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October 24, 2008 03:18 PM UTC

Open Line Friday!

  • 78 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“They’ve got a big target on there, ATF. Don’t shoot at that, because they’ve got a vest on underneath that. Head shots, head shots…Kill the sons of bitches.”

–G. Gordon Liddy

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78 thoughts on “Open Line Friday!”

    1. Not a very minimal association like Obama’s with Ayers.  And McCain hasn’t been grilled about it or asked to denounce the piece of human garbage by any in the so-called  liberal media.

    2. I was talking about a situation in which law enforced agents comes smashing into a house, doesn’t say who they are, and their guns are out, they’re shooting, and they’re in the wrong place. This has happened time and time again. The ATF has gone in and gotten the wrong guy in the wrong place. The law is that if somebody is shooting at you, using deadly force, the mere fact that they are a law enforcement officer, if they are in the wrong, does not mean you are obliged to allow yourself to be killed so your kinfolk can have a wrongful death action. You are legally entitled to defend yourself and I was speaking of exactly those kind of situations. If you’re going to do that, you should know that they’re wearing body armor so you should use a head shot. Now all I’m doing is stating the law, but all the nuances in there got left out when the story got repeated.

      1. I love how he contradicts himself. He says that this is when the ATF agents don’t identify themselves, yet his first quote was “They’ve got a big target on there, ATF. Don’t shoot at that, because they’ve got a vest on underneath that.”

        You know what? If you can tell that they’ve got a big fat ATF logo on their jackets, you can tell that they’re ATF agents and not some punks pulling a home invasion.

        Spinner, you have no shame.

  2. That’s what Salon.com is asking today:

    http://www.salon.com/news/feat…

    Oct. 24, 2008 | NORTH MIAMI, Fla. — Sure, Ted Ravelo likes Barack Obama. But two hours is a long time to stand in line to vote, especially considering that it’s still October. “This has to be remedied,” Ravelo, 72, said Wednesday morning, shaking his head, as he gave up on voting early — at least that day — at the North Miami Public Library, where a couple of dozen voting machines and their operators were struggling in vain to keep pace with a flood of citizens. “Something has to be done.” A line stretched two blocks from the building, as other voters doggedly stood — or sat on the folding chairs many of them had brought along — for up to two hours while waiting to cast their ballots.

    If Florida were expected to go as easily for McCain as it did for George W. Bush four years ago (if not eight years ago), the issue might not matter that much. But the more people who show up to vote, the better the night is likely to be for Obama. Democrats are paying close attention. “We have a chance this year, as a nation, to go past that horrendous 48 percent of eligible voters who participate in presidential elections, with the unprecedented number of young voters, independent voters, minority voters, that are participating in this,” New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson told Salon prior to appearing at an early-vote rally for Latinos in Kissimmee, Fla., on Wednesday. He noted that he’s heard reports of rumors about voting problems among Hispanic communities in Nevada, Colorado and New Mexico as well. But, he said of expected record turnouts, “It’s very healthy for our democracy, and we should take advantage of it, not engage in negative tactics and voter suppression.”

    1. But people given the right to vote in African states and, yes, Iraq stand in line most of a day…..after walking for a day to the polling place.

      And we have the option of mail voting, early voting, and election day voting.

      Counting our blessings,

      parsingreality

        1. Yes I wish the lines were shorter. But there is also something amazing about people doing this, both how they can feel proud of themselves and we as a country can feel proud that people are putting in this effort.

          1. Most 82 year-olds physically can’t stand for that long. Congrats to BC’s friend for being so fit, but several of my 80+ friends would never have made it. That’s a problem.

            1. And this family friend IS very fit.  Also since there are so many seniors in the area they do try to have some chairs available.  But it’s still grueling and it’s a shame we are so accustomed to low voter turn out compared to other democratic nations that we are unprepared when our voters actually turn out.  

    2. ATT1889960

      Oh come on.  Admit it.  You needed a lighter moment in this way too tense countdown to election day. If we can’t laugh at ourselves,- someone else surly will.

      5. I hope everything lightens up a bit after the election. Have a good weekend.

        Is it me, or is this election cycle more stressful than the past? I’ve seen perfectly mellow people wound so tightly that they look like they could pop at any moment.

        When I’m the most laid-back person I know, that’s saying something.

  3. Name a Prez or Veep with glasses. I can’t think of one. Or even serious Prez or Veep candidates. It is obvious that uncorrected vision is a prerequisite for the job.

    2. I can’t think of any 19th Century presidents whose portraits show them wearing glasses, but I’m sure some of them must have.

      Actually, I believe the elder Bush sometime wore them too…

      Here’s a better question – name a bald president. I can think of only one modern one – Eisenhower, the hero of WW2.

  6. And it looks like she just confessed to making up her horrific mugging story.

    Yep, you guessed it. The McCain staffer just fessed up.

    Then again, other than right wing rabid frothers like Glenn Beck, was there ever any doubt for those of us with the capability to engage in rational thought? I mean, good God, the “B” carved on her face was backwards. You only carve something like that if you are looking in the mirror while doing it.

    http://kdka.com/

    1. When the Smudge Report had it as its lead story yesterday. I didn’t even need to read the article to know that it was going to be a white McCain supporter saying she was attacked by a black man.

