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October 22, 2008 09:50 AM UTC

Amendment 47 already gives us the freedom to choose

  • 84 Comments
  • by: johne

( – promoted by Colorado Pols)

Transcript:

The few rich owners who are pushing constitutional amendment 47 say they want to give people a choice.

You do have a choice

Would you chose to pass an amendment that could strip away all the progress that Colorado workers have made with wages, with health care, and retirement.

In times like these, who would chose to destabilize Colorado’s economy and put jobs at risk.  

If it’s not broke, why fix it?

No on 47

It’s risky.  It’s wreckless. It’s wrong.

Not only do we have the freedom to choose to vote no on Amendment 47, we also have the freedom to reject changes to state law that has worked well in Colorado for over 60 years.  

The ballot language libertad keeps posting is meant to be confusing, and it was certainly intended to be misleading.  Mandatory union membership is already illegal in every state according to the Taft Hartley Act of 1947 and the Coloardo Labor Peace Act.  Before these bills, unions could have closed shop agreements where every employee had to be a member of the union.  Now we have agency shops or all-union shops where not everyone is required to join the union but they do have to pay some amount of fees or dues to the union for their representation.  However, federal law allows non members to have money meant for political purposes to be refunded.  That doesn’t sound so bad does it?  If you don’t want representation then don’t join the union.  Isn’t that what Amendment 47 would do?  Nope.  According to many documents and case files, unions are required to represent all employees of the company with which there is an agreement whether that employee is a member of the union or not.   This is spelled out most clearly by this document from the Legal Aid Society of San Francisco.  Considering that the language of Amendment 47 does not at all address changes to this provision, know as “duty of fair representation”, this it would remain intact.  This, in effect, creates union free-loaders.

If that’s the case, why would anyone pay union dues if the union would continue to bargain for them and be forced to represent them in the case of a grievance?  This is simply an effort to further weaken unions.

When the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that 8.7% of Coloradans are members of unions why is this even important?  I suppose because the only number of union members some people would be happy with is zero.

Furthermore, the backers of Amendment 47 talk about worker choice and freedom in their ads. Nothing could be further from the truth.  Specific to Coloardo the Colorado Labor Peace Act (pdf) sets up a unique second vote when establishing a union.   If a super majority of 75% votes for it, then non-members must contribute some fees to support the bargaining process and filing grievances. If the vote fails, non-members don’t have to pay a dime, but they do get that union support. Amendment 47 would do away with this vote. So, workers already have plenty of choices and freedom to decide what kind of union they want. Vote No on Amendment 47.

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84 thoughts on “Amendment 47 already gives us the freedom to choose”

  1. We’re one of the few states whose economies are actually growing, why mess with that?

    This is the ULTIMATE special interest amendment this year. Considering the people most vehemently supporting 47 are the ones who supposedly hate special interests the most (John Caldera anyone?) I find it all rather ridiculous.

      1. have 74 percent higher reported cases of male impotence.  It seems emasculation of workers doesn’t stop at the workplace.

          (Source: Faux News)

          1. You right wing fruitcakes have been buying so many ads in The Post to push amendment 47 that I’m looking for a new mercedes.

            How’s that dog-walking gig with Jonathan working out?

  2. by a fairly large margin as it should.

    Extorting money to pay fat cat union bosses for their own political causes is wrong.

    Unions are a thing of the past. They served us well in the early days but it is now time to let them go away. They are not needed anymore.

    We don’t need to be strong armed into paying for someone elses politcal causes.

    A tiny minority of people should never be allowed to “force” their cause on others.

    Yes on 47

    1. I’d say unions start looking pretty good for most folks.  Stat and more from the Denver Post earlier this month:

      The meltdown of the financial industry – accompanied by rich golden parachutes to deposed bank chiefs – is proof to many Americans that the way companies reward their executives doesn’t work.

      Executive pay remains high, with little connection to performance, critics say, despite efforts to fix the problem in the wake of Enron and other scandals.

          1. As we know corrupt Union, Corporate and Political Bosses created an unholy alliance to keep all Coloradans from having equal civil rights.

            We know this is true when the Boulder Daily Camera supports a YES vote for Amendment 47.

            “But what we must ask those unions: If you’re doing the very job you’ve been brought in to do, then wouldn’t workers choose to join you? Employees should always have that choice. Amendment 47 will provide that to them.”

            “The upshot for workers under Amendment 47 is that once the unions are in place, the lack of a guaranteed membership means the unions will have to continue to deliver on their promises in order to thrive.”

