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June 11, 2016 12:38 AM UTC

Weekend Open Thread

  • 85 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“You’ve got to be very careful if you don’t know where you are going, because you might not get there.”

–Yogi Berra

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85 thoughts on “Weekend Open Thread”

  2. I thought this might be something for ya'll to chew on over the weekend:

    Anarchists for Donald Trump—Let the Empire Burn – The Daily Beast

    It may be that a Trump presidency, as Andrew Sullivan predicts in New York Magazine, will usher in the end of the democracy, the death of the republic, the rise of the hard totalitarian state.  Given that we are already living in what Princeton political scientist Sheldon Wolin calls a soft or inverted totalitarian system, an illiberal democracy, the transformation feared by Sullivan will be welcome, clarifying, a fresh breath of honesty, in which the trappings are tossed aside and the ugly reality is revealed.  Such a revelation, as the republic degenerates into tyranny, may inspire real resistance.

    Or not.  It’s the risk of the wild card.  TRUMP!  Let the fire burn how it will.

    See, also: I’m A Bernie Sanders Supporter Who Won’t Back Hillary Clinton & Calling Me Names Won’t Change My Mind – Bustle

    2. And the sound of the loon is heard in the land.  How did that "Al Gore is a corporate whore so let's vote for Ralph Nader and elect George W. Bush " thing work out for the uber left last time? 

    3. As for your "Don't call me names" link, why bother? We've heard it all from the diehards before, we have our own spokesperson for everything dire right here in our very own mama (I don't bother with her posts or links on the subject anymore either) and, come November, the last remaining few Bernie or Busters for a Trump Presidency to bring on the End Times will be as irrelevant as the 2008 PUMAs.

       

       

      1. The Democrats are already uniting.  Obama has enthusiastically endorsed Hillary.   The leader of the Democratic Left, Elizabeth Warren, has enthusiastically endorsed Hillary and is making Trump's life hell.  The AFL-CIO will endorse Hillary Thursday.

        Yes, James Dodd will find the six fanatics who prefer Trump to Hillary on the theory that Trump will ruin America and the hard left will somehow rule those ruins.  But we don't need them and we certainly don't need James, who is not a Democrat and while he is free at giving his advice to the party he despises, he doesn't even pretend to have its interests at heart.  

        We do need Democrats of all persuasion to come together.  Duke Cox is a fine example of the left that we do need.   Whatever reasonable accommodation it takes to bring him and his like abroad, do it.  He has earned our respect and we should work hard to earn his.

        Even M.j. has already said she will vote for Hillary, and help register new voters so we can carry this stage for Hillary, re-elect Michael Bennet and win both houses of the legislature..  People like her in other districts can help elect Morgan Carol and Gail Schwartz while sending Tipton and Coffman to the ranks of K street lobbyists which is where they want to go anyway, because who can live on a measly $175,000 a year of taxpayer largesse?  

        Yes, MJ has established at least temporary residence in the fever swamps of conspiracy theory and is devoted to proving that the Associated Press conspired with Rafael Cruz to kill Kennedy on orders from Comcast, or something like that [the details are really complicated and I admit my mind started wandering when she explained the role of the Rosicrucians in all this.] .    Leave her alone and hope for natural remission her logical self or the return of school in the fall, which will provide a useful outlet for her boundless — if somewhat unfocused — energies.

        Finally there is Bernie himself.   He's less important than Warren, whose support spans the full spectrum of our party. But he is a rational man and has already pledged to fight the evil that is Trumpism.  He needs time to grieve and refresh but soon he will feel the pride in his astonishing achievement — going from nowhere to win the votes of 45 percent of the Democratic Party.  He will, as he should, cherish that legacy and will join with Hillary Clinton Barack Obama, Elizabeth Warren and millions of others to work toward our common goal of "one nation with liberty and justice for all."

         

         

         

        1. V, you arrogant gasbag,  if you want to know what I think, ask me. Don't tell me what I think, "best feminist on this site".

          You're a passive-aggressive backstabber who doesn't know how to conduct a real political debate. So you make up weak and lunatic positions for your opponents, so that you can smash them and feel like a winner. Pathetic.

