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October 16, 2008 01:10 AM UTC

Final Presidential Debate Open Thread

  • 136 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

Hail Mary, full of grace.

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136 thoughts on “Final Presidential Debate Open Thread”

  6. featured on Olbermann’s show tonight.  If I didn’t know it was Burgess Meredith portraying the Penguin, I’d swear it was Dick Morris.

  7. Obama is agressive and pushes back on what McCain says. But he doesn’t in any way go for the kill or try to set McCain off.

    Why?

    Because America doesn’t like to see people beating up on someone who has already lost. So Obama needs to stick up for himself, but not be seen piling on.

  11. McCain blames Obama for having to beat up on him because he declined to do endless town meetings.

    There goes the Reagan Democrat vote for McCain, calling “George Wallace” part of the worst chapter in American history.  

  13. Awfully directly, repeating the “terrorist” and “kill him” shouts. Obama gets to restate Lewis’s charges against McCain while denouncing them, and then take the high road in a return to his path from very early in the campaign about getting beyond politics as usual.

      1. McCain guarantees that the mainstream media will have to blush its way to describe the T-shirts — and, in the interest of unreasonable balance, describe McCain’s famous use of the C-word about his wife. Bad move.

  15. everytime someone’s been out of line? Not so, he did not repudiate the shouts from his rowdy crowds, either from the podium or later after they were reported widely.

    McCain looks small and defensive, petty.

    Obama’s smile is huge.

    ACORN on the verge of perpetrating perhaps the greatest voter fraud in American history? Is he just desperate now?

    Obama takes Ayers by the horns and puts it to rest with the Annenberg connection — calmly and to the point.

    The contrast between Obama and McCain is huge.

  16. or at least she tried very, very hard to fire one government worker in Alaska.

    How does Sarah Palin understand autism better than any other American? Is she secretly a high-functioning autistic savant?

    1. Palin’s nephew is autistic and there’s as good as a 1 in 10 chance that Trig will be autistic as well in addition to having Down’s.  I assume she has something of a clue compared to most people.

      1. Just check her per diem reimbursements and travel expense records — she’s home a lot of the time, and she takes all the kids with her when she travels across Alaska.

  18. He accuses Obama of asking for $800-and-some billion in new spending. No he didn’t, he pursued roughly that amount in earmarks out of spending that had already been appropriated. Doesn’t mention that, during the same period Obama has been in the Senate, the Alaska governor’s office has asked for a roughly equivalent sum in earmarks.

  20. Does that include both marijuana AND cocaine?

    Maybe you oughta travel down there and visit — McCain is sounding shrill, small, desperate and petty. The difference between their demeanors is stark. Obama owns this discussion.

    1. guardian.co.uk on June 19, 2008:

      Colombia’s coca crop increased by 27% last year, a surge which has shocked the United Nations and raised fresh questions about BogotГЎ’s US-backed “war” on drugs. Cultivation unexpectedly boomed in the country that is the world’s leading supplier of cocaine, according to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime’s annual report, published yesterday.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…

        1. John McCain says he’s a “federalist” — he thinks that our states ought to have regional autonomy.

          Except, that is, when it comes to ending federal raids on medical marijuana patients in states like Colorado which have passed medical marijuana laws: then, John McCain remains a statist.

          http://granitestaters.com/cand…

    2. I don’t want to call him nervous and on edge if I’m remembering a voice that didn’t exist.

      It’s not so bad now, but at the beginning he really sounded upset.

  21. Does McCain think he’s riding around in a giant Oldsmobile or something? What’s next, McCain wants to tackle the vital national problem of cruise control too?

  23. on hair transplants?

    OK, he’s planning on a new generation of Okies, traveling the highways of our great nation seeking affordable health care with their $5,000 tax credits?

  26. to make a red-meat appeal to rabid pro-lifers? While at the same time undercutting any support he has from Independents and pro-choice Republicans who, for whatever reason, think his maverickism extends to his abortion policies?

  29. Just throw out those pesky classes and certification tests; that you’ve experienced IRD’s is good enough?

    Did I hear this right?  (I’m interjecting the IRD part.)

      1. I’ve talked to a number of teachers and they all say the certificationc lasses are a total waste of time. I’m not saying that being in the military means you’re qualified to teach, but I don’t think the certification means much either.

        If certification is so important, why do private & charter schools not require it?

        1. When I was in school, some math grad students were hired by private schools to teach, despite not having certification. They did, however, have an advanced degree in the subject, as well as teaching experience with other students. That’s something, although I think teaching below-college students is harder than teaching college students (and thus requires a little more qualification).