            – Editorial, Boulder Daily Camera, August 28, 2008

            1. with union members. Currently I work with 2 unions and negotiate our contracts with them. I don’t find ANY of them to be as Gecko describes. I find them to be very imaginative, very knowledgeable about their work, knowledgeable about what constrains me from giving them more, etc.

              I’ve never been in a union. doubtful I will ever need to. But, I am grateful to unions. Unions, more than any other force, have created wage scales and work conditions that allow us all to be proud to be Americans.

          2. have done nothing good or bad to me directly.

            But having had to work side by side with their workers many many times, workers from other trades, I can say that they are some of the laziest people I have ever seen. Not all but I bet a vast majority.

            I have talked about this before here. At the very stroke of break or lunch time the job site will be a ghost town. Not an ounce of any extra effort is put in to their work. They do only the minimum of what their job scope is and that is it.

            I have a buddy that has worked for a large electrical contractor here in town for over 30 years. They have to sub out much of their work to unions workers. (I’m not sure how their agreement works) He tells me the same thing. They will get pissed off if anybody puts in extra effort as they feel it will make them look bad.

            In short, they are under worked and over paid with no incentive to try harder. Their pay scale is mostly based on senority instead of hard work.

            I have no use for unions period.

                1. I work with a very nice mixture of union and non-union people and don’t see the difference in production–just people working together to get the job done.  

                  But then, unlike you, I don’t live to hate others.

                  1. are the same fuckin thing.

                    Get off your attacks on me. I don’t hate union workers. I just think based on experience that most of them are lazy and worthless.

                    You love them. Great, but back off calling me down because my opinion is not the same as yours.

                    1. …anyone should call you out for calling an entire group of people “lazy and worthless”.  

                      Nice use of that old GOP technique of playing the victim too.  You’ve certainly mastered it well, bless your angry, cold little heart.  

              2. The fat corrupt thug Union Boss Ernie Duran even admits that 50% of his members would leave if given the choice.

                Union Bosses should have to earn their membership dues.

                1. thing while hiding under a cowardly alias thing working out for you, Libertine?

                  No guts, no brains, what a guy!

                  Now, walk Jonathan’s dog, you’re late.

                    2. Making statements that might get you in trouble because you make stuff up.

                      Try using facts.  But, since you have nothing, you are wasting your time typing up your wild thoughts.

            3. In short, they are under worked and over paid with no incentive to try harder. Their pay scale is mostly based on senority instead of hard work.

              You are describing CEOs.

              You make me sick. I can’t stand it when I see a wage-earner (right? or do you have millions? if you do, then you prove that you don’t have to be innovative to make it big) gleefully taking it up the ass for the fat-cats.  

              1. Fuck you.

                You are obviously a newbie here with no fucking clue what you are talking about.

                Have you ever worked on construction sites?

                Ever? If so, how many years? Or do you even know what the fuck a hard hat is?

                I have worked right along with them for years and still do.

                I bet you don’t even have a job. Living on the public handout possibly?

                I love it when newbie liberal slim come on this site trying to “join the bandwagon” with some of the other regulars here. Most of the people that have been here for years know that I am not rich, and I don’t lie.

                Get a life  

                2. and your mentality. “they don’t work on their breaks meow meow meow.”

                  Do you have any idea what unions have done for you to live your comfortable lifestyle? I think you are the one who is lazy. Amendment 47 is funded by a giant union of assholes. Why aren’t you against that union?  

                  1. lifestyle was accomplished due to my busting my ass for years and earning it.

                    Unions did nothing to help me except maybe give us the 40 hour work week. And if you weren’t so flippin blind you would have read that I said they were good once, but not needed now.

                    You never did answer my question…….you never have been on a construction site have you? Driving by one does not count. So how the fuck would you know a damn thing about the work ethics of union workers?

                    Ding ding ding…..you don’t. You are all talking points and no experience.

                    1. Thats all?

                      If this mentions something Americans don’t have, its because we haven’t had the union power to fight for it.

                      That means that AUSTRALIA has it better than us.

                      God bless America.  

                    2. “He’s to fat, he’s too small, he’s too old, they’re all fucked, they’re fucked, do you understand me.” – Joe McDonald Union Boss, Perth

                    3. then you are old and outdated. This is a community blog not a site under construction (hehe).

                      “I was here first” -he cried from his assisted living bed.

                      Guess what?

                      Then you leave first.  

                    4. Sufi, please, you are not helping anything when you say crap like that. Gecko might be rude sometimes, but he’s earned his stripes.

