Wednesday Open Thread

Sanity brings pain
but madness is a vile thing.


55 Community Comments, Facebook Comments

  1. Conserv. Head Banger says:

    Seen earlier this week on another message board………..

    Trump supporters are like Christmas lights. They all hang together; most don't work; and those that do work aren't very bright.

    • Duke Cox says:

      That's pretty funny, CHB, but not entirely true.

      As I have related here before, I am a general contractor and have worked from Boston to Dallas, Fayetteville to Denver, and I have met a lot of working stiffs who fell for Trumps' bullshit because the well-connected power brokers and installed leaders who tell Republicans how to think, told them to do so.

      The Republican party, the evangelical corporate combine, the military/industrial complex, the right wing media, the Chamber of Commerce….all the places where billionaires spend their time pulling strings and making money. All of those institutions and the people who run them have spent billions of dollars and many years creating a "liberal" boogeyman.

      Pat Robertson, Newt Gingrich, Frank Luntz, Grover Norquist, Karl Rove….the list of unscrupulous "architects" is long. These are the people who helped set up the misinformed pubic that bought Trumps' line of fascism as somehow necessary to restore the US to some place where it never actually was.

      The funny part is, it is the Republican party, and its supply side economics bullshit, who has put all those poor, under-educated, working stiffs in a financial bind anyway. Remember…"Obamacare" was "GingrichCare" from the outset and many of us were furious with the ease he (Obama) displayed in abandoning a public option. Some clown on here the other day held Obama up as a liberal icon. Hardly…quite the opposite.

      So…I have a piece of advice for two of our three stooges.

      Rethink your affiliations, fellas. Joe Scarborough is giving up on the Republican party. You may like him (I'm not a fan) or not….but he can read the writing on the wall….can you see it Fluffy?..PP?…it says…"Trump stinks"…..

      Maybe you need to move upwind.

  2. Gilpin Guy says:

    I wonder if the caterpillar experiences pain when it goes through the transformation to become a butterfly and breaks out of it's chrysalis.  Insanity to a caterpillar would be to stay inside it's cocoon and never break through into the world that awaits.

    When I had all my setbacks with my hip replacement, I thought of suffering as a transitional state of being.  Pain is the body's way of telling you that something is wrong.  Ignore the pain and the problem persists.  That's madness and it never ends well.

    • Andrew Carnegie says:


      Depends on the type of pain.

      Some types of pain do go away with a change of behavior and are transitional.

      I suspect a hip issue which needs replacement is not that type of pain.

      Pain caused by a sprained ankle or sore back generally get better with rest.

      • Gilpin Guy says:

        I agree with you Andrew that there is such a thing as healthy pain.  I think of it as muscle soreness and the end result is that the body gets stronger once the little muscle tears have healed.

        There is also the healthy pain of feeling hungry when you are trying to lose weight.  Your body is telling you that you need to eat but if you ignore the discomfort and show some discipline, fat will be used instead to fuel the muscles leading to a leaner physique.

        The trick is to be able to distinguish healthy pain from problematic pain.

      • Gilpin Guy says:

        Then there is the problem of pain avoidance which is the root of our Opioid epidemic.  It is madness and a vile thing to be so desperate to avoid pain that you die from the overuse of the medication.  Is there really pain that needs to be addressed or is the medication being used because of unresolved social issues.  Opioid deaths are prevalent in small towns that are rotting away with little potential for young people.  Does the pain of leaving such places for a mediocre life in the big cities prompt use of a narcotic that is a killer?  How do you deal with the pain of dislocation and loss of identity?  This is a complex social pain that has consequences to our culture.

        • Duke Cox says:

          because of unresolved social issues. 

          Thanks for bringing our Librarian back to the issue at hand.

          Pretending to be a real person and engaging you in a dispassionate discussion about pain is just another deflection method used by pernicious traitors and Russian spies. But, I see you are hip to that.

          Andrei is always trying to get us to forget who he is. 

        • Andrew Carnegie says:


          I have never been into drugs, at least post-college and excluding moderate periodic alcohol consumption.  I sense that some opioid addition starts with physical pain, but a lot does not.  Opioids are very addicting.  People killing themselves with opioids because they fear they may have to move to the big city to find a job, need to grow a pair.  That lot has been the lot of much of society since at least the industrial revolution.

          • Gilpin Guy says:

            I guess throwing it all back on the individual is one solution.  Finding ways to revive rural communities is another route to a solution.  How do complex economies deal with the dark side of capitalism without destroying the soul of the individual.  There was an interesting movie with Jeff Bridges called "Hell or High Water" that I thought touched on the things that hopeless people will do to survive.  It is society's problem when the marginalized stop playing by the rules and turn to destructive ways to deal with the pain.  Telling rural Trump voters to pull themselves up by their bootstraps isn't really addressing the inequalities in our society and the dislocation caused by competitive changes in our economy.

