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October 30, 2008 03:33 PM UTC

Thursday Open Thread

  • 66 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

–Henry Louis Mencken

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66 thoughts on “Thursday Open Thread”

  1. The lawyer who was going to appeal to the Supreme Court has literally not gotten on the train yet….looks like this is moving out to sea..

    However, it provides a foil for right wing media to claim that Obama is not a US citizen, that he is a mole for the Islamic terrorists…that American is facing a coup……all of this is nonsense….EXCEPT…McCain is going for the margins..the undecided and uninformed…..anything little thing can tip the balance in a close election…

    1. then senator Obama is in big trouble either way.  As, by the way, is the country.

      There will always be another crazy accusation to replace the last.

      1. The merits don’t matter. Of course, that is a valid birth certificate.  What it looks like is that the Supreme Court is not going to get involved; which is to the good.

        What does matter is that a lie is being told, hell, many lies are being told about Obama’s citizenship status.  The lies are being told on the public airwaves and the broadcasts reach more people than broadcasts which refute the lie.

        The government controls the broadcast media by giving licenses to certain entities, who then can choose what they want to broadcast.  It is not against the law to lie on the public airwaves; nor is there any recourse unless the lie is a personal slander.  

        So, some people are going to vote for McCain because they have been persuaded by this lie.  Everyone gets one vote, at least in theory.  If PR, and redstateblues and colorado67 all base their votes on objective facts, their votes don’t count one damm bit more than the ignorant fools who are persuaded by the lie.  That is the point. One person one vote. One fact one vote. One lie one vote.

        There is no effective way to stop the lie.  It will go out, in Colorado, a swing state..with a close election, all over the state from now to election day on airwaves owned by people who “target a conservative market” and who hire talk show hosts who support McCain.

        Goebbels said the secret to winning with a lie is to repeat it enough times and people will believe it is the truth.

        We will have to wait to see what happens.  

        Pay attention. And, for god’s sake, no more posting about it is no big deal.  Hear me well. DEAL.

        2. People will vote against senator Obama based on lies.  People will vote against senator McCain based on lies.  People will vote against senator Obama based on race, and people will vote against senator McCain based on age.  

          All told, as Uncle Winston was fond of saying, leaving the decisions up to such people is about the worst system imaginable, except for any other method that’s been tried.

        3. None of these lies are impacting any more.  They’ve beaten them to death so much they’re falling on deaf ears.  It’s not just me saying this, it’s the polls.

          Goebbels had one big advantage over the Republican smear machine of today – he didn’t have an opposition capable of countering all the lies.  Obama, the Democratic Party, and all of the unaffiliated groups on “our” side have done an excellent job of attacking the credentials of these fear-mongers and showing the ridiculous nature of the lies they’re peddling; the people are skeptical of attacks, and the stability of the polls is showing that.

          1. Above I wasn’t trying to downplay the effect of widespread lies, but I agree that the debunking of this particular falsehood is so widespread that the people who vote based on it are an inevitable byproduct of democracy.  

          2. In the past, the lie was met with indignation by the opposition, but little more (for example, Al Gore invented the internet).

            Now, when a discredited lie gets repeated again and again, the story soon turns to the integrity of the person telling the lie (for example, the bridge to nowhere).

            When the story turns from the lie to the teller of the lie, I think the teller suffers more. The lie is defanged and the press starts to question everything you say, whether it’s an attack or a boast.

        4. I was just saying it’s a silly attack. I actually had to tell my wife’s boss yesterday about this. He was seriously wondering if Obama was a native-born citizen.

          The people espousing this are some of the same people who thought Hillary killed Vince Foster. They will believe anything, say anything, no matter how vile, to bring down the people with whom they disagree.

          The only problem is that with the 1st Amendment, the only thing you could do to Berg or others would be to file a lawsuit.

          It’s a dirty trick that some political entities use the right wing media to spoon-feed lies to the public, but that’s politics. More incentive to get as many people out to the polls as possible to vote–counteract the nutjob factor/bradley effect/double reverse racism times nine.

          1. Many of the people hearing this an believing it are probably already disinclined to vote for Obama because they’ve been plugged into these smears for so long.  They might be persuadable voters, as RSB’s wife’s boss might be, but we can’t be around to counter every single lie to every single person; chances are, if RSB debunked this one, the boss is still questioning Obama because of any number of other lies he’s heard.  (Unless RSB or his wife are really on top of things… 🙂

            Politics like this suck, IMHO, but there isn’t much to be done about it without violating the 1st Amendment, as RSB so accurately notes.  Educating voters on critical thinking is all we can do, and that’s a seriously long-term project.

            1. the only people who will believe this birth certificate crap are people who want to believe it and weren’t ever going to vote for Obama anyway.  

              While there are certainly millions of people who aren’t supporting him for perfectly valid reasons there are others who would rather say they are against him because he’s a Muslim, a foreigner, a terrorist mole or whatever than say they hate the idea of a Black guy being president. This kind of crap is for them.