                      Since you’ve started posting comments here in August, you have been mean and hate-filled in 90% of your posts. The leftist mindset might go over well at square state, but at least try to be civil here. Even when others are not.

                    5. why are you crying about this? I know what this site is about. I’m pissed off and expressing myself. If it isn’t on par with esteemed level of discourse (lol) this site has then fine. But I have seen a lot of banter betwixt you good old boys that forces me to call “balderdash” to your offense.

                      If he wants to attack me then great, do it! But I will fight back. Nothing I have said here is that bad for you sensitive sallys.

                      I’m sorry Gecko. Did I hurt your feelings?  

                    6. getting all sandy and looking me up? What are you looking for? My contact info? My home address? I already had to shut down geogreg because he was getting too close for comfort.

                      Yeah, I’m a girl. Yeah, I’m young. You have no idea (i hope) where I came from or what I have been through.

                      You make me wanna sockpuppet it up so I can feel safe. No wonder you have problems with that here.

                    7. It’s not that hard to click on a handle, look at when the ID was created, and scroll through the comments they’ve made. Nobody really cares that much, it’s just been getting old.

                      No need to get so freaking defensive, I’m just saying that you can make your point without being so shrill.

                      Go ahead and make a sock puppet so you can feel “safe”.

  3. Checkout Denver’s 7: http://www.thedenverchannel.co…

    An Adams County mom is no longer allowed to drop off or pick up her 7 year old daughter from school after a teacher obtained a restraining order against her.

    Traci Jaramillo said it all came to a head at a parent-teacher conference when her daughter’s teacher raised her voice. “I said, ‘That will not happen, so please check your tone,'” Jaramillo said.

    Jaramillo, 38, told 7NEWS the tense meeting followed her repeated requests to have her daughter’s completed school work sent home for her to review. Jaramillo said she’d expressed concern over her 7-year-old daughter’s performance in spelling and reading.

    On Tuesday morning Jaramillo said she was greeted at her work by an Adams County sheriff’s deputy, who delivered a protective order restricting Jaramillo from going within 100 yards of teacher Lisa Savaleta or Thimmig Elementary, her daughter’s school.

    “I was shocked,” Jaramillo said.

    In the court documents, provided to 7NEWS by Jaramillo, the teacher wrote, “Traci has been harassing me via voice mail, e-mail and in person for the past eight days.”

    Savaleta also wrote, “Traci sent yet another harassing and slanderous e-mail to myself, as well as the principal, and superintendent of the school district.”

    In the e-mail, Jaramillo wrote, “Just another example of Ms. Savaleta being an untrustworthy individual … She needs to be held accountable at this time and written up.”

    Jaramillo said she sent the e-mail after a progress chart was not sent home, as earlier agreed to by the teacher.

    “My intention was never to have anyone feel threatened,” Jaramillo told 7NEWS. “All I wanted was to make sure my daughter is getting the education I feel she deserves.”

    Despite efforts to contact Savaleta for additional comment Tuesday, she could not be reached.

    Jaramillo said her older daughter had the same teacher for two years prior, without any concerns.

    “I feel like I’ve been taken out of the loop of my daughter’s education,” Jaramillo said.

    Jaramillo called the teacher’s actions “extreme,” and added that while the principal was working with her, having to miss school plays and other school events, only hurts her daughter, Taylor.

    The 7-year-old then spoke up.

    “It’s not fair that my mom can’t come to anything, not even to come to school to volunteer,” Taylor said.

    3. Man, Libertad, you’re one-trick-pony show is getting really old.  

      What you’ve posted here indicates that that the teacher in question feels threatened by the parent, so she went to the local authorities (not a union) to seek protection.  I don’t think we can judge from the article whether or not that was an appropriate move–and I’m thinking the parent isn’t about to admit to being a stalker if she is, indeed, one.

      But what’s your frickin’ point?  There is no union involved!  And if you’re going to blame all that goes wrong in schools, including bullying on the playground on CEA, I give up

  4. From Amendment 47 already gives us the freedom to choose:

    If that’s the case, why would anyone pay union dues if the union would continue to bargain for them and be forced to represent them in the case of a grievance?

    If unions do benefit the workers, the shouldn’t have any problems collecting dues.  If the don’t benifit the workers, why should we be forced to pay them?  To me, 47 isn’t just about freedoms, it is about giving the workers more say and control in the union.  This would make the unions more representative and more accountable and therefore stronger and more effective.  

    What percentage of Colorado union members are forced to pay dues verses those that have the choice?  Would this really be the end of organized labor if we gave a few more people an option to financial support a labor union?

