Fort Collins thrust into debate over Pelosi's swastika claims

plenty of swastikas to go around

from today in Denver

And here are the tea-baggers meeting their lobbyist overlords at the end of the rally

More at Squarestate

Drinking Liberally in a SquareState

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by: johne @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 01:52:57 AM UTC

Crazed AARP members dare to question

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by: Libertad @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 07:56:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Psst...

...the suit is a congressional aide.

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by: divad @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 15:21:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

no nazi swastikas here

I'm afraid you are all mistaken -- these protestors aren't waving Nazi swastikas around, they are actually waving around a traditional system to buddhism and hinduism.  The difference is in the angle.

Maybe it's a precurser to the next birther theory that Obama was not born in Kenya, but rather India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

Ok probably not -- I'm guessing they just don't know anything about the symbol...just as they can't actually define socialism, communism, or fascism.

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by: Nomadic Politico @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 02:53:56 AM UTC

Can I just say

I hope health insurance reform includes more for mental health care. These lunatics need it.

It's as if Rush Limbaugh has been tea-bagging the ditto heads and minute men... of right, he does that daily and they're too dumb to know it.

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole

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by: Go Blue @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 03:01:44 AM UTC

Victim politics...

...this is victim-politics on the part of Democrats - the "Whoa is me..." type of argument - this kind of argument never works in the arena of American debate and it shows their desperation over the issue

Regarding the use of swatiskas in the referenced pictures - the protestors are offering the swatiska as a symbol of Machiavellian government that collects enormous taxes, under the guise of care-taking, but thus, proceeds to oppress civil liberties and indenture every citizen into governmental servitude

I do not see it as a sign of racism towards President Obama - rather, I would accuse the good Speaker Pelosi and other Democrats of launching ad-hominem attacks at protestors

TABOR4LIFE

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by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 06:27:43 AM UTC

"Whoa is me..."

You're hilarious, Ali, if nothing else.

No, there's nothing racist about a swastika.

And you're right, indenturing every citizen into governmental servitude is exactly what current health care reform will do -- the same as it would have when Nixon worked out pretty much the same details, and the same as when Truman did it and fell short.

Gotta point out that creeping fascism at every turn, or next thing you know, we'll have a rabid plutocracy blustering us into foreign wars for no good reason other than to win the next election, accomplish the most massive redistribution of wealth to the upper class in history, and cloak a taste for torture as patriotism. Wouldn't want that to happen.

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by: RedGreen @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 10:52:28 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

You're nuts too

Sorry friend, but defending radicals is unacceptable. This level of hatred on display is unacceptable. These people are unhinged, bigoted, and worse... dangerous. Issuing death threats to members of Congress is what Timothy McVeigh did.  

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole

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by: Go Blue @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 12:10:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

death threats

I'm not defending death threats - I'm speaking to the referenced photos, in which, I find no racism

TABOR4LIFE

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by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 12:29:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You're defending organized unacy and unhinged rhetoric

But whatever.....

And it's definitely not an insult to the millions of Americans who worked to defeat fascism to have the historical impact of totalitarianism cheaply and opportunistically appropriated to serve the agenda of the Big Insurance industry.

Among other technical terms, it's also known as a fallacy of irrelevance, and only nitwits use it because they lack the ability to debate.  

"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." - Nietzsche  

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by: twas brillig @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 14:55:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

dramaqueening

Sorry guys - but this is the height of dramaqueening

My own signs were vandalized with swatiskas in HD56, and I'm a Conservative/Republican -

http://www.vaildaily.com/artic...

In the end, we ended up outpacing the McCain and Schaffer campaigns in almost every precinct of HD56, including the Republican ones - the vandalized sign above is also included with the racist mailers that Accountability For Colorado (a 527 that sympathizes with Democrats) sent out against our campaign

The idea that Conservatives/Republicans have a monopoly over tactics that employ the "fallacy of irrelevance" is completely inaccurate - Democrats make a great amount of racist and slanderous arguments

That said - is the swatiska good to use, in arguing against President Obama's healthcare bill? Probably not

However, the entire push to place focus behind this swatiska argument is an effort by the Democratic Party to victimize themselves so that the American people are diverted from debating how terrible Obama's healthcare bill is, further reducing its chances of passing, and instead focused upon 'feeling sorry' for a bunch of dramaqueens in Congress

That's what the Democratic Party has reduced itself to - an attempt to pass a terrible healthcare bill using tactics of victimization

The proof is here on ColoradoPols, itself - I've seen more editorial posts here about Democrats dramaqueening, rather than a real editorial that argues the merits of the healthcare bill, footnoting exact passages from it

This healthcare bill is going down - and Thank God for that

TABOR4LIFE

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by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 01:52:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

argues the merits of the healthcare bill, footnoting exact passages

You're confusing Colorado Pols with a policy blog.