          1. You are the one who seriously claims the Associated Press conspired with various and sundry evil forces by reporting the irrefutable truth, that HillaryClinton had won the support of a majority of the delegates to the Democratic convention.   When even so benign and tolerant a figure as Blue Cat puts you in the black helicopter chorus, it is a fact that you are in the black helicopter chorus.   If you ever want to come back to our planet, turn left at Jupiter.   We're the third rock from the sun.

            1. You think I'd offer a bunch of guys one broad?  No way. Five guys, five gals, that's my rule.  As for the intrasex among us, you'll have to work out your own arrangements.  I getconfused working with fractions.

      1. Well, Voyageur you are either getting very sloppy or devolving to being an out right liar. I never "attributed" "the worse the better" doctrine to anarchists. And, actually the doctrine that things have to get worse before they and get better originated with Marx' and his fondness for Hegel's historical dialectic. 

        Once again, you engage is self aggrandizement by showing how many angels you can dance on the head of a pin while the empire burns.

        1. You sure do mix your metaphors, but you did indeed cite "anarchists" in your link where the old worse is better line is cited.  And if you read the links you see it is indeed lenin citing plekhanov.  How's that trump loving thing working out for you?  Can we expect your endorsement of jill stein to fulfill your role as one of the Donald's "useful idiots" ?  And just so you know, that's another line of Lenin's.  

          1. So, you  confess to your error. I never said it. The author of the article which I merely posted for the review of the community made some obtuse reference to it.

            It is amazing how low establishment Democrats will go to try to silence any dissent regarding Hillary Clinton.

            1. It is amazing how low non Democrats will go to smear the nominee of a party they despise in their effort to ruin it in hopes of ruling the ruins.  

    7. I read the "Anarchists for Trump-let the motherfu*** burn" article. The argument against it is that it is poor people – brown, black, working class folks – who will get caught in the chaos, suffer and die. Hence, those who advocate for this to happen are those who have a safety cushion of some kind: a trust fund, wealthy Boomer parents, a leftist gig that will pay the bills. Privilege, in other words. So I'm not ready to give up on democracy just yet.

      But while I was reading that Daily Beast page, I found this:

      50 killed at Pulse Gay Club in Orlando. That happened this morning.  I wonder if the gunheads will rejoice that it was mostly gay people who were killed, that the gunman was engaged by a "good guy with a gun" (the rent-a-cop at the door who nevertheless failed to stop the guy with the bigger AR-15), or just shrug again and claim that it's all a hoax, that nobody died, that this is another Obama or Hillary conspiracy to take their guns.

      Light a candle for the deadcrying

      1. It is indeed the voice of white male privilege saying it doesn't care about any thing or any one except its own twisted power and rallying behind Trump as the ultimate expression of that white male privilege.   Not one of the nihilists quoted in that article was a woman or person of color.  Nuff said.

      2. mama, did you ever consider that democracy in the US is an illusion? It's called inverted totalitarianism.

        Consider the children who live and die in poverty because of Bill Clinton's Welfare Reform Act which Hillary Clinton endorsed.

        Consider the millions of innocents who have died and continue to die in the middle east as a result, in part, of Clinton's hawkishness both in the Senate and as Secretary of State.

        Consider the millions of Americans suffering as a result of NAFTA and other trade agreements.

        Consider the millions in prison because of Bill Clinton’s crime bill which Hillary supported.

        All of this is part to the neo-liberal agenda and supported by Hillary Clinton. I submit it is white privilege which allows many here to ignore these facts.

        1. Or it just may be that the rest of us aren't a marxist demagogue like you,  James.  What's the matter, Marcuse too dense for you?  Try Bell's cultural contradictions of Capitalism.

        2. Many on the caucus99% blog have similar opinions. I get flak on there for being a moderate working within the system, believe it or not. For myself, I subscribe to Winston Churchill's notion of Democracy:

          Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

          WINSTON CHURCHILL, speech, Nov. 11, 1947

          I also think we have to have a political strategy and an electoral strategy. The electoral strategy right now is not to lose any ground that the various Civil Rights movements have gained over the last decades. This means that we have to vote for the Democratic nominee: Hillary Clinton. 

