best informed and most promising policies politically attainable, which sometimes give instant results, and sometimes take years to mature. Government has limited control over our natural and social institutional environment, and it is just as dangerous to human welfare to try to exert too much control in response to popular demand as it is to exert too little.

                      I haven’t done the analysis, nor have I seen one that I would rely on, so I can’t speak to whether criticism is warranted in this specific instance. But based only on the facts you cite, I see no per se evidence that it is warranted. Keeping Citigroup alive and the stock and bond holders whole may well have been a necessary means to an economically desirable end: If so, it was the right thing to do.

                      As you and I have both stated before, in various contexts, the devil is in the details, and no meaningful evaluation of an economic policy can be made without some very precise attention to some very complex details.

            2. Even the February numbers are way above the initial Obama projection – assuming that’s where the numbers really came from.  (And let’s assume they did.  Considering the graph, this projection was made prior to his taking office…)

              Do you think “the Obama economy” and his policies had much to do with that?  The graph continues on that line, just as you’d expect them to do if no-one was intervening and the economy was following is previous course…

              Now look at the May and June numbers.  They’re starting to mirror the recovery plan numbers pretty closely – just higher up the scale.

              Simple analysis: the Wall Street And Bush Are Stupid Economy was worse than those projections suggested.

    1. Fascinating, Libby.

      http://www.google.com/hostedne…


      And it’s not just the frozen parts of the world that have felt the heat in the dozen years leading up to next month’s climate summit in Copenhagen:

      _The world’s oceans have risen by about an inch and a half.

      _Droughts and wildfires have turned more severe worldwide, from the U.S. West to Australia to the Sahel desert of North Africa.

      _Species now in trouble because of changing climate include, not just the lumbering polar bear which has become a symbol of global warming, but also fragile butterflies, colorful frogs and entire stands of North American pine forests.

      _Temperatures over the past 12 years are 0.4 of a degree warmer than the dozen years leading up to 1997.

      Even the gloomiest climate models back in the 1990s didn’t forecast results quite this bad so fast.

      “The latest science is telling us we are in more trouble than we thought,” said Janos Pasztor, climate adviser to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon.

      1. That “climate change” has been occurring for millions of years.

        ps how come FL is not under water yet?

        Meanwhile NYC is looking at spending billions over the coming years to hold terrorist trials vs billions to shore up the levies.  Why?

    3. Even though it’s a common sense, no-brainer that millions of metric tons of man-made CO2 emissions has an effect on global climate, this nifty graphic from a proven basket case has shown me the light!!!

      Excuse me while I remove my car’s catalytic converter. It’s going to be my own way of protesting all the climate change alarmists. I’m one of YOU now, taddy!

    4. From Very Surprising Science Quarterly:

      Climate scientists studying arctic ice levels have been shocked by the latest revelations: water at the north pole may be freezing during the winter.

      “I’m flabbergasted,” said Swedish researcher Verner Burner Wernerherner. “All this time we’d only been looking at the ice in the summer, because who wants to come up here when it’s cold? Apparently we missed a lot of ice that way.”

      Canadian scientists concur. Climatologist Hooward Boowers Toonsend told us, “I’m flummoxed. I think I may have wasted the past thirty years. Studying Arctic ice levels in the summer isn’t even the worst part. What makes me feel bad is studying hurricanes in the Bahamas in January.”

      Czech meteorologist Vdrnt Bzpntqf announced that the new theory of “warm in the summer, cold in the winter” would revolutionize science as we know it. “I’m flattened. Apparently water is wet and the sky is high,” he said, looking up in awe.

      In other news, the National Snow and Ice Data Center released a graph showing October ice levels over thirty years. “Just ignore that ugly blue line,” said American researcher Yankee Howdy Bobby Lou. “The important thing is the increase from 2007 to 2008. Would ya look at that?”

    5. But, hey, at least you finally noticed something that you think you could use in the fight against global warming (science).

