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August 06, 2005 08:00 AM UTC

Two Dozen People for C&D

  • 54 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

This just in: roughly 25 people showed up at the Auraria Campus flagpole this morning for the Yes on C&D campaign’s march to the state capitol.

Taking a cue from the Be The Change folks, Yes on C&D had predicted a huge turnout for the event. Unfortunately for them, Jon Caldara appears to have successfully upstaged their rally with more protesters, better signs, and a life-size Trojan horse.

The by-now normal Dem advance disasters are rumored to conceal larger rifts emerging on the left side of the C&D campaign: unions in particular are upset that much of the printing work for Yes on C&D went to non-union print houses.

It’s tough to imagine Bill Owens or Bruce Benson getting worked up over non-union print work, but that’s the rub of a “bipartisan coalition.” Either way, they’d better find some realistic staffers, stabilize their own baseand get to selling undecided moderatesbefore the Independence Institute runs away with their momentum.

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54 thoughts on “Two Dozen People for C&D”

  1. This has to be the worst post I’ve ever read on Pols. 

    Just because John Caldara or Brad Jones writes you guys an email does not make it true.

    I was there myself for the entire event.  Sure, twenty five people gathered at the flagpole, but the group grew to around 100 by the time they got to the Capitol.

    As for unions, eight members of the Denver Metro Fire Department came out.  I saw some AFL-CIO members too.

    There were EXACTLY FIVE No protesters.  The horse drove by ONCE.  I would hardly call that upstaging.

    The big question is why there was NO PRESS at the event.  Did Republican communications director Katy Atkinson intentionally choose not to call them?  Or did the timing of the rally (Saturday morning!?) mean that members of all the Denver. media were sleeping off their hangovers.

    Either way, Pols should no better.  100-5 is not being upstaged.

  3. Jane is completely correct.  I was there as well and there were about 100 for the campaign (not a shabby number for a Saturday morning on a college commuter campus) and about 5 protesters.  That is in no way being upstaged with “more protesters, better signs, and a life-size Trojan horse.”  The last time I counted, 100 to 5 is in no way being upstaged.

    This post is wrong and should be corrected.

  4. Wow,
    Kinda shows you the level “dedicated support” for C&D when only 100 people show up.

    There may be some truth to the adage that “Colorado people don’t care about politcs until after Labor Day”, though at this point, I don’t see how difficult it will be to defeat C&D if they can’t amass very much “activist” suipport.

  5. Jane, Todd,

    Pols is just trying to whip up the liberal base. Its a campaign, don’t get upset. Their goal is to energize greater turnout for your side. Let em do their job.

    No on c.

  6. No Keith, Pols job is to report the facts.  If 25 people showed up for the rally that’s fine.  That’s just not the case.

    I’d like to know how Alva found out his information.  More than likely, he got an e-mail and went with it.  I would have expected more from him.

  7. Moreover, the real problem here is when the “Say No Its Your Dough” folks can only amass 5 people for an anti rally.  When you make an effort to have a mass demonstration against something and you can only get five people what does that say about your grassroots support?

  8. Alva, I really like this blog but you really do owe its readers an explanation,, where did you get your information and do you stand by your source?

  9. Whatever the source, Alva’s right. Less than 100 participants + no media = no event. Might as well have stayed home and played Xbox.

    No on C

  11. So the Yes people gathered about 40 people?  Yes, I was there too and there was no way it was 100.  Besides, I’ve got to agree no press = no rally.  The really amusing thing is that the proponents called it a press conference.
    The numbers now mean nothing, the fact remains that come November people just won’t vote yes to raising taxes, despite the cries of a falling sky.

    No on C!

  14. I actually did attend the rally, as well, and despite the lack of press (which says more about apathy and poor reporting on the part of Colorado media), about 150 people did show up to hear Andrew Romanoff’s rousing and funny speech and the impassioned pleas of firefighters, nurses, students, parents, and the Colorado Springs city council.  Also a really funny song about Jon Caldera (among the better lyrics: “I don’t care about disabilities, I don’t care about parks and facilities, all I care about is twenty-five dollars for me, juuuuust me!”).  The best part about the rally for me was that students, on a Saturday morning, no less, turned out to fight the defunding of their educations and their futures.

  15. Right, party activists are contributing hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours just to keep 25$. You realize that you are saying John Andrews and others have been out on the front lines consistently just for 25$? That argument doesn’t even make sense.