          So as much as I agree with you about her husband Bill's policies and their effects, the political strategy is to vigorously criticize and protest those policies. We need Sanders to continue to articulate societal problems and policy solutions on inequality, the financial system, health care, and more. It's part of how we hold people's feet to the fire.

          I intend to continue to criticize HRC's corporate connections and to be vigilant about how they translate into corporate-friendly policies, which is usually what happens. I would prefer to have elected someone who is not corporate-friendly, i.e. Bernie Sanders, but it does appear that's not going to happen this time.

          HRC has gotten more specific  about her policies on most issues. We'll have to see if she abandons most of them right away, as BHO did on single payer health care and warrantless wiretapping.

          I don't know that it's white privilege which enables folks on here to ignore the POV that we might live in "inverted totalitarianism". I have no idea of people's ethnicity, unless I've met them. I've met 8 Polsters; all were white. Their opinions tend to be center-left to progressive. Not a monolithic group.

          It's more like they are dedicated journalists and Democratic, environmental and civil rights activists in their various fields, and like anyone would, they (we) are invested in showing that what they do makes a difference in the world.

  3. Frankly, I don't care who the burned out supporters vote for. At my caucus most of them had never voted Democrat and said they would only vote for bernie. Hillary will do just fine with or without them. Plus she will have Obama, Biden and Warren and other popular Dems campaigning for her around the country. If bernie is such a revolutionary, why has he accomplished nothing in his political career?

    1. Do you have a community health clnic in your neighborhood? Cause that's a law Sanders worked on. He got amendments passed to the Bush budget and to the ACA fundiing which to include $11 billion for health clinics in the law.

      Do you have a post office with union workers? Again, Sanders blocked the non-union board members that wanted to privatize postal service (ask CHB – he's still pissed about it). That Post article described Sanders as having "a passion for the prosaic".

      There's more – over 30 years in public service, he became known as the "Amendment King" – using his status as an Independent to work both sides of the aisle to get shit done – as a true public servant should.

          1. James Miller advocated privatizing the postal service DURING THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION, which ended over 27 years ago. So, maybe M.J. shouldn't be living in the past and maybe Mr. Miller has more modern thoughts? The other nominee is a lobbyist for the pay day loan industry. My question is: so what? Do those who support Sanders in this actually feel that these nominees were not thoroughly vetted by the Obama Administration, as for qualifications to serve on the Commission.

            I also have noticed that M.J. has had no response for the real life dealings within the postal service, as in trying to fire employees who deal drugs on company time and the unions prevent such discipline. Nothing personal, but maybe one should obtain relevant facts before blindly supporting a politician. 

            For me, the main thrust of M.J.'s link is that Senator Sanders has no active role on any congressional committee overseeing the postal service. I'll reply that Senator Carper (D-DE) is far more qualified to help resolve postal service issues and is actually doing so with introduced legislation. A visit to Senator Carper's web site will confirm that. All Bernie is doing is obstructing things. Am I pissed about Sanders’ obstructionism, as alleged by M.J. No, not really. Because, one way or another, those positions will be filled and at least one vacancy has a hearing planned, from what I’ve read.  

            1. From Mr. Miller's 2012 confirmation hearing.

              Mr. Miller. I think it would be best for the world, for the economy, and for the American people if the Postal Service was demonopolized and privatized [emphasis mine], which is a position that I held when I worked for President Reagan and that is based on years of experience at the Postal Service that enlightened me to various things and problems, etc. It would not be easy to transition. In fact, right now, it would be impossible to transition. But having said that, I detect no interest whatsoever on the Hill to make such a move, and I have expended no personal resources trying to persuade people of that view. Senator, I am going to be honest and straightforward with you and all the other Members of Congress about what I see, and that is what I see.

              Senator Collins. So if I can just paraphrase what you have said, it remains your personal view that privatization ultimately would be your goal, but it is not a view that you are currently advocating because you do not see political support for it. Is that a fair assessment of what you said?

              Mr. Miller. That is fair, and the corollary of that view is that my goal has been to restore the Postal Service to financial health and to make it operate as an efficient business enterprise.

              1. "not a view that you are currently advocating…….."   His reply:  that is fair.  