      Too bad the stolen data doesn’t help your cause…

      Washington Post:Hackers steal electronic data from top climate research center

      In one e-mail from 1999, the center’s director, Phil Jones, alludes to one of Mann’s articles in the journal Nature and writes, “I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (i.e., from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.”

      Mann said the “trick” Jones referred to was placing a chart of proxy temperature records, which ended in 1980, next to a line showing the temperature record collected by instruments from that time onward. “It’s hardly anything you would call a trick,” Mann said, adding that both charts were differentiated and clearly marked.

      That’s it – that’s the trick pulled on the public.  Figuring out how to properly combine proxy and actual temperature data into a single graph.  Oh, the horror!

    6. I’m sorry to inturrupt you again, but the master has decreed that I continue to update your posts. Libertad 2.0 believes global warming will be the downfall of mankind.

      The denier part of our programming has been written out. Thank goodness the master fixed the bugs in the first itteration of Libertad.

      End transmission.

      1. Not to post auto-play videos?

        It’s rude because it sucks bandwidth on the user end.

        Most of us are capable of clicking the “play” button ourselves.  The way he did it, we have to click “pause” every time.  I’d rather opt in than opt out.

        1. What’s the problem, is your provider capping your bandwidth usage?  Or, are you worried its cutting into YouTubes margins?

          They didn’t create the embed capability without a long-term goal in mind.  This is web 2.0, man up and get in the game.

  4. This is an amazing soup, easy to prepare, and makes a gorgeous first course. A great alternative to traditional fare. (And I swear to you, it doesn’t taste like pumpkin, either.)

    Pumpkin Curry Soup

    Served with hot, crusty bread.

    Preparation Time: 10 mins

    Cooking Time: 20 mins

    Servings: 6

    2 tablespoons butter or margarine

    1 cup (1 small) chopped onion

    2 large cloves garlic, finely chopped

    1 1/2 teaspoons curry powder

    1/2 teaspoon salt

    1/4 teaspoon ground white pepper

    3 cups chicken broth

    1 can (15 oz.) LIBBY’SВ® 100% Pure Pumpkin

    1 can (12 fl. oz.) NESTLÉ® CARNATION® Evaporated Milk

    MELT butter in large saucepan over medium-high heat. Add onion and garlic; cook, stirring frequently, for 2 to 3 minutes or until tender. Stir in curry powder, salt and pepper; cook for 1 minute.

    ADD broth and pumpkin; bring to a boil. Reduce heat to low; cook, stirring occasionally, for 15 to 20 minutes. Stir in evaporated milk. Transfer mixture to food processor or blender (in batches, if necessary); cover. Blend until smooth. Serve warm.

      1. It’s so cheap to make, too, which is another big plus. When you get to a bigger store, grab some canned pumpkin and stock up. Have a good Thanksgiving, by the way.  

        1. Have a nice Thanksgiving as well.

          I don’t think they sell canned pumpkin anywhere on the continent, actually. But I happen to have a friend who brought some down from Miami recently, so I won’t be pie-deprived on Thursday.

          1. They have plenty of it right now for pumpkin pie filling. I grabbed a ton of it because our Safeway in Estes often doesn’t carry what I need and can only get down in the valley. I feel your pain, believe me. :K)

    2. Why even have Thanksgiving if you’re not going to have pumpkin pie?

      Hell, why even bother with autumn?

      Not that your soup isn’t delicious, but you’ll pry my pumpkin pie from my cold dead fingers. (Yes I eat it with my fingers, what of it?)

          2. carries some Entenmann’s.  Specifically, sweet breakfast crap which, living in New Jersey, I grew up on.

            I haven’t seen Entenmann’s pumpkin pie, however.  If I do, I’ll let you know.

  5. Asked three contenders in next years Governor race what they would cut to make the budget balance.

    Is it it just me, or did Scott McInnis completely evade the question?  

    BTW, I’m a Scott McInnis supporter.

  6. McInnis totally evaded the question of where he would cut the budget. When politicians make such pronouncements about cutting the budget, we must demand specifics!