      This lady is like a less malignant version of Susan Smith. Shame on Drudge for trying to make it into some sort of huge story. His involvement makes the whole thing stink to high heaven (read as: McCain camp in PA tells nat’l McCain camp sends it to Drudge tries to stir racial feelings in the state McCain is trying to turn red.)

        2. …are not fresh.  Bruising like that goes through a whole rainbow of colors before it gets to black.  

          However she got them, I sure hope she gets some help from professionals for her obvious mental problems.  

            1. Most insurance policies I’ve seen don’t cover psychological issues.

              I hope that’s not the case, that maybe McCain himself will pay for it. Maybe Palin could auction off her new wardrobe to help.

              1. …mandated coverage under group plans, but not individual.  People with serious mental illness don’t get approved for individual coverage and I doubt McCain offers any group coverage to volunteer staff.  

                If she’s still a qualified dependent under someone’s group coverage, it should be covered.  And depending on the policy, it could be covered under court ordered treatment.  

                If nothing else, it will be an evaluatiion by Public Health officials.

  7. This one however, is from Schiller, from Germany (close).  I love their stuff – my brother in law in Romania turned me on to them. Sorry no scantily clad Russian ladies though. Hope you like it anyway:

    1. It actually gets much worse.  She bumbles some more and then McCain sticks to Ayer’s too.  I wouldn’t thought it possible, but this is becoming more painful.

    2. Anyone who blows stuff up, or hurts/kills people to try to make a political point = a terrorist.

      If Ayers is a terrorist you’d better believe abortion clinic bombers, church arsonists, and environmentalists who burn humvees and ski lodges are terrorists too.

      1. Ayers got away with it. Is this a great country or what?

          (To answer my own question, it is a great country and one of the reasons is because Ayers got away with murderous acts because of government misconduct , cointelpro and others.  Yes, it is better to let the guilty go free than risk punishing the innocent. But it’s still hard to stomach from time to time.   As for the killers of the abortion doctors, that’s one of the reasons I support the death penalty.  Try ’em and fry ’em.)

          1. but that is mostly luck. People did die in those bombings, I remember a University of Michigan researcher named Fassnacht (sp?)  specifically. That may not have been a bombing linked to Ayer’s organization but it was a murder nonetheless. And it’s worth noting that some of Ayers fellow bombers killed themselves (somewhere, justice is smiling over that one)  

              So whether Ayers is guilty of murder or merely attempted murder, he is a vile piece of crap who has no business serving on a university faculty.

             I don’t hold him against Obama, however.

            2. “People did die in those bombings … That may not have been a bombing linked to Ayer’s organization but it was a murder nonetheless….  So whether Ayers is guilty of murder or merely attempted murder, he is a vile piece of crap….”??!?!

              Someone died in a bombing that may not have been linked to Ayers’s organization, therefore Ayers is a piece of crap?  Explain, please.

              1. People who plan and carry out bombings with reckless disregard of human life, and whose activities lead directly to the death of co-conspirators in those same bombings, who blow up themselves by their own incompetence, are guilty of attempted murder and felony murder. And are henceforce and indisputably vile pieces of human crap.

                See: Ayers, William

                1. but the Weather Underground did not “carry out bombings with reckless disregard of human life.” I’ve got no truck with their methods, but the group attempted to make sure no one was on premises. Quite the opposite of clinic bombers and other terrorists Palin refuses to label terrorists.

                  1. The Weather Underground did indeed carry out bombings with reckless disregard of human life.  The Stirling Hall death (and four serious injuries) proves the point. They didn’t “intend” to kill anybody either.  But planting bombs in places where a reasonable person could forsee that they would pose a risk to human life, as Team Ayers did, is absolutely acting with reckless disregard for human life. If I shoot at you from a passing car and miss, I’m not guilty of murder but I am guilty of attempted murder. Likewise, Ayers was involved in a conspiracy to bomb places that did lead directly to the death of several of his accomplices, when they blew themselves up.  That makes him guilty of felony murder, even though the people who died thoroughly deserved to die. But in the eyes of the law, it’s felony murder.  And encouraging naive people to make bombs that could well (and in fact did) kill the bombmakers is also reckless disregard of human life.  I got no problem calling clinic bombers terrorists…the ones who killed deserve the death penalty, the ones who didn’t kill deserve at least 25 years in prison.  It’s obviously ludicrous to try to link Obama to Ayers’ terrorist acts.  But it’s clinically accurate to call Ayers a vile piece of human crap, as are the abortion bombers. Hell, I’d throw them into the same jail cell and let them bore each other with their ideological diatribes.

                    2. Bob? Your argument sounds frighteningly similar to those who argue that those who manufacture handguns used in a murder are themselves guilty of attempted murder (or at least in aiding the commission of a felony).

                      I’m somewhat confident that you didn’t intend this, so could you explain how your argument is different?

                      Thanks.