                Another M.J. comment: “Do you have a post office with union workers?” Answer is yes; a business where workers get skilled labor wages for unskilled or semi-skilled work. I no longer have quick access to the US Department of Labor’s multi volume Dictionary of Occupational titles, but researched this years ago. I had an interest as my first job ever, in high school, was at the post office.

                1. You suggested he might have changed his view.  He hasn't.  He simply isn't currently pushing for a policy that, at the moment, has no political support.  That doesn't mean he wouldn't, as he has stated that he thinks it would be of significant benefit to the entire world if the post office were privatized.

            2. CHB: You keep saying postal workers can't be fired even for selling drugs on the job. I did a search for "postal workers selling drugs on the job," found several stories, and in all of them the employees were fired and charged with crimes. So, what the fuck are you talking about?

      2. The amendment king – that is a joke. Yes over 30 years in public service and this is one of his great accomplishments   https://bluenationreview.com/bernie-pushed-to-dump-nuclear-waste-on-low-income-community/. Wonder why he gets no Latino support? Or how about him flip flopping on suing gun manufactures when he found out his position wasn't popular  http://www.newsweek.com/sandy-hook-parents-bernie-sanders-gunmaker-liability-438738http://www.democraticunderground.com/110734350 You are right he has done some real shit.

        1. Yup, that 1998 attempt to dump Maine's and Vermont's nuclear waste in Sierra Blanca, TX was not one of Sanders' better moments. Ultimately, the waste was not dumped there, but in a new high tech facility in Andrews County, TX in 2012.

          To his credit, Sanders has kept monitoring Vermont's nuclear waste via his wife, Jane's position on the Texas Low Level Radioactive Waste Disposal Compact Commission.

          That is part of why the Sanders' taxes are an issue; Jane gets $4900 income a year for her work with that watchdog commission, and has for years. But of course, it is being spun as "Sanders profits from nuclear waste dump!!!!"

          Your link on the Sandy Hook gun liability is broken. I personally am more about requiring gun owners to carry insurance like car insurance than suing gun manufacturers, but it might be appropriate in certain instances – guns made for civilian use that are only useful for killing large numbers of people quickly, for example, or guns marketed for children.

          I don't remember seeing your login here before, denverco. How long have you been posting at Pols?

    2. Give a little thought to the races other than the Presidential one. Progressives running for state legislative seats, for example, need not only a broad turnout but also need to stamp out the undervote. Sometimes 10-12 percent of voters vote only in the Presidential race, NOT for their state Rep or Senator. So in many close districts the Republican wins because those voters vote rain or shine, and they vote for ignoramuses and narcissists (and for many others not fit for public office), if the candidates have an R after their name.

  6. V. & M.J. going at it again tooth and nail. Makes me glad I went out hiking today on some of Colorado's fabulous federal public lands.

    For people like State Senator Jerry Sonnenberg (R-Sterling) and State Senator Kent Lambert (R-Colorado Springs), who are trying oh so hard to take away our public lands, maybe you guys need to get out there and try to understand why conservationists, sportsmen & women; and real conservatives; are strongly opposed to your efforts. 

    1. How bad is it going to get before people accept some limitations on who can own and walk around with guns??

      Certainly a hate crime by a home-grown white terrorist would be my guess. But we'll see. I'm sad for the victims.

      1. "Certainly" ? I'm sure you know by now the conclusion you jumped to was 180 degrees from certain. Whatever happened to refraining from jumping to conclusions until the facts are known?  

        Sadly that immediate reaction, even though you all it a guess, makes you a mirror image twin of those who jump, with zero info, with"certainty" to the conclusions favored by knee jerk xenophobes, racists and bigots. It doesn't do your credibility on all your black helicopter Bernista theories much good either. It shows you as a person quick to believe what you want to believe even in the absence of established fact.

        1. The shooter was a home grown terrorist. Maybe he wasn't "white", although I'm not even sure if that refers just to skin color (he's kind of pale), or to ethnicity.  (He's Afghani).

          But hey, you got your "black helicopters = Bernistas" dig in there, so props to you. I hope you're getting out into the sunshine, as I am – can't stay in front of the computer and TV all day.