            • mamajama55 says:

              Food for thought, GG.

            • Andrew Carnegie says:


              Agree it is society's problem when marginalized people stop playing by the rules and turn to destructive ways to deal with pain.  It is also an individual's problem.  

              The trick I think is to address the issue in a way that makes sense to both.  One of the ways we have failed to do that is in how we deal with housing.  Many traditional subsidized housing programs exclude people with addiction issues, largely on a moral basis.  The consequence of that to society is those folks become super utilizers of our subsidized health care system which costs far more than subsidizing their housing.  I would think on the society side, utilizing the least expensive solution would make more sense, regardless of one's moral perspective.

              • Duke Cox says:

                Many traditional subsidized housing programs exclude people with addiction issues, largely on a moral basis.  The consequence of that to society is those folks become super utilizers of our subsidized health care system which costs far more than subsidizing their housing. 

                This sounds like so much bullshit. Care to provide some information to substantiate your claim? How about some numbers to back up your indictment of public housing?


                • Andrew Carnegie says:


                  If you do some reading on public housing issues, temporary housing providers like the Salvation Army and other faith-based providers often exclude services for alcoholics and drug addiction.  There is a movement called "housing first" that provides housing for people that have those issues.  

                  If you want to learn about the intersection of housing policy and public health you might start by reading this about Jeff Brenner who is one of the thought leaders in the space.

                  • Duke Cox says:

                    The article you provided does not mention the word "addict" or "addiction". It is about something else entirely ( I read the whole thing).

                    Your claims are specious. 


                    • Andrew Carnegie says:


                      My claims are not specious.  Your lack of education requires me to start further back to help you.

                      Let me start you off with some basics.  Try this:


                      The point of housing first is:

                      " Everyone is “housing ready.” Sobriety, compliance in treatment, or even criminal histories are not necessary to succeed in housing. Rather, homelessness programs and housing providers must be “consumer ready.”


                    • Duke Cox says:

                      Listen, Dillweed.

                      I do not have any interest in reading your primer on housing. You claimed that housing providers refusal to allow addicts was a big problem. As yet you have submitted two items designed to deflect the question and not answer it.. Show me something that specifically backs up your claim, or stop trying to sound like a professional social worker. You are not an expert on anything but hatred and racism.

                      You are a fucking Russian troll. Nothing more.

        • notaskinnycook says:

          Actually, G.G., the real root of the opioid epidemic is here:

          Doctors were under medicating even surgical and cancer pain and they got sued for it, but the stuff is highly addictive and a lot of people have trouble getting back off of it. 

          • Gilpin Guy says:

            Talk about swings in medicine.  That article goes back to 2001.  Thanks for the research skinny.  Probably back then the pain meds weren't as powerful as they are today.  Drug companies probably also share some of the blame for promoting an "easy" solution to pain management.  Whatever the genesis, the results have tragic.  I read of a county in Ohio that had to rent refrigerated trucks to hold the overflow from the morgue.

          • mamajama55 says:

            What I hear about  in my community are stories of people getting pain prescriptions for on-the-job injuries and back pain from stress. Veterans with war wounds – accident survivors – the remedy in any case is "Take the magic pill!"

            Prescriptions are cheap (to manufacture, not to buy) and easy to prescribe.  Real recovery takes work and developing new habits and maybe changing jobs or speaking up or changing  life situations.  You can't just medicate yourself out of powerlessness.

            But doctors and hospitals usually can't make the patient heal their life – they can only provide the magic pill.


            • notaskinnycook says:

              The same is true in psychiatry, MJ, and a fair chunk of the blame there rests with insurance companies. It's cheaper to medicate mental illness than to pay a therapist for months or years of talk therapy. I don't know if the same is true of medicine but in addition to being sued for under medicating acute pain, it may be cheaper to medicate chronic pain than to pay for ongoing physical therapy that might actually correct the source of the pain.

  3. Voyageur says:

    And now for some real news:

    Trump Stinks!

  4. MichaelBowman says:

    #ProsperityJesus, TAKE THE WHEEL!! 

    "We similarly prayed for President Obama but it's different with President Trump," Moore said. "When we are praying for President Trump, we are praying within the context of a real relationship, of true friendship."

    What the actual pf*ck?

  5. mamajama55 says:

    OK House, Senate seats flip from red to blue.

    Remember Senator Ralph Shortey, the hypocritical GOP "family values" pedophile who got caught  with a live boy in a motel?

    And Dan Kirby, OK rep who resigned under accusations of sexual harassment?

    Two good solid Democrats, an immigration lawyer, (Brooks-Jimenez)  and Karen Gaddis will represent those districts. The special election was held yesterday.

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