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October 06, 2008 03:38 PM UTC

Monday Open Thread

  • 126 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“Fortunately for serious minds, a bias recognized is a bias sterilized.”

–Benjamin Haydon

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126 thoughts on “Monday Open Thread”

  1. But he knows what the double reverse Bradley effect times nine is.

    Because I’m so cool, I’m watching a tivo’d “This Week” and Stephanopolous said that one of the ways the polls may be “undercounting” is that they aren’t counting all of the people who won’t vote for Obama because he’s black. Nonsense. The people who aren’t voting for Obama “because he’s black” have undoubtedly already told pollsters they’re not voting for Obama. If there’s much undercounting because of race, it’s overwhelmingly because non-racist people are afraid to tell pollsters they’re not voting for the black guy for fear of people like Stephanopolous calling them racist.

    And, if there are racists who might be costing Obama the election, they’re Democrats.

    I don’t even know where to begin.

        1. You cannot use Barack’s full name given to him by his parents unless you are a racist.

          What??

          You are a nut.  I think your glass is half full of shit.

              1. Made by anyone who has a routine habit of using the middle name of each person he or she makes reference to, and had such a habit before senator Obama came along.

                Anyone else who chooses to mention senator Obama’s middle name and no one else’s can feign shock at the response, but it is nothing more than feigning.

                1. But I think there’s been an overreaction to people using it.  It’s on his birth certificate.

                  PS People (not you, 76) are fucking idiots.

          2. COMPLETELY full of shit.

            Thankfully, on November 5th, you’ll be gone and leave us to have reasonable conversations.

            You won’t be missed. You’re effect on this site has been that of a bug on a windshield. Annoying, and easily wiped away.

    2. the point of the poll that brought up the Bradley effect in the first place?  It was a poll of Democrats, not Republicans.

      Here’s one of the reasons Goldberg might be reacting.  Do you think this ‘analysis’ from the AP is accurate?

      WASHINGTON – By claiming that Democrat Barack Obama is “palling around with terrorists” and doesn’t see the U.S. like other Americans, vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin targeted key goals for a faltering campaign.

      And though she may have scored a political hit each time, her attack was unsubstantiated and carried a racially tinged subtext that John McCain himself may come to regret.

      To me, that’s hogwash.  Obama is open to criticism particularly regarding someone who he has politically and personally associated with who happened to attack his own country with explosives and maintains that it was a good thing to do.  That’s troubling to me.

      I know the NYT did a fluff piece about the connection with Ayers, but there are big problems with it.  Nevertheless, Palin’s criticism has nothing to do with race at all.  She said nothing remotely racial, and I’m pretty sensitive to that kind of stuff.  At this point, any criticism of Obama seems to bring out the race card, and it’s frustrating.

      2. Then so is G. Gordon Liddy.

        Ayers and Obama were on the board for a school project, and Ayers held a fundraiser for Obama’s state senate campaign.

        G. Gordon Liddy is McCain’s close personal friend, and they have maintained a close relationship for many years.

        Liddy has acknowledged preparing to kill someone during the Ellsberg break-in “if necessary”; plotting to murder journalist Jack Anderson; plotting with a “gangland figure” to murder Howard Hunt to stop him from cooperating with investigators; plotting to firebomb the Brookings Institution; and plotting to kidnap “leftist guerillas” at the 1972 Republican National Convention — a plan he outlined to the Nixon administration using terminology borrowed from the Nazis. (The murder, firebombing, and kidnapping plots were never carried out; the break-ins were.) During the 1990s, Liddy reportedly instructed his radio audience on multiple occasions on how to shoot Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agents and also reportedly said he had named his shooting targets after Bill and Hillary Clinton.

      3. carries a racial subtext that you will come to regret LB.  It’s the I’m pretty sesitive to that kind of stuff (code words for I am a racist).

      4. I don’t think the word is racism, I think it is biased.  Many people do not believe they are racist – that implies hate.

        I do not believe most of America is hateful to other races.  I do believe that most of America has misconceptions and believes that people of another race are different.  An example is calling Obama’s background “exotic”.  He was raised in Kansas.  

        I have had people ask me what it is like to have a White Mom or Black Dad, “That must be really strange”.  I don’t know what is strange about it – we had dinner at 6, they dropped me off at school in the morning, I watched cartoons, went to my prom – all American stuff. Just like the average White family.

        New York Times

        October 5, 2008

        http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10…

        Racism Without Racists

        By Nicholas D. Kristof – Op-Ed Columnist

        One of the fallacies this election season is that if Barack Obama is paying

        an electoral price for his skin tone, it must be because of racists.

        On the contrary, the evidence is that Senator Obama is facing what scholars

        have dubbed “racism without racists.”

        The racism is difficult to measure, but a careful survey completed last month by Stanford University, with The Associated Press and Yahoo, suggested that Mr. Obama’s support would be about six percentage points higher if he were white. That’s significant but surmountable.

        Most of the lost votes aren’t those of dyed-in-the-wool racists…

        Rather, most of the votes that Mr. Obama actually loses belong to well-meaning whites who believe in racial equality and have no objection to electing a black person as president – yet who discriminate unconsciously.

        Experiment after Experiment

        For decades, experiments have shown that even many whites who earnestly believe in equal rights will recommend hiring a white job candidate more often than a person with identical credentials who is black.

        In the experiments, the applicant’s folder sometimes presents the person as white,

        sometimes as black, but everything else is the same. The white person thinks that he or she is selecting on the basis of nonracial factors like experience.