          But McCain’s program sounded like you didn’t need any experience teaching, or even any background in the subject. Soldiers are so awesome that they know everything by the time they come back from a war.

        2. Recall, both my mother and I were (certified) teachers.  OTOH, I’ve known a few younger ones ca. 2000 that I wouldn’t want my kids near.  One, a roommate, was immature, drug addled, and a total flake.

          Certification doesn’t catch those defects, or is too kind a process to to deny a job after all those years.

          OTOH, some training in how people learn and a screening process is a good thing.  

    2. I was shocked by that proposal.

      Troops have very hard jobs. No disrespect to them. But they often go into the military right out of high school. I don’t think they’re suddenly qualified to teach geometry or calculus or most other subjects to people not much younger than they are.

      Teachers need qualifications before they get in front of children.

  31. He should have pushed the equal pay for equal work thing.  Force McCain to either flip or repeat

    This     comment.

    “They need the education and training, particularly since more and more women are heads of their households, as much or more than anybody else,” McCain said.

    1. They’ll also  be vying for scarce positions at our nation’s over-crowded community colleges, along with all the bad teachers undergoing “retraining.”

    1. I raised the question above and was duly chastened.

      Still not sure that makes her a national expert on the topic, but I’ll grant she’s very, very concerned about it.

        1. He was listening so much to bloggers and pundits, who have been telling him what to do for weeks, that he just ended up talking to them. I’m kind of a political junkie, so I got most of the references (didn’t know about the autistic nephew though), but I’d imagine he was talking straight over the heads of most viewers.

          But The Corner is happy he pandered to them.

  34. Trying to post before reading or hearing commentary…

    1) McCain was blinking like crazy. Is that a tell? He did look at Obama, which is a plus, but eventually he had that really evil-looking blinky smirk which was just weird to look at.

    2) Joe the Plumber. Early on, my wife and I decided one of our drinking game things would be mentioning Joe the Plumber. We couldn’t have imagined that Joe would be mentioned twenty times. As she joked, “We drank a bottle of Jack listening to John talk about Joe.”

    3) Schieffer had very good questions. The only objectionable thing was that on almost every question, he gave McCain the last word (there was one exception).

    4) Obama looked very professional. Even more than usual, he was very focused on putting things in clear terms and describing what he would do for voters. McCain seemed like he had way too much to say, and didn’t have enough practice talking to normal people, and so had a sort of verbal diarrhea, spilling out a bunch of stuff.

    5) Abortion will kill McCain. Lots of people have long believed McCain was moderate, and as evidence they claimed he was pro-choice. This is the first time McCain has ever had to admit he’s pro-life. He lost votes on it.

    6) McCain screwed up on the “Say it to his face” thing. He played the victim, which looked pathetic, and then when he realized he was losing the point, spilled out all the ACORN and Ayers stuff, which went nowhere.

    7) Point for McCain: “I’m not Bush…” was a very good line. Clearly it wasn’t spontaneous, but it came off well.

    On the whole, I think Obama won this debate, by a much bigger margin than the other debates.

    1. One of the longest living lies has been that old man Mccain is a moderate.  He has always been hard core on choice and women.  He has always worked the far right and hard core Repub issues.

      The spin has never been on the true old man Mccain philosophy. Hard core right.

  35. and Schieffer was a better moderator than Brokaw in my opinion.  I thought the interaction between the two men was more authentic.

    McCain didn’t help himself by dismissing a woman’s health in a later term medical condition.  He also is lying when he said that mainstream America supports the criminalization of women.  That was a total BS line.

      1. In terms of asking followups, having questions about a broad range of issues (really, we had to wait until the fourth debate to hear about abortion?), and treating the candidates like adults.

        But yes, Brokaw was the worst debate moderator I’ve ever seen in my political life, going back to 1992. Stupid questions, no discussion, no effort to get candidates to answer, making it all about himself…

      2. I think there are enough wise old white men in the trade that we can let a few others have a crack at it. I think Ifill should get another chance, see if she can moderate well without the attacks from Fox to keep her in her place.

  36. Wow, ok this was a win for McCain. Not a giant one, but a clear win.

    At the begining McCain was in the groove and making his points clearly and persuasively. And Obama was off – he was a bit unsure and was not responding well. And the biggie was that McCain was on offense with Obama on defense.

    Then we have Joe the plumber. It worked, and worked to McCain’s favor. And while it got old having him keep coming up, Joe was clearly painted as someone who will support McCain with Obama plaintatively trying to get Joe’s support. Joe was not good for Obama.

    Then we hit McCain’s “I am not president Bush.” What does that do? Well the 20% of the country that thinks Bush is doing a good job is going to be honked off bigtime. They won’t vote for Obama, but now they may not bother voting for McCain either. It will be interesting to see how this affects the base – to dis your own party’s president.