    I doubt 47 will be the end of union and if that is the case, unions aren’t doing enough to earn their support.  

    1. even though your question isn’t properly formed.  From the BLS link I provided, 8.7% of Coloradans are union members.  Another .5% are protected by unions, but are non full members.  That’s the number of people we’re talking about.  Whole lotta hoopla over a tiny number of people.

      1. Contrary to all the spin giving all Coloradans the RTW won’t damage union membership, but in turn greatly increases the freedoms of union members to choose without any demonstrated loss in membership.

  5. In my opinion there does not seem to be much of an argument against Amendment 47. Commercials for both sides seem to vague and misleading. The commercial above seems particularly deceptive and raises many questions.

    First why is it that it has come down to a “few rich owners” to fight for my right to choose? Why hasn’t organized labor been fighting for this all along? If the commodities offered by unions are so great why must they rely on compelled membership to survive?

    There seems to be a fear that this amendment to Colorado’s constitution will destroy unions in Colorado. I contend it could make them better by compelling them to provide better services. Because dues would be paid on a completely voluntary basis union leaders will have to work that much harder to convince potential members that they are providing a desired service.

    While I understand the frustration that is created by the free rider problem it is certainly no reason for a group to be able to compel dues for employees simply trying to make a living. Many groups survive and prosper with freeloaders. AARP and NRA spring to mind off hand. Tell me should we require any one who is 55 or older to pay dues to AARP simply because they receive direct and indirect benefits from the organizations existence. No that’s simply ridicules.

    I understand the argument offered for union membership being voluntary already, but honestly it’s not good enough for me. Refunds provide by federal law for funds being used for political purposes is a joke. With out oversight by an objective third party (which is not provided for by any law) there is no way to tell how much of any one person’s dues are being used for political purposes.

    When money is taken from you with out your consent despite any benefit you may receive it can only be considered two things a tax or theft. So for a union to try and do this is awfully brazen.  

    1. Amendment 47 would allow something for nothing, getting protection and bargaining from the union without paying for it.  And we already have this option if that’s what the employees setting up the union want.  First vote of simple majority esatblishes a union, one were non-memeber don’t have to pay any dues or fees, but do get the protections.  The Denver Newspaper agency is setup this way.  The second vote is for all-union status.  If a supermajority or 75% say yes, then non-members have to pay some fees to cover the protections they get. I already described this above, which makes me wonder about the reasons for your misinformed comment.

      Trying to compare labor unions to the AARP and NRA is hilarious.  As a non member of the AARP, can I go to them to help me in employement or healthcare arbitration? The AARP doesn’t have a contract to directly help non members.  

      1. plain and simple. Unions want total power over as many employees as humanly possible and will strong arm any who object.

        Kinda like helmet laws……….let those who ride decide…….

        1. Or was it your hardhat?

          Unless the wobblies make a comeback there is no group that shelters unions under one umbrella. Unions are a concept that is unpredictable and sporadic, not one organization like the NRA or AARP. Big difference between the two.Different rules apply for the various shade of gray.

          The one thing I have noticed about union nay-sayers is that they think unions are breeding grounds for laziness and sub-productivity in the workplace. If thats so, then confront it in your workplace. Form a coalition (or union) with others as enlightened as you and voice your grievances collectively. If you feel bullied by the union’s response, the go work for a non-union shop(you do have this freedom of choice, ya know.)

          “Well why should I leave” you ask.

          Then don’t.  Do your best work and thats all you have to worry about, right?

          Imagine taking your grievances to the Wal-mart Waltons. You won’t get nearly as far.

          The concept of unions are the only thing that will help America bring back manufacturing jobs and flourishing innovation. If you continue to strangle unions you are setting yourself and your country up for southeast asian-like situations. With unions we have more of a fighting chance against the atrocities mega-corps have perpetrated.

          1. I’m 52 and plenty old enough but not one yet.

            Look, I make $30.00 an hour including nice benefits.

            I am a high school graduate only. No college education. I make more than union scale and am well worth it. I have been at the same job for 24 years next month.

            I say it again, unions are not necessary. If one applies themselves and works hard, one can and will succeed without a union stealing their hard earned money.

            Period.

                1. so you’re wise not to look at me. You might see your reflection in my glasses and turn to stone!

                   How’s that medusa thing working out for you, girl?

              2. I will stop picking on you.

                But I do think its time for a <3 to <3:

                I have to be honest and tell you how I feel. You guys seem insecure so let me try to tell you that I think once a girl steps in and shows you up, you get all crotchety. Would it be better if I pretended to be a boy? I could introduce myself as a “newbie” here seeking wise council.