    1. Governing is easy in Scott McInnis’ mind.  Asked by the Denver Post how he would plug a $1 billion budget shortfall, McInnis channeled his inner Sarah Palin.  His solutions?  “Place job growth as the top priority”, “restore respect for Colorado taxpayers”, “improve (government) program performance” and, “create a rainy day fund”.  

      That wasn’t so hard, now was it?  Finding himself with spare time, he could move on to other fields.  I imagine McInnis’ financial planning advice would be to “buy low, sell high”.  His universal coaching advice for any sports team would be to “score more points than your opponent.”

      In the real world, balancing a state budget in today’s environment requires hard choices bound to leave most, if not all constituents, dissatisfied.  Any politician, like Scott McInnis, who suggests otherwise is not telling you the truth.  

  8. There seem to be two ways of viewing politics, one backward-looking and one forward-looking. They are not mutually exclusive, but they frame one’s orientation to the process.

    The backward-looking view is that politics is the institutionalization of conflict, pacified civil warfare, so to speak. The forward-looking view is that politics is a vehicle for cooperation, for capturing and distributing the fruits of mutually beneficial behaviors. Again, they are two sides of a single coin, but which side you focus on matters.

    The former view encourages an “anything goes that advances my ideological agenda” orientation, while the latter encourages a perception of multi-layered goals, with the deeper layers involving improved civility, rationality, and efficiency in the process itself.

    This dichotomy is an implicit theme in many debates here, so I thought it was worth noting (it came up, implicitly, on another thread this weekend, which is why it’s on my mind). I sometimes see the basic division, and the basic struggle, as existing between the respective adherents to these two orientations, rather than between the more conventional political ideological poles.

    1. is a variation on the traditional “conservative” vs “liberal” dichotomy.  One camp resisting change and promoting the stability (and success) of the nation based on its past success; the other promoting change as the way to future successes.

      But I have to disagree with the move to categorize “backwards-looking” and “forward-looking” as promoting certain tactics in politics.  It has been the case at certain times in our past that “forward-thinking” politicians feel the need to be ideological and “anything goes”; and it has also been the case that “backward-thinking” politicians have promoted the very civility and efficiency that you now find they lack.

      1. my use of “backward-looking” and “forward-looking.” I meant them in the sense that seeing politics as pacified war is backward looking in that it focuses on the positions of the individuals (or groups) involved prior to resolution, whereas seeing politics as a vehicle for cooperation focuses on the positions that the individuals (or groups) involved might achieve subsequent to some institutionalized integration of interests. In this usage, they correspond to more combative or more accommodating almost by definition.

        I am not talking about backward or forward looking policies, which, as you say, corresponds to the traditional liberal-conservative split, and does not correlate to a more combative or more accommodating orientation.

    2. We shouldconsider default- publicly. Loudly for several months.   Then but back all our debt- and announce that it was all a terrible misunderstanding, of course we’re not gonna default.

  11. Over 2,200 veterans died in 2008 due to lack of health insurance

    A research team at Harvard Medical School estimates 2,266 U.S. military veterans under the age of 65 died last year because they lacked health insurance and thus had reduced access to care. That figure is more than 14 times the number of deaths (155) suffered by U.S. troops in Afghanistan in 2008, and more than twice as many as have died (911 as of Oct. 31) since the war began in 2001.

    The researchers, who released their analysis today, pointedly say the health reform legislation pending in the House and Senate will not significantly affect this grim picture.

    (links includes large PDFs which are called research, so Gecko, Libertad and others clicking on them may experience an onrush of facts.)

    http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/…

  12. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11…

    Gov. Mark Sanford of South Carolina will face formal ethics charges on 37 counts of using his office for personal financial gain, according to a list of allegations issued by the state ethics commission on Monday.

    The charges on the list include spending state money on business-class plane tickets, instead of flying coach; using state aircraft to attend political and personal events, like the birthday party of a campaign contributor; and using his campaign fund for non-campaign expenses like a ticket to President Obama’s inauguration.