    This issue is about bigger government and the fact that it, for lack of a better words, sucks. The government is inefficient and wasteful, giving it even more money doesn’t solve any problems it just gives them more money to spend on dildos et al.  Here’s an idea let’s sell the rust springs in front of the Denver Performing Arts Complex, buy a rusted car from a salvage center for 100$ and give it to the schools that the Yes people are so worried about.

    Republicans are not evil, we don’t mind helping people out, but we know that we know how to spend our money better than the government.

  17. The idea of having a rally at Auraria on a weekend (and the weekend at the end of finals) was not a well thought out plan.

    Auraria demonstrations are rarely worthwhile events, but the only way to make them work at all is to do them in the middle of the morning on a weekday when class is in session. Otherwise, there simply will not be anyone there.

    Also there was not much prep work done for this rally. I am on a lot of e-mail lists and participate in many many events and only heard of the rally the night before.

    Given the lack of planning that went into this it is probably better the press did not show. I hope the Yes folks try this again with more gusto once the fall semester gets going in a couple of weeks. The schools at Auraria are some of the best examples of where the harm will be if Ref. C does not pass.

  18. I was one of the speakers because I get so tired of right wing students trying to oust me at Metro State! I can’t even believe I am on the same side as Owens and Benson on this; especially since they tried to destroy me at Metro State! But, I believe we need more money for Higher Ed, so more professors, like myself, can raint and rave about how liberals are more educated than Republicans. DAMN THEM REPUBLICANS! I HATE THEM ALL!

  19. “You realize that you are saying John Andrews and others have been out on the front lines consistently just for 25$? That argument doesn’t even make sense.”

    “we know that we know how to spend our money better than the government.”

    which is it?

    Andrews and his cronies have made this fight what it is, what with the “No Refund For You” bumper stickers and all.

  21. I am a republican and republicans are clueless on this issue!!!

    There will be no true increase in taxes from c and d.

    I just spent some time this afternoon talking with Tom Massey (yes I know he’s evil he actually appeared with Romanoff and helped write the referendums) and the bottom line is the scare tactics and sky falling rhetoric is coming from the “no on c and d” folks.  there’s no tax hike and if anyone bothered to read the friggin’ thing there could be a tax decrease.  On top of that little tidbit, we must remember that tabor is not perfect in it’s calculations and referendum C fixes that to a more acceptable and functional level.

    “on with the show this is it!!”

    If this is Republican thinking than I’m considering the reform party!!

    Darrin Coe
    Chairman HD 60 Republican Central Committee
    Canon City Mayoral Candidate

  22. Darrin,

    Please explain to us the need for voter approval if C is not asking for the transfer of ownership of money from the taxpayer to the state.

    Good luck with your reading and reform.

  23. You can debate the merits of this thing all you want.  But it is a fact that so far the Yes on C&D campaign is very poorly organized and run.

    The only thing they have is money – let’s hope it’s enough to get these things passed.

  24. The only thing they have is money – let’s hope it’s enough to get these things passed.

    Didn’t work for MoveOn and the other Soros fronts.

  25. Observations:

    Katy Atkinson, while joining the masses of less-than-impressive local politicos stalling until Romanoff decided to show up, made a plea to not be called a RINO – “I was the youngest delegate for Reagan”, yes, and that’s your response every time anybody ever challenges her street cred on C and D.  Time for a new tune.

    There was zero press at the event.  Which is not surprising, given the uneventful nature of the whole thing.  Marches around downtown are usually left to gangbangers after the clubs close, not tax-hikers.

    How would Jon Caldara have dropped the email; he wasn’t there?  Lefties are mad at the post because it reflected the truth.  So there were two dozen people there, it doesn’t matter if there aren’t any cameras.

  26. Quick question…Understanding that Perlmutter is a big supporter of the referendums, was he at the rally?  Aside from the fact that it’s not a federal question, if he has “thrown down” on this issue, one would expect him to try to make hay with it. Didn’t these stories happen on the same day (i.e. the Perlmutter chalenge and the rally)?

  27. The pro C and D campaign is pathetic, just like “bipartisan efforts” always are. Owens and Romanoff will get to take all the credit for the loss this November: They wrote the plan, put together the campaign and saw its demise. What a bunch of losers.

  28. Calling the pro side of C and D pathetic is true, but lets be honest and also admit that the opposition hasn’t exactly been stellar either. From my observations and from speaking with many of the people who are (or should be involved) in the Yes on C and D campaign, too much control is being cast over a message that isn’t getting out.

  30. Amazing how negative Lebowski, Keith and Trep are..are they in the arena?  Have they gotten off their butts and done anything to help C and D pass, other than to whine?  The Republicans and Democrats who are working together for C and D aren’t perfect but at least they are working hard to save this state from a looming budget disaster,though obviously it is easier to post on this blog and criticize as “losers” those who actually give a damn.