          1. For at least a day, let's drop our feuds and join in sorrow and compassion for the Orlando victims and their families.   The pain that unites us is far greater than the politics that divide us.

          2. First. You seem to be in need of sunshine too. Not that it's any of your business but after a morning out I'm in and out of the house smoking up some Q for visiting family.

            Second, I don't believe for a second you had a Muslim in mind when you jumped to the white guy guess. As for V's remark, This isn't about feuding. I'm just thoroughly disgusted with your unique combination of self righteousness and the same circular black helicopter "logic" and instant default to your personal bias that you'd make fun of coming from righties.  

            You and I both know exactly what you'd be saying now if Moderatus instantly jumped to a Muslim/Isis terrorist conclusion and it turned out to be a Christian fundamentalist white guy. And you'd be right. And the same goes for everyone including you.

            I simply posted what happened without any reference  to "the politics that divide us". You're the one who couldn't wait to do that. You're the one whose knee jerk reaction was to lay blame according to your preferred world view without knowing anything more than the bare bones.

            So I'm not going to apologize to you or V.  And you can take your snotty remarks about how you think I am or should be spending my day and shove them right up your ass.  And if V doesn't like it he can do the same. Neither one of you are in any position to lecture anyone about being divisive.

                1. That's understandable.  Sometimes we just need to wait for facts.  That Egypt Air downing for instance, I think no group has yet claimed responsibility.

                   I can't quite explain why this thing has hit me so hard.  I live in Capitol Hill with many gay friends and neighbors.  It just seems so brutal, so irrational, and simply underscores that life is in many respects a lottery.  If I was religious, I would pray for their souls.  As it is, I simply have to accept it as a horror with no justification, and no means of amelioration.

      2. Certainly a hate crime by a home-grown white terrorist would be my guess. But we'll see. I'm sad for the victims.

        The CO Springs Planned Parenthood shooting doesn't count?  Not enough bodies?  Insufficiently righteous victims?

          1. My intent is to point out that we've had such an attack with no such call for gun control. Not everyone is here to personally attack you. 

             

            1. In any case, Mama seems to be saying that since some white guy was once a "wannabe Gay Pride Shooter, that makes it OK to jump to conclusions before anything but speculation is available any time over any incident. Sounds like the Fox News approach to fact checking. 

            2. Though,Daft, considering some of  the rhetoric I have seen here very recently, one might consider forgiving mama for jumping to that conclusion…

              Mama seems to have a knack for generating rancor amongst the ROC (right of center) tribe…

               

              1. MJ is an Olympic class conclusion jumper, no doubt about that.  I simply don't see the purpose in a tragedy like this of trying to speculate on the race and religion of the perp before the facts came out.  She made a mistake.  It happens.

              2. Well I'm nowhere near right of center, Duke. I just don't think that jumping to conclusions before facts are in based on emotion and what team you're on is any better coming from the left than coming from the right. Reacting like a mirror image of Moderatus…. if it's bad the other side must be responsible, no need to wait for more info, if your side doesn't win there must be a huge conspiracy, cries of no fair whenever you don't like the result, complaints about being picked on…. does no more for liberal credibility than it does for rightie credibility.

                Serve it all up with a huge dollop of mama's signature holier than thou self righteousness on top and I don't have to be "center right" to be "riled up". And you can call me whatever you like if you disagree. You won't hear me whining about getting picked on. Ever. Those who can't take it don't have to participate.

                1. Far be it from me, my dear BC, to ever get between two contestants, both of whom are better armed than I…I didn't name names, you will note, specifically to avoid calling anyone, anything. 

                  Insofar as all of us are imperfect, I will refer back to the old suggestion, "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." Since I invariably find myself falling prey to jumping to conclusions, I am willing to cut mama a little slack…of course, I am almost always willing to do so.

                  I have enormous respect for you both and will not defend nor condemn either party, as if either of you needed my help…smiley.

                  On this, though, BC, you and I have never had the slightest disagreement.

                  Those who can't take it don't have to participate.

                  heart… carry on…….

                   

                2. BC, give it a fucking rest. Nobody knows or cares about the original comment I made anymore, "guessing" that the Orlando shooter might be white.