    …The 17-page document released Monday, which is similar to an indictment, lists 18 occasions when Mr. Sanford flew business class or first class when, it alleges, “no exigencies existed to justify an upgrade from coach,” as required by state law. All but two were international flights, but in one instance Mr. Sanford flew first class from Columbia, S.C., to nearby Atlanta.

    There are nine counts alleging the misuse of state aircraft, which accuse Mr. Sanford of using government planes to travel to get a haircut, attend a son’s sporting event, participate in a book-signing, go to a birthday party and attend the “soft” opening of the Hard Rock Park in Myrtle Beach, S.C.

    The remaining 10 counts charge Mr. Sanford with using money from the Sanford for Governor Campaign fund for personal or nonofficial expenses.

    Mr. Sanford spent $864.90 to attend a Republican Governors Association meeting in Miami on Nov. 14, 2008, and “a hunting trip in Dublin, Ireland” on Nov. 16 and 17, 2008, the notice says. The expenditures listed in the 10 counts total $2,940.68.

    But I’m glad the GOP aren’t elitist…

          1. but oddly, “sorry” isn’t one of them.

            Maybe if I just read the second letter of every third word, it’ll spell “s-o-r-r-y”? Nope, doesn’t work there.

            How about in Gaelic? Ooh, not quite.

            2. You don’t really think droll’s a bigot, do you?

              For the record, I’m Irish AND short (5’7″) and I laughed at her post.

              Please answer. I’m not asking you a rhetorical question.

              1. is not really the issue. Black performers used to wear blackface too.

                For some reason I’ve decided to get really offended by this, and I will not debate this until I get an apology for my perceived slight, however trivial it may seem to you or to her or to me.

    2. The remaining 10 counts charge Mr. Sanford with using money from the Sanford for Governor Campaign fund for personal or nonofficial expenses.

      …that if Steve King lived in South Carolina, he couldn’t bill his campaign for his drycleaning?  Bummer.

  13. At least three biggies

    1) 60 votes for cloture…dems pull it off

    2) Billboard boy

    3) Repubs contract on Colorado….

    I predict the order of topics will be

    Repubs contract on colorado…..y nada mas…

    1. It was billboard boy all the way…then Wadhams and Tancredo (together again) on the contract on Colorado…not a word about the 60 votes…

      I think Wolf is concerned and also ignorant.  I think he is being exploited by right wing types who have agendas which I believe are unAmerican….I now believe that there are conspiracies designed to destroy america from within by dividing the good citizens, one against the other…..

  15. Is this why Loony Tunes Tancredo stepped aside for the Lawyer-Lobbyist?

    http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-…

    NEW YORK (WPIX) –  Ex- CNN anchor Lou Dobbs is reportedly mulling over a run for the White House in 2012.

    Dobbs hinted he’s seeking a bid to become the nation’s commander in chief during an interview with a radio station in Washington, D.C. over the weekend.

    “It’s one of the discussions that we’re having,” Dobbs said to one of the anchors of WTOP radio. “For the first time, I’m actually listening to some people about politics.”

    Dobbs whose notorious for his over the top views on immigration dropped out of the Republican party in 2006 to become an independent. During his interview, he said he was ready to do positive work for the country.

    “We’ve got to do something in this country and I think that being in the public arena means you’ve got to be part of the solution.”

    Dobbs also refuted claims that he left CNN due to poor ratings and said his abrupt departure left him “liberated.”

    “I feel liberated. I feel emancipated. I’m exhilarated,” he said. “I am looking forward to moving ahead in the public arena – journalism, public policy and public life.”

    1.    Why would Tank want to be Lou Dobbs’ understudy when he could run for Guv?  And why would he run for V.P. when he’s already got experience running for the top job?

      1. What kind of ego must Lou Dobbs have to imagine that he would in any way be a viable candidate for president?  Not that he thinks that.  But really? Lou Dobbs???

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