  31. Keith is not going to get off his butt to help C pass.
    I am not whinning. I am actually quite pleased with the efforts of the Independence Institute. No to dildos, no to C!

    No big woop though, if the voters want a tax increase, so be it. Thats the beauty of TABOR.

  32. I am disappointed that Alva did not answer where he got his information from or make an effort to correct the post.  100 people is a lot different than 25 and a well-organized counter-rally that only had 5 people is impossible.  I continue to ask where he got his information. 

    C & D is NOT a tax increase.  Taxes will remain the same after it passes, the state will just no longer refund money.  The No people need to stop twisting the facts.

    Lebowski, Keith, and others who are so amazingly negative, why don’t you try to debate the issue instead of resorting to calling the other side losers?  It isn’t effective debating and is rather petty.

    And, Lebowski, Keith, and other

  33. Hey Keith – a friendly reminder about our bet that  blogicus maximus reminded me of.

    –

    What I would like to see is someone start a futures market on C and D. That way we could put our money where our mouths are.

    Posted by: blogicus maximus at August 4, 2005 07:56 PM

    —

    blogicus maximus: You are little late on that one,

    Keith and I have already made a bet. (I haven’t seen Keith lately, I wonder where he went.)

    If Ref C and D wins he is going to give 100 dollars to the MS society and if Ref C and D loses I am going to give 100 dollars to Freedom Service Dogs.

    —

    The MS society sure is going to enjoy that donation.  I say you other pundits join in the fun.

  34. Todd,

    C asks for the taxpayers to transfer ownership of their money to the state. C’s purpose is to redistribute money that the state does not currently own. Tax increases must get voter approval and C is on the ballot for that approval. Its simple. If it wasn’t a tax increase, it wouldn’t be on the ballot. I’m not negative bubba, I’m cheerful and I’m going to vote no on C. Where you he in ’92? Did you vote for TABOR?

  35. woops….were you here in ’92…..

    How can “taxes remain the same after it passes, the state will just no longer refund money”. I think you mean that the rate of withholding will remain the same. Once the state takes ownership of the refunds…you have a tax increase. Read TABOR, you’ll understand that C wouldn’t be on the ballot if it wasn’t a tax increase.

  37. When you lose or are in the process of losing (as Owens, Romanoff and the pro C and D campaign are), you are, by definition, a loser. Look it up.

  38. You’re wrong Lebowski.  First, polling doesn’t show that Ref C and D is losing.  It shows a close race that could go either way.  Second, when the opposition can only muster five people for a counter rally, that shows that they’re having more difficulty in the early stages of the campaign than the C and D folks are.  Third, I don’t think that a 100 people for a Saturday morning rally in early August shows that anything but the C and D campaign is doing just fine.  Finally, in your post, you didn’t say that the campaign was “losing,” you called the folks behind the campaign “losers.”  That’s uncalled for and not part of a debate on the issue.  If that’s all you can resort to — and folks like you — I’m pretty confident that both initiatives will pass in November.

  39. If C and D are losing, it is because the campaign continues to fail at explaining the difference between our income tax refund and what is essentially a sales tax rebate.  It was overheard on the Jay Marvin portion of his Air America radio show that a Democrat woman was voting “no” because she had gotten a $1300 refund last year, and by no means was she going to vote to give that up.  Hello! No idividual citizen has EVER gotten a $1300 TABOR refund.  This woman was not corrected by the radio show host, nor any callers.  Until the yesonc&d folks get a clue about citizen ignorance about this REBATE the referenda are definitely going down in flames.  The NO REFUND FOR YOU! folks have framed the issue.  It’s time for the C&D campaign to tell people their Income TAX refund isn’t what they people are being asked to pitch in.

  40. I brought this up at the RFK, Jr. Be The Change event workshop, tmgt.

    Simple frame: Opponents of Ref. C&D are saying that you will lose your tax refund if C&D pass.  In reality, citizens will only forfeit their TABOR-mandated rebate, which they have not received in several years anyway.  Opponents of C&D are misleading the public when they threaten your tax refund – and that’s not they only thing they’re misleading you on…

  41. Keith,

    Please read Pheonix’s post. It explains my point more clearly than I did.  C and D are not tax increases, that’s incorrect and wrong.  C and D allow the state to keep funds that the state must refund.  People are going to be paying the SAME level of taxes after C and D pass, they just won’t get a refund check, something they haven’t gotten for a couple of years anyway.  To market C and D as a tax increase is misleading.