          2. That is the point.  Thank you for your reasoned comments.

            However, I would have no “standing” to sue anyone.  The First Amendment is absolute, except for slander and libel, or making some inflammatory statements in airports and airplanes.

            I have not been slandered or libeled.  Perhaps Obama has…but, there is wide latitude to attack a public figure….

            However, guarding against that remote possibility, boyles on his talk show, has been carefully taught, he provides the stage and the microphone but is extraordinarily careful to say he doesn’t know the truth, it is just a story….he doesn’t have a clue….etc.etc.etc….he lets his guests and callers do the lies….

            You are absolutely right about the political remedy..GOTV.. and  I intend to help out…ran the walker through the car wash and got out the flag…checked to make sure it was fifty stars and not still 48…..and I am all set for the last effort….old farts for ole Obama…

    4. From the small but vocal right-wing fringe, here is what we will be hearing for the next four years:

      The radical left claimed Bush “stole” the election, when we all know it was decided fair and square by the Supreme Court.  But apparently it’s OK to elect a Kenyan who is Constitutionally unqualified to run!  The same crowd that covered up the murder of Vince Foster is covering up the truth about so-called “President” Obama.  Everything this illegal occupant of the White House does is unconstitutional.

      This will, unfortunately, be a persistent narrative throughout an Obama presidency.  Low level, believed by few, but always out there.

      1. But since they’re still fuming about Hillary’s murder of Vince Foster, that stands to reason – well, as much as the word “reason” applies to these folks, anyway.

        If that’s the worst they say about him, then he’ll be lucky.  I half expect the rabid anti-abortion and racist terrorists to come out of the woodwork soon.

  2. I’m a long-time reader of CP, but I just started posting here. I’m amazed of the depth and thoughtfulness of the people who post here, and I’m glad that the dialog tends to be a real attempt at debating the issues.

    I’m also amused and (sometimes) scared by the intensity of the responses you have for the trolls. One common attack is to point to a poster’s “time in service” on the site, and then move onto a more ernest assault on their posts.

    So, at the risk of being labeled a hobgoblin, what’s the requirements for being a “real” poster on CP? Do you have to have 6 months on the board, a set number of posts labeled +1 good by the rest of the crew, have your post responed to by Laughing Boy, what?  

    1. Actually, the major requirement is some form of rational response IMHO.  Shilling and trolling lengthens the time before you’re a “real” poster.

      Oh, and just because you’re a regular, “real” poster doesn’t mean you’re suddenly immune to commentary – look at the responses to many of Another Skeptic’s posts, or some of Sir Robin’s…  They’ve both been around a long time.

    3. Basically it’s about gaining credibility. If you write intelligent, thoughtful, insightful material (as you have, from what I’ve read) then you are likely to be welcomed no matter your political persuasion.

      If the account was created the day of the inflammatory post–less than 24 hours before posting plus lots of lies and misinformation usually means they’re a troll/shill/what have you.

      You don’t have anything to worry about though.

    5. as to whether or not you’re still a “newbie.” There’s no set rule.

      But if someone like myself can click on your handle and see that you’ve posted 48 times on a variety of subjects, over the past couple of months, I’d think that would work in your favor.

    6. As the others have put here, if the initial posts are thoughtful and hit a variety of subjects, then it takes a day or two for people to conclude that you’re for real.

      And we all lose it occasionally so you’ll see all of us accused of troll-like behavior at times. That just comes with the territory.

      In my eyes you’re real.

  3. http://www.realclearpolitics.c…

    A nod of thanks to Scott McInnis for putting some more nails in the Schaffer coffin.  Markey is winning by double digits to the only Republican who could make that seat competitive. I doubt if Markey will serve more than one term but it is sure good that she is getting rid of Musgrave

  4. http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/e…

    As funny as it is to read Republicans complaining about anything that seems to make it easier for people to vote, it’s even funnier to read the Republican comments.

    You know, the most interesting part about the Colorado story is that the number of Democrats voting versus the number of Republicans voting is statistically even.

    Now … juxtapose that information with what you are seeing in the weighting of every. single. poll.

    All of the major pollsters have modelled a statistically significant higher Democrat turnout when compared to the Republican turnout this election cycle. This weighting is why you are seeing Obama with double-digit leads. Without such weighting, Obama is not leading any of the major polls.

    Early voting patterns are not bearing out outsized Democrat turnout. Just as many Republicans are voting early as Democrats.

    This is a very interesting result, and portends a McCain victory.

    A landslide victory.

    Heh.  

    1. I can’t believe they’re complaining about early voting. Don’t they know that it’s one of the biggest reasons why they’ve won in states like Florida in the past?

      GOP voters have dominated the early voting numbers in the last two elections.

    2. Enough to add up to easily 1-2% of the vote total if I extrapolate.

      If Republicans want to delude themselves into thinking the current Dem-Rep weighting on early voting is a Good Thing, I’m okay with that.  Republicans have traditionally dominated early voting here.