                  Alternatively, you could say just what the hell you want me to do:

                  1. Admit the mistake? Obviously. Done.

                  2. Say that every guess, speculation, wild-assed guess is verboten from here on out on Coloradopols? (Unless, of course, you or Vger are using your famed mentalist powers to project my innermost thoughts in your own words). Done.  I won't guess on anything ever again, unless I telegraph it in all caps: THIS IS A GUESS. THIS IS ONLY A GUESS. WE WILL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE.  Oh wait, I did do that in my original comment. But nevermind.

                  3. Go away and never come back? Not happening. I do take breaks from here, have several other personal and political and professional projects going this summer, but I'm going to keep coming around, so I guess you'll just have to put up with my "trademark self-righteousness", and I'll have to put up with your petty, vicious, and random sniping. We'll all survive.

                  If what you want me to do is not covered in 1-3 above, please do tell.

    1. Here's where his priorities most clearly part company with those of his most fanatic supporters,

      “I have got to make sure that working with all kinds of people throughout this country, we are going to have an agenda that stands up to Wall Street, that is aggressive on the issues that people who supported me feel strongly about,” he said.

      But in a sign that his sights were now more on helping the Democratic ticket than on leading it, Sanders made clear who his foe would be in the weeks and months ahead.

      “I am doing everything that I can and will continue to do everything that I can to make sure that Donald Trump does not become president of the United States,” said Sanders. “I think this man in a dozen different ways is not fit to become president. I think the idea that he is running on a campaign based on bigotry, insulting Mexicans, Muslims, and women, it’s hard to believe that that is really happening in the year 2016.” 

       

       

      1. In every campaign, the candidate builds a shoe.   Some put that shoe on and proudly announce it fits.  But the fabric of that footwear is woven at least as much from the hopes and dreams of the voter as from the candidate.   Sometimes it is hard to recast that self-image when the candidate changes course.  Obviously, the notion of being "more Catholic than the pope" is not limited to churchgoers.   Bernie is obviously transitioning to a senior statesman role and there obviously will be those, like Mr. Dodd, who will read he memo but see it as a form of betrayal.  But the reat majority of Bernie's fans will follow his lead as we did Hillary's in 08.   And while I would have preferred the first woman President in 08 and the first African American in 2016, I feel honored to have had a small role in both historic events.

          1. Lenin would introduce the new economic policy and move toward the center which is what he WAS doing when he died.  And he would see the liberation of women as a great achievement.

            1. It's always been a pretty solid rumor that Lenin was assassinated by Stalin because of that potential move towards the center.

              1. Stalin may well have been behind Lenin's death and that of Krupskaya.  Lenin, of course, had been weakened by his stroke. Stalin without a doubt killed Kirov.  Anton Antonov-Ovseyenko's "In the time of Stalin:" is a marvelous documentation of his crimes.   I will mildly dissent with you on his motive.   Koba killed to consolidate his power and, later, for the sheer joy of killing.   The NEP was not his motive.

  9. Another neocon endorses Clinton, calling her “2016’s real conservative” and “the candidate of the status quo” – Salon

    Another neocon added his name to the pro-Clinton list on Thursday. James Kirchick penned an op-ed in The Daily Beast titled “Hillary Clinton Is 2016’s Real Conservative — Not Donald Trump.”

    “Clinton is the candidate of the status quo, something that conservatives, by definition, are supposed to uphold,” Kirchick writes.

    “Hillary Clinton is the one person standing between America and the abyss,” he says, seeing her as a mealymouthed centrist candidate with “better conservative credentials” than the alternatives.

    I hope ya'll enjoy your bed fellows.

    3. Given that the alternative is Trump, it doesn't bother me that rational conservatives – and even some not-so-rational conservatives – see a more stable ("conservative" in one sense of the word) country through electing Clinton and a potential disaster in Trump. Many conservatives are willing to play the long game; Trump could set them back or even destroy them with little more then Tweets and bomb-throwing speeches.

      1. This gives me hope that the Republicans (not to be confused with the batshit crazy neocons) may actually be trying to lasso their party and drag it back to right-of-center rather than so far out that that it wraps around to the other side. She's not the president the leftists want but she may be who we need in the long view.

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