    I lived in Colorado when Tabor passed and I voted against it then.  I think we should have faith in representative democracy and allow our legislators to make decisions on tax increases and decreases.  That’s not the issue this election. Tabor will remiain but the problems facing our state with funding need to be addressed and passing C and D is a good way to start.

  43. Todd,
    If C passes I will experience a tax hike because the state will not refund my money that was withheld. Ownership will pass from me to the state. Sorry you’re not getting it. I am going to vote to keep my money. You can vote to give your money to the state. No big deal.

  44. Keep in mind that there is no such thing as a “rebate” to lose because of Ref C and D. TABOR doesn’t provide rebates. TABOR is just a socialist income redistribution scheme, taking money from some taxpayers and giving it back to others.

    And for everybody out there (like Keith) who keeps spouting the nonsensical “It’s my money, I can spend it better than the government,” answer me this. When was the last time you stopped by your local police or fire department and paid a police officer’s or a firefighter’s salary directly? When did you arrange for a contractor to come out and fill those potholes in your street? When did you pay your local school district’s expenses for administering CSAP tests and complying with federal mandates? When did you host a convicted criminal in your basement lockup? Until you do any of those things, just shut the hell up…

  45. tmgt,

    in fact, many people have gotten TABOR refunds well in excess of $1300. There was an individual last year who received more than $60 million on a TABOR refund.

    The median and mode of the refunds are very small, around the $25 that the Gov keeps repeating. But the average is closer to $3200 for a family of four over the next five years.

    The problem is that the refund mechanisms have been hijacked by an array of special interest giveaways. These include right-wing giveaways, like capital gains tax credits (which I assume accounted for the $60 million refund) and left-wing giveaways like the earned income tax credit (a welfare program).

    I’m not sure of the exact numbers, but there are around 15 different refund mechanisms, which are funded on a priority system. If the EITC is the highest priority, for example, than no other refund gets issued until that one has been completed. The average voter gets a sales tax refund. I’m not sure where it ranks on priority, but I’m sure it’s not in the top five.

    You can not add to $3.1 billion by counting $25 checks, not in a population of under 3 million taxpayers. Get you facts straight, for the good of the cause. “Hijacked by special interest giveaways” is a winning argument. EVen Republicans agree – Cadman introduced a bill to get rid of the various mechanisms this year. “No one ever saw a refund of $1300” is not only inaccurate, but is VERY MUCH a losing argument.

  46. Another tidbit: that one person’s refund of $60 million is big. It would have paid for two full years of the Democrats’ biggest proposal this year, a health care subsidy for small business. SB-237 would have ran $30 million annually.

  47. RadioFreeDenver,

    So liberal of you to rant a better than thou temper tantrum and then tell others not to use the same 1st admendment that you enjoy. Freak.

  48. Keith,

    I’m sorry you don’t get it.  It just isn’t a tax hike.  It is the state holding funds that would have been refunded.  Taxes stay the same, the refunds don’t come (that, might I add, haven’t been issued for four years).  It is semantics but it is misleading for the “No” people to say that it is a tax increase.  That’s just not true.

    Nice points RFD.

  50. Since there were no rebates last year, my only conclusion is that the $60 million came from a legal payout (there’s a section of TABOR that deals with legal payouts).  Darned those trial lawyers… again…  And who came up with this lousy TABOR thing that lets a lawyer get away with $60 million, anyway?

    Red Herring, away!

  51. Todd,

    See, Keith isn’t in to paying the government any money.  In fact, I wonder if he actually pays the government any money right now…  Maybe he pays so little, he deserves to see some of what our taxes have built, from the inside…

    Or maybe he’d just prefer that no-one pay, so no-one could visit those places.  Or maybe he’s not such an extremist after all, and just wants to cut out the extra fat that goes to providing mental health services, so that the mentally ill will eventually wind up in the more expensive housing facilities our tax dollars offer.

    I don’t know; I don’t understand the opponent’s side of this argument beyond a couple of narrow points of agreement.

  52. Phoenix,

    Your close. I don’t care for the government to spend more than it is now. But if the voters want to self impose a tax increase, I won’t be upset. I have an accountant to minimize that sort of thing.

  53. in fact, many people have gotten TABOR refunds well in excess of $1300. There was an individual last year who received more than $60 million on a TABOR refund.

    “facts,” that’s a lie.

    No TABOR rebates have been disbursed since 2001, to anyone.

    Perhaps you’re confusing a state income tax refund with TABOR rebates?  Gosh, I wonder why you’d do that…

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