    3. .

      Obama supporters,

      he’s going to win in a blow-out.

      If you don’t have a lot of time on Tuesday, your one little vote won’t be missed.  Don’t bother voting.

      McCain supporters,

      there’s no chance of him pulling it out.  If you don’t make time to go vote, it really won’t matter.

      Protest voters and 3rd party voters,

      the only way your wasted vote is even noticed is if it is actually cast.

      You folks are the only ones that need to bother to go to the polls on Tuesday.

      .  

  6. I’d say Obama now has it in the bag. From Yahoo News

    Each of the 11 shamans in a Peruvian faith-healing organization said Wednesday that they have foreseen victory in the U.S. presidential race: nine for Democrat Obama and two for his Republican rival John McCain.

    Blowing incense over a sacred llama fetus perched on a bed of coca leaves next to posters of the leading candidates, the shamans shook rattles, chanted “up, Obama, up!” and threw flowers at their images.

    “Obama is growing stronger, I’ve seen that he has the spiritual support of Martin Luther King and John F. Kennedy to protect him,” Juan Osco, president of the Apus-Inka healers association, told The Associated Press. “He’s going to win.”

  7. from ABC News

    An embattled Massachusetts state senator appeared in a federal courtroom today charged with taking $23,500 in bribes, including cash that she stuffed into her bra during a meeting at a tony Boston restaurant that was secretly videotaped by an undercover FBI agent, federal prosecutors said.

    1. Well bad news for Democrats. Power will always attract problems, but I really, really hate it when it is on my side of the aisle.

      Often it seems like the sort of corruption are things the average person would do in office. No, really, think about it. The average person engages in all sorts of daily misconduct from trying to weasel out of parking tickets to taking a few office supplies. Often it seems like it is that sort of behavior writ large. Accept some free gifts, don’t report some meals, exaggerate your expense report.

      Not this case though. This is out and out old fashioned money in a bag. Glad they finally got her though.

  8. from the Deseret News we have:

    So rather than the family-friendly, G-rated “High School Musical 3,” the beginning of the very nonfamily-friendly R-rated “Sex Drive” came on the screen. The opening minutes of the movie include nudity.

    Who knew that people in Utah watched “Sex Drive.”

  9. A friend of mine mailed his mail-in ballot to the Boulder Clerk’s office, and had it delivered back to him instead. (His address is of course on the envelope, like every mail-in ballot, with a message saying “Postmaster: do not deliver to this address.”)

    He happened to still be around to physically drop it off, but others may not be so lucky. Has anyone ever heard of this? He asked the Post Office and the Boulder Clerk’s office, and neither was especially helpful or concerned.  

  10. h/t to Daily KOS we have from the Guardian

    In a process reminiscent of the Labour party in the 1980s and the Conservatives in the late 1990s, the Republicans could end up as an extremist rump, reduced to a few stronghold states and obsessed with causes that seem not to matter to the general public.

    Across America, moderate Republicans are facing a tough battle as the Democrats look set to increase greatly their strength in Congress. Some analysts are seeing Democratic gains of up to nine Senate seats and 30 seats in the House of Representatives. In a leaked Republican party document last week, an incredible 58 House seats were ranked as potentially at risk with 11 of them virtually written off as already lost.

    If the Democrats perform strongly enough to control 60 Senate seats then they would have a virtual free rein over the political landscape. Republicans would probably survive only in their heartland, thus thrusting the party further right at a time when the country has shifted left. That would mark a profound change similar to Ronald Reagan’s win in 1980 which seemed to usher in a conservative-dominated era.

      1. That’s just great…

        The thing is, as much as Labour went “into the wilderness” in the 80’s, they came roaring back in the 90’s.  Chances are, sometime in the not too distant future, Conservatives will find themselves in a position do the same.

        Regardless of what happens next week, parties know how to reinvent themselves, ultimately successfully…

  11. Elborno said after seeing the people who were asked to leave, she was concerned that McCain’s staffers were profiling people on appearance to determine who might be a potential protester.

    “When I started talking to them, it kind of became clear that they were kind of just telling people to leave that they thought maybe would be disruptive, but based on what? Based on how they looked,” Elborno said. “It was pretty much all young people, the college demographic.”

    Elborno said even McCain supporters were among those being asked to leave.

    “I saw a couple that had been escorted out and they were confused as well, and the girl was crying, so I said ‘Why are you crying? and she said ‘I already voted for McCain, I’m a Republican, and they said we had to leave because we didn’t look right,'” Elborno said. “They were handpicking these people and they had nothing to go off of, besides the way the people looked.”

    http://www.iowastatedaily.com/…

    1. The two of them and Pena came through the press entrance while I was waiting to ask a question.  Interestingly while Pena did get a wanding, if Hickenlooper did, it was the quickest one in the world as I missed it.

      BTW, where’s libertad?  I miss him.  The folks behind 47, 49, and 54 seem to be no longer mentioning 47.  Do they know something about recent polling that I don’t?  

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