    For the independents, I think this was the single most powerful thing he could say. It responds to the biggest attack of Obama’s campaign. But I’m not sure it helps much, especially this late. Because the Obama campaign has consistently hit McCain not for being Bush, but for supporting him. This will get McCain some votes, but I don’t think it will be a significant shift.

    McCain also handled the is Palin qualified question very well. He made a strong argument for her using arguments that are reasonable. He clearly was prepared for that question and made it a non-issue for this debate.

    Then we hit the angry old man part. McCain was clearly mad about what was being said about him in the campaign while Obama handled it as part of the job. This was easily McCain’s one bad part in the debate. But I don’t think this will count for much either. Dems will think he got too upset, Repubs will agree with McCain, and independents I don’t think will see anything that bad in someone who gets a bit upset.

    The second half of the debate was pretty even. Obama hit his stride and gave as good as he got. Both had times when they did a good job talking up themself and hitting the other. Both took hits that landed. But McCain was also doing well and so I would say the second half was a wash.

    What does this mean? That Obama has won. Obama continued to come across as competent and presidential. He has a 7 – 10 point lead in the polls. And nothing in this debate made for a noticable change.

    Finally, I am disappointed in Obama. He should have distinguished between himself and McCain on handling the economic mess we are in today. He didn’t.

    1. Based on the polls, I think this is the first debate Obama has won with a clear majority (rather than plurality).

      The reason is that Obama was talking very clearly to voters about things they care about, while McCain was rambling about tons of stuff that had no connection to people. (Colombia? WTF? Women’s health? What’s wrong with that? Overhead projector? Huh?)

      As the first debate proved, clever lines don’t matter this year.  

    2. I was in a room of relatively undecided, or at least not strongly uncommitted voters from middle of the spectrum (no one who reads Pols), and not a one thought McCain “won.” He lost 70 percent of the electorate with his extreme hounding on abortion, including that weird dismissiveness about a woman’s “health.” His demeanor was creepy and did not seem presidential — no one wants to endure that for four years. He seemed mean and nervous and patronizing, often in the same sentence.

      I’d say Obama won running away, and probably won in a bigger way by being calm and not making any news than he would have if he’d knocked one out of the park. People want reassurance and confident strength, not a hot-dog with an unsettling laugh.

    3. Earlier today on politico.com there was a thread that collected one line zinger suggestions from people around the country.  

      I read McCain’s line about running against President Bush on that thread prior to the debate and then he used it.

      I can’t find the original thread on politico.com now.

      After the debate Diane Sawyer called it the line of the night. It was someone else’s line, but I don’t know whose.

      Anyone else see this?

    4. what I found:

      Quinn Hurdle (guest), Student, DC:

      McCain to Obama: I know seantor Obama likes to talk about George Bush….But out of the two people stading before you tonight, I am thonly one who has ever run against George Bush!

      Tom Korologos, Former ambassador, consultant and Republican strategist:

      At the first mention of President Bush Sen. McCain should say: Look, George Bush is not running this year. It was in all the papers. He’s NOT running.

      http://www.politico.com/arena/…

      What McCaim said:

      Sen. Obama, I am not President Bush, if you wanted to run against President Bush you should have run four years ago.

       

      1. and commenters. But his version of that line was better than the other suggested versions, by a lot. Like every good line, it both has an obvious meaning (“I’m not Bush”) and a subtler meaning (“You barely existed 4 years ago”).

        I can’t help but think McCain gave up on the idea of winning the debate, and decided to just make sure at least the Corner and RedState stop complaining about him after this.

        1. I think he’s also trying to preserve his reputation among fellow senators at this point, so he can serve out his days without making everyone (but Joe Lieberman) cringe.

          1. But I actually think McCain may just resign after this election. He’s up again in 2010, and I strongly doubt he’ll run for re-election. The Senate, for him, was only worth anything as a stepping stone to the Presidency, which really would have proven to that “long line of McCains” that he was worthy.

            In fact, I wonder if he’ll resign this January and become a Bob Dole sort of celebrity.

              1. …and McCain is the kind of – dare I say it – maverick who would accept an Obama post.  And then the governor of Arizona could appoint a Democratic senator!  Yee haw!

                BTW, when the 800B-Billion welfare package was passed, an earmark was inserted that will help Florida a lot in solar energy advancement.  Locally, it was known as a “sweetener.”  

                Fucking hypocrites.

                1.    With all respect, he looks in bad physical condition.  He is very stiff in his body and walk, his face looks stiff, that growth on his jaw is prominent, he was really having trouble stumbling over words and phrases, he just doesn’t look like a person with a lot of TR’s Bull Moose “vigah.”