  9. Sterling Hall is a centrally located building on the University of Wisconsin-Madison campus. The bomb, set off at 3:42AM on August 24, 1970, was intended to destroy the Army Math Research Center (AMRC) housed on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th floors of the building. It caused massive destruction to other parts of the building and nearby buildings as well. It resulted in the death of the researcher Robert Fassnacht, injured four others and caused significant destruction to the physics department and its experiments. Neither Fassnacht nor the physics department itself were involved with or employed by the Army Math Research Center. The bombers used a stolen Ford Econoline van filled with close to 2,000 pounds of ANFO (i.e., ammonium nitrate and fuel oil).[1] Pieces of the van were found on top of an eight-story building three blocks away and 26 nearby buildings were also damaged; however, the targeted AMRC was scarcely damaged.[2] Total damage to University of Wisconsin-Madison property was over $2.1 million as a result of the bombing.[3]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S…

    The bombers were identified as Karleton Armstrong, Dwight Armstrong, David Fine and Leo Burt.  As far as I know, they were not connected in any way with Ayers or the weather underground.

    It goes without saying that “collateral damage” in the bombings included the millions of decent, law-abiding Americans who protested the war and sought to end it though legal means. The bombers made the legitimate peace movement’s job far harder.

         

    1. been killed by bombings, then or now.  I think that if you want to change something you go through the proper channels and change it.

      Neither McCain or Palin would say that.  Instead they basically compared Ayers, all by his lonesome, to fatal abortion clinic bombings.

      I don’t mind the “Domestic Terrorist” label, but if it’s used, it should be used across the board.

      1. For the record, William Ayers is a murderous, vile, son of a bitch whose reckless disregard for human life would have earned him a long and well deserved prison sentence had the government not wrecked the case against him by serious misconduct.

         Other than occasionally bumping into Obama, however, the viciousness of Ayers has nothing to do with Obama.   I really doubt that when planning his crimes,

        Ayers sought the advice and guidance of an eight-year-old kid who, if I recall correctly, was living in Indonesia at the time. The only difference between Ayers and Tim McVeigh is that McVeigh paid for his crimes, Ayers got tenure for his.  

        1. bomb abortion clinics (specifically fatally) are domestic terrorists, Palin and McCain went on tangents about Ayers.  What are they saying?  That a single man, who never actually killed anyone, is worse than the collective bombing and killing actions of fanatical Pro-Lifers.  Uh, sure.

          For the record, neither Williams, or I, brought up Obama.  I also only heard Palin, then McCain, bring up Ayers.  The question wasn’t, “Is Ayers a domestic terrorist that should be punished?”  Thee question was about if other domestic bombers that bomb domestically can be called Domestic Terrorists.

          1. And Palin equivocated on that. “I don’t know if they can be called terrorists…”

            IOKIYPTHRA (It’s okay if you’re pushing the hard right agenda. Even terrorism.)

  11. Read all about it:

    Charles Fried, a professor at Harvard Law School, has long been one of the most important conservative thinkers in the United States. Under President Reagan, he served, with great distinction, as Solicitor General of the United States. Since then, he has been prominently associated with several Republican leaders and candidates, most recently John McCain, for whom he expressed his enthusiastic support in January.

    This week, Fried announced that he has voted for Obama-Biden by absentee ballot. In his letter to Trevor Potter, the General Counsel to the McCain-Palin campaign, he asked that his name be removed from the several campaign-related committees on which he serves. In that letter, he said that chief among the reasons for his decision “is the choice of Sarah Palin at a time of deep national crisis.” [Aristotle’s emphasis throughout]

    My own thoughts: I see a big battle for the future of the GOP coming up quick. It seems like many of the hard right cons love Palin and are voting more for her than McCain, while old guard ‘pubs are voting for the so-called socialist, giving proof that Obama is not simply by their support. If it comes to an internal civil war in the Republican Party, the Democrats can take advantage by truly opening the big umbrella for these old school ‘pubs and leave the hard right in sole possession of a much less popular party.

    H/T to SLOG

    1. Their party is in total disarray right now. Nobody knows who’s in charge.

      Actually, they remind me a lot of the Dems in 2004. Everybody scurrying around trying to posture as a leader, with Kerry finally prevailing. But after he lost, there was nobody.

      There’s been a vacuum in the GOP thanks to Bush’s demonstrably weak last year in office. Who’s going to fill it? It doesn’t look like it’s going to be John McCain.

      1. As bad as things were for the Dems in 2004, I didn’t sense an incipient battle for the soul of the party between the left and moderate wings of the party, and none happened. I do believe that’s in the near-term future of the GOP.

        1. It was definitely a “message” battle, not a “heart and soul” battle like what the GOP is going to be facing on 11/5.

          But the absence of a leader (especially with the current President being a member of their party) is inexcusable.

          Reagan and Goldwater are spinning in their graves as we speak, I’m sure.

          2. Philosophically Dean and Obama are in the same place as far as grassroots organization.

            If they could fold the Obama organization into the the DNC, we could be looking at a real electoral power.

            I just hope we don’t get cocky and remember that we need to execute on the business of the American people.

            2 terms of Obama and we will a built in advantage that could last a generation.

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