                I’m sure you could beat my ass, grampa.

                You sure are classy.  

                1. But if you want to continue this verbal boxing, you might want to consider not leading with your chin!

                   Here’s a rough rule:

                   Racist, sexist and ageist insults are bad form because you’re attacking people for things they can’t control: their age, their gender, the color of their skin.

                     N—–, b—- and your own favorite insult “grandpa” fall under the ban on isms.

                    On the other hand, when I attack you for wearing white after Labor Day, I’m on perfectly solid ground because your lousy fashion sense is your choice, not your genes.

                   I wouldn’t, however, insult your lifetime membership in the Lawrence Welk fan club because your taste in music may well be inborn.

                   There’s certainly no prejudice against women on this board, ask Middle of the Road how many times she’s reamed us out.

                    But your claim to have “shown us up”

                  thereby making us resent your womanhood is just dumb. You didn’t come close to even squelching Gecko, let alone me.

                  Now, dry your tears, walk your dog, and come back with either a better attitude or at least a decent set of insults.  

                     

                    1. was the best damn linebacker the Giants ever had, that’s who!

                      \  Gawd, you are young;-)

      2. I understand that when a union is formed the founding members choose whether or not to compel “fees” from those who receive services. What about those who are employed after the union is formed who do not wish to be affiliated with the union at all. They get the shaft.

        You make a valid point that if A-47 passes there will be people receiving something for nothing. In my opinion this is a cost of doing business. If the services provide are so desirable people will choose to pay dues voluntarily but to force some one to pay for something they do not want is wrong.  

        Based on your argument so far I don’t believe you objection should be with A-47 but rather whether or not a union should be forced to represent non members.  I tell you today should legislation be posed limiting union representation to only due paying members I will support it whole heartedly. I want to make it clear I am no anti-union on principle I am opposed to privet organization being able to force membership.

        And it is a forced membership even if the only fees collected are for services rendered. (which I honestly find implausible)    

        1. Bshepard0430

          PersonId: 8103

          Created: Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 01:21:38 AM MDT

          How’s that sockpuppet thing working out for you, Libertine?

           Now walk Jonathan’s dog, dammit.  Why do you think he hired you?

              1. It is amazing to me that you (Ewegen) sit there and promote you got a raise and are looking to buy a new Mercedes three days after you CEO states he’ll be off-shoring anything he can to grow EPS. http://coloradopols.com/showDi…

                Ewegen, you sir are a greedy management pig the likes of Nacchio, Ebbers, Lay, and Kozlowski.

                Shame on you for gloating on your gain and luxury gas guzzling behaviors while team members are pushed off pay-roll.

                This behavior is typical un-American elitism.

                Actually, just got a raise, Libertine

                … I’m looking for a new mercedes.

                ——————————————————————————–

                by: bob ewegen @ Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 11:09:44 AM CDT

                1. working out for you, Libertine?

                  It must be great getting up every morning and looking at the mirror only to see a gutless coward who insults people behind an alias. No wonder you shill for the union busters.  Nobody else would hire your craven ass.

                   Now, walk Jonathan’s dog, he’s getting really pissed at your goofing off.

          2. p.s. at 1:21 I was sitting in Wendy’s chowing down on Idaho potatoes, Coke from Georgia, Nebraska beef and white bun bread, Iowa cheese and veggies from Mexico.


          3. I’m new here and afraid I will display a bit of ignorance but I’m not completely sure what is meant by Sock puppet. I’m sure I understand some of the connotation but perhaps some one could elaborate.  

              1. I guarantee that I am a legitimate individual user of this sight expressing my own insights and opinions. I know of no way to prove this unless anyone is interested in a short autobiography but even this may not be enough for skeptics.  

                1. Libertine is a shill, a one trick pony who uses every coceivable venue to push the right to work for less issue, over and over and over. And, sure, in the past he’s created phony accounts to support his own posts (a sock puppet) I first took you for one of his because you signed in today and immediately started bashing unions and flacking 47.  On the other hand, you actually used complete sentences, which Libertine the Shill never does.

                  My apologies. You’re wrong on the right to work for less but obviously much smarter than the dimwit Libertine.

            2. Welcome, my child.

              When masturbating (both actually and intellectually) a sockpuppet can assist in taking your “shots”. You have sockpuppets to trigger the traps you want to set. You can “smear” them with the “shots” you want to take all over their face.

              sockpuppet come from the Latin term “gym sock”.

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