                  (Of course that might be a good thing, or Sarah might get her gun…;>))

                  1. I checked Wikipedia a while ago about John McCain’s grandfather, John S. McCain, Sr., who was a Navy admiral and participated in the pacific campaign in WWII.  The stress of the war basically killed him.  Even though I am not a McCain supporter I was interested in his family history. Anyway, here is an excerpt from Wiki on him:

                    On October 30, 1944 McCain assumed command of TF 38. He retained command of the fast carrier task force that he led through the Battle of Okinawa and raids on the Japanese mainland.

                    While conducting operations off the Philippines, McCain as Chief of Staff of Third Fleet, participated in Halsey’s decision to keep the combined naval task force on station rather than avoid a major storm, Typhoon Cobra (later known also as “Halsey’s Typhoon”) which was approaching the area. The storm sank three destroyers and inflicted heavy damage on many other ships. Some 800 men were lost, in addition to 146 aircraft. A Navy court of inquiry found that while Halsey committed an error of judgment in sailing into the typhoon, it stopped short of unambiguously recommending sanction.[9]

                    By war’s end in August 1945, the stress of combat operations had worn McCain down to a weight of only 100 pounds. He requested home leave to recuperate but Halsey insisted that he be present at the Japanese surrender ceremony in Tokyo Bay, Japan on September 2, 1945. Departing immediately after the ceremony, McCain died of a heart attack at his home in Coronado, California on September 6, 1945. He was posthumously promoted to full admiral.[5]

                    During his career McCain was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal and two Gold Stars in lieu of subsequent awards.[10]

    5. they thought the “you should have run against Bush four years ago” line sounded rude and loved Obama’s come back about why he might get confused between Bush and McCain policy since they’re so similar on all major issues with McCain voting for 4 out of 5 Bush budgets. They hated the Ayers stuff.  

      The split screen showed McCain smirking and sneering throughout Obama’s answers, eyes wandering all over the place as if he was just waiting for the opportunity to say something snide, while Obama was shown listening earnestly or sometimes smiling (not sneering) in good natured exasperation, usually shortly before demolishing another McCain talking point with solid facts in a relaxed way.

      McCain has surely been told his grumpy disdainful demeanor isn’t going over but just can’t bring himself to be pleasant for a second on the same stage as Obama.

      Most weren’t buying McCain’s claim that he repudiates all nasty attacks on Obama while Obama tolerates awful attacks on him or that Obama’s noting the cries of “terrorist” and “kill him” was an attack on McCain’s wonderful salt of the earth supporters.  

      Obama scored big on the issues and all the insta-polls showed Obama winning this debate bigger than he won the first two.   Think you were a little tone deaf on this one, Dave.

       

  37. What did people do in the old days before the internet & insta-polls. From DailyKOS

    CBS poll of undecided voters:

    Who won the debate?

    McCain (R) 22

    Obama (D) 53

    Shares your values

    Obama, Before the debate: 54

    Obama, After the debate: 63

    McCain, Before the debate: 53

    McCain, After the debate: 56

    Update: CNN poll of voters who watched debate:

    Who won the debate?

    McCain (R) 31

    Obama (D) 58

    Favorable/Unfavorable

    Obama, before debate: 63/35

    Obama, after debate: 66/33

    McCain, before debate: 51/45

    McCain, after debate: 49/49

  38. This is interesting. I just got off the phone with one of my daughters who watched a bit of the debate. When I asked her what she thought she said “John McCain is stupid.”

    When I asked her why, she said it was because he mostly would just sort of repeat what Obama said first. Interesting perspective – McCain definitely does not connect with 20 year olds.

  39. ..here in Sarasota.

    Obama’s, as I knew, is right in the heart of our very active downtown. While parking can be a crapshoot, it’s in the hub of activity and commerce.

    McCain’s is about five miles south in ‘burbia, technically not even in Sarasota.  On a main drag, US 41, but not easily accessible if you are coming south.

    Another great decision?  

    2. and the split screen killed him.  McCain went from grumpy looking to downright repulsive.  He didn’t have his facts right and his decision to bring up Ayers just gave Obama an opportunity to set the record straight in a completely unruffled fashion.  

      And the last thing your average American is worried about right now is class warfare against the poor defenseless rich.  Not after the spectacle of the ones who got us into this mess escaping unscathed with their golden parachutes.  Not sure by what standards anyone would consider this a McCain win.  Polls completely unsurprising

  41. Voting begins in Colorado next week.  Finally.

    What I liked about this debate was the 2nd question about the deficit and direct question about abortion.  The deficit is maybe the underlying problem of our economy.  Obama came close when he said we need to reform our use of credit but neither one really clanged the four alarm alert on it.  My 23 year old son just joined the Concord Coalition and if a young person in their early twenties understands the urgency of the issue then why can’t these professional politicians talk candidly about it?