That said, I haven't noticed any of your posts footnoting the bills either (you do realize there are different bills going on, right?) -- just a clockwork regurgitation of the day's talking points to defend the thugs, equivocate about swastikas and now play the patronizing victimization card.

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by: RedGreen @ Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 02:02:48 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

You go first, hotshot

You're all talk, RedGreen, just like your anonymous handle

You defend one part of the healthcare bill with a footnote - I promise to respond with 3 footnotes of criticism, that I already have lined up - but you go first

TABOR4LIFE

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by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 07:54:42 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

RG is anonymous

because of his job, and who he is. But don't think that because he's anonymous he has any less of a right to participate on this blog than you.

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by: redstateblues @ Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 16:44:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

yes, but...

...he can still defend the healthcare bill with footnotes

Much easier to speak without fact when your handle is anonymous

TABOR4LIFE

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by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Sun Aug 09, 2009 at 07:50:01 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

and btw

I'm not playing the patronizing victim card - you guys are

Second - ColoradoPols isn't a policy blog??? Then what is it? I thought we debate politics here?

True though - there is a difference between debating policy and dramaqueening....

TABOR4LIFE

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by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 07:55:46 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

"Dramaqueening" from an attention whore?

Color me unimpressed.

You defend a fallacy, and then whip out a bunch of other fallacies to rationalize it. When did I say, "Only Republicans do this." Didn't. So don't make shit up. You're the one rationalizing wingnuttery, and it's a dumbass thing to stand up for.

Further, it would show political maturity for you to acknowledge that employing swastikas and the like in a political debate is the heighth of irrationality--analogizing a health care plan that increases access for tens of millions of uninsured Americans to the Holocaust is...not smart.

So instead, your rolling out the sad old trope of "Democrats do it too" only serves to (a) unintentionally agree that it is stupid, and (b) employ another classic informal fallacy, the adhominem tu quoque.

And many here have taken the trouble to actually read Machiavelli, so please leave him out of it before you embarrass yourself further.  

"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." - Nietzsche  

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by: twas brillig @ Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 14:59:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Still no footnotes....

TABOR4LIFE

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by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 15:44:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What?

Losing track of the point?  

"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." - Nietzsche  

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by: twas brillig @ Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 16:33:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

My point...

...from the beginning has been that Democrats will continue to dramaqueen about swatiskas, more so than actually defend aspects of the healthcare bill while footnoting their points

Honestly twas brillig - have you read the healthcare bill? Or have you read more media about swatiskas?

That's been my point from the start - I'm not the one losing "track" of that

TABOR4LIFE

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by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Sun Aug 09, 2009 at 07:51:16 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's "Woe is me..."

and for the record, Machiavelli was a "republican" who opposed the Medici plutocracy in  Florence in the name of classical virtue and liberty. For this, he was dropped on his head from 6 ft several times in 1512 before being exiled to write the Prince in bitter irony.  

He SHOULD be your hero, not your enemy.  But it's a sign of how absolutely pathetic this debate has come, that people will throw anything around to achieve their ends.  (Hmmm, reminds me of something about the ends justifying the means...)

"History is'a made at night! Character is what you are in the dark!"  Lord John Worfin

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by: Meiner49er @ Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 00:58:01 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

reference

You can consider my reply to be above

TABOR4LIFE

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by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Sat Aug 08, 2009 at 01:52:40 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Swastika Mama?

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by: Canines @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 13:03:05 PM UTC

I love that woman on the right....

....Tell me she isn't on Medicare, herself.  And her parents!

AND that they don't get to choose their doctors and get great care.

Righties: Believing anything their overlords tell them to regardless of experience.  

"Politics determines who has the power, not who has the truth." Paul Krugman, 9/2010

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by: parsingreality @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 13:25:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

More of the same

....Tell me she isn't on Medicare, herself.  And her parents!

This is more of the same garbage, just as we have seen from the pro-Obamacare people:  ridiculing or other ad hominem attack against someone you disagree with, rather than a substantive argument.

So what if she is on Medicare?  That's not optional.  Does no one over 65 have the right to protest?  And, whether she is or not, isn't it reasonable for her to be concerned by Medicare's $36T actual deficit, or the projected exhaustion of the hospital insurance trust fund in 2017?  As far as choice, perhaps she's one of the 29 percent of seniors who have had problems finding a primary care physician who accepts Medicare...

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by: BldrGuy @ Mon Aug 10, 2009 at 23:51:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]