    The abortion question was a great question by Schieffer.  It was the defining segment.  Bush talked to his base and Obama talked to the country.  IMO this election will let every politician in America understand that the majority of voters in this country do not support the criminalization of woman.  I thought McCain was terrible in his condescension of woman and I thought Obama was right on by saying that it is something that is not subject to the states or the tyranny of the majority.  I was at Invesco when he said that we will always disagree about abortion but we can agree to work together to reduce unwanted pregnancies.  He restated that position tonight and it was powerful.  I thought he was absolutely brilliant during that section.  He refuted McCain’s attempts to characterize his votes in the Illinois senate and categorically stated that no one is pro-abortion.  He was brilliant on a difficult subject without conceding his support for women.

        1. if he had actually used it. “Sorry, it’s easy to get confused.” Instead, McCain wasted the opportunity, and Obama got to get off a very similar line about him.

      2. I keep confusing the too.  Between their love of “The Surge”tm and slavish devotion to what Bush senior said was “Voo Doo Economics”, I have trouble telling the difference.

  42. In comparison to the other debates it seemed very clear that the gloves came off tonight for McCain.  However, I think he came across somewhat as an asshole and I think it hurt him.  When people are scared and unsure of their future they aren’t going to listen to someone acting like a bully.  They are going to listen and follow someone that they feel understands what they are going through, someone who will listen to what they have to say, and someone with strong leadership.  They don’t want someone who will tell them what to do.  They want to voice their opinions and then entrust their faith in a leader that has the best chance of getting us there.

      1. I pretty much feel the way McCain must have felt there. Glad to have the debates over with, and getting into the home stretch.

        It’s a funny photo though.

  44. I don’t like name calling and simple labels, but I can find other words.

    He reminds me of the old person that tries to be “in touch” and comes off weird.

    McCain speaking about abortion was sickening.  Obama pointed out that no one is Pro abortion and the key is education and access to birth control.  McCain just coming back to the Obama is “pro-abortion” as if a young woman would gladly choose abortion over not being in the situation in the first place. Once again clearly out of touch.

    He is also an indignant old man.  The facial expressions were insulting and made me angry.  I kept thinking who the fuck does he think he is to treat another person who has the respect of enough people in the country to gain the nomination of a major party with that type of distain and disrespect?

    I am also sick of the pundits who can’t see past their party’s talking points.  They come off stupid with repeating the fact that McCain won this debate and how great he is.

    Time to admit, your guy just doesn’t play well with others, nor does he come off as respectable, in control or in anyway Presidential.

    One last pet peeve – why won’t McCain look at his wife?  Barack and Michelle were still embracing when McCain broke them up to shake Michelle’s hand.  He barely acknowledged that Cindy was there.  I hate seeing that in any man. If he doesn’t respect the mother of his children, what can the rest of us expect?

    1. And she think’s it’s more of a generational thing – that people that old tend to frown on Public Displays of Affection. I’m with you, I like to see it. The Biden’s are even more that way – they seem icapable of being near each other without having their arms around each other.

      Doesn’t mean squat in terms of how good a president they will be (Bill Clinton had his arms around every woman except Hillary) – but it is nice to see.

  45. Overall I thought Obama won this debate by decision, whereas I rated the first two as more or less draws, for many of the same reasons others have stated above.  The main negative is that very little new ground was broken on policy issues, other than the discussions of abortion and education reform at the end.  I will comment on that separately.

    McC came across as mean and just plain wrong-headed.  Obama responded directly and factually to the attacks–his response to the Acorn/Ayers attack was the smack-down of the night, and his line that McC’s focus on that “says more about your campaign than it does about me” was my zinger of the night–and by contrast Obama articulated his policy views more clearly and forcefully than previously.  

    My dad said that McC seemed to be mostly preaching to the choir of the right wing base, and I almost wonder if what McC is doing at this point is that he knows he can’t win, he is only trying to shore up the base and discourage undecided voters from voting at all in an effort to protect down-ticket races.

    Interesting side-light: watching Charlie Rose the discussion among the pundit array (D Brooks, G Will, Doris Kearns-Goodwin, M Halperin, some Repub strategist woman) was what are Obama’s personal characteristics that will help him succeed as President–the unspoken premise was that the election is already decided except for the voting.  But you better believe I’ll be out there helping GOTV.

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