        Research suggests that whites are particularly likely to discriminate

        against blacks when choices are not clear-cut and competing arguments are flying about – in other words, in ambiguous circumstances rather like an electoral campaign.

        For example, when the black job candidate is highly qualified, there is no

        discrimination. Yet in a more muddled gray area where reasonable people could disagree, unconscious discrimination plays a major role.

        1. by all those people who would hire a black person just to promote “equality” – even if that person of color is NOT qualified.

          Many white people have been discriminated against by well intentioned HR people who just want to hire people of diversity – instead of qualified people.

          In other words there are a bunch of people voting for Obama just because he is black.  And there are several people who are discriminating against McCain because he is old.

          Age discrimination is also a reality you must consider.  

          So, all in all I guess it is a wash.

            1. …but I’d be more inclined to vote for a black person, assuming they shared my ideological bent.

              A unique perspective along with some common sense would do that office some good.  

              Unfortunately, Obama is not that guy for me.  Powell, yes.  Thomas Sowell?  In a heartbeat. Condi?  Yep.

              1. If Powell had a backbone, Bush probably could not have lied us into a war that has damaged us, probably irreversibly, while empowering ALL of our enemies. Loyalty to the team over your country is not my idea of character.

                Condi was a completely incompetent security adviser who got kicked upstairs to her present near non-entity status as SOS.  She should be teaching a nice little seminar somewhere.

                Sowell is just a writer, a blowhard or genius depending on your views.

                Not one of them is world leader material, LB.  That’s just pathetic. Of course McSame isn’t either and he’s as white as the living dead. As for Palin, I wouldn’t vote for her to be president of a chapter of the PTA, much less next in line for leader of the free world.  

        2. A famous experiment had college students grade essays. The essays were identical except that one was supposedly written by John Williams and another by Joan Williams.  John beat Joan by an average of a letter grade and female students were just as likely as males to give the higher grade to the male name on the identical essay.    

        3. Of course we are different!  And it goes beyond skin color and physical features.  It is the dominant cultures unique to every race and ethnic group that sets us apart one from another.

          Sure, we may all bleed red, and seek love, but we don’t eat the same foods, have the same attitudes about education, or have the same myths.

          Denying our differences is just as bad as using them for division in our political processes.  

          1. All of my Black friends have bacon and eggs for breakfast, eat hamburgers and hot dogs and pizza.

            Sure we all have ethnic food, but it is not a mainstay in most American diets.

            In my life, my Black, Latino and Irish friends all share the same food.

            OK, Chitterlings and pickled pigs feet are a little tough to stomach! LOL But none of us elitist Black people would eat them either.

            1. And it’s not just chitterlings and blood color.

              It’s values, where do people spend their money, what kind of cars do they prefer, what is the role of women in the sub-culture, hair styles, and the thousands of things that one group prefers and another shuns or at least does not hear Pavlov’s bell. An AME church is wholly different from an Episcopalian church from a Church of God from a Catolica en Espanol.  All Christian.

              I have two grocery stores.  One, it’s obvious, is patronized by middle and upper class folks, mostly white.  A few blacks, a few homeless, a few Hispanic. One and a half miles north, near to Sarasota’s black community, is another store and another world.  Fifty percent black customers or more, most employees are black, the parking lot shows the relative poverty of these customers.  The products on the shelves are mostly the same as the first store, but a lot of them aren’t.  Why? Not because of skin color or DNA, but culture.  

              (A funny aside. A few years back I went to that latter store, one item I bought was mustard greens.  My checkout person was a young black man.  He asked me what he was holding and I told him.  I thought it pretty sad that an old(ish) white man had to tell a black man what mustard greens were!)

              Cultures are what really make us different!  Not DNA!

            2. not just members of blocks that can all be lumped together.  There is more variation between individuals within the various boxes we put them in, be it racial, ethnic or religious, than there is between the boxes.

              You can hang out with nothing but people from your particular group and you will still see all kinds: good, bad, indifferent, smart and idiotic, brave and cowardly, energetic and lethargic, honorable and snakes in the grass. Even legitimate “averages” don’t tell you much about any individual in a group.

              Noting cultural variation is not the same as seeing people of your own group as individuals while not being able to see people of another group as individuals in the same way. And by the way, I  realize we all do that to some extent. That doesn’t make it one of humanities best traits.  

      5. The Bradley effect was predicted to be a factor long before the Democratic primaries, so while that’s the only time it could have shown up for Obama, there’s no reason to say (as Goldberg says) that the only people who would vote against Obama for racial reasons are Democrats. That’s just dumb.

        The Ayers stuff is not racial, I think, but the framing as, “He doesn’t see America the way you and I do” does have some racist connotations. It says Obama’s not normal, that he’s not a real American, etc.

        You can say, “Well they said the same sorts of things about Kerry,” that he was different, but that was clearly a class-warfare sort of thing. It was his richness that made him different. (Side note: kind of weird how “Eat the rich” was a prominent Republican tactic back then.) What makes Obama different from you and me? His name? The fact that he lived in other countries growing up? The fact that he’s black?

        It may not speak to you that way, but it’s not meant for you. It’s meant for people who have something they’re trying to hide, a little bit of discomfort with him that they know they shouldn’t and wish they didn’t have. The ones who were going to swallow it and vote for him anyway, but now are just a little bit less sure. It’s meant to work on a slightly-below-conscious level.

        I’m not making this up. You can read this stuff explicitly from Lee Atwater, who helped pioneer it.

        I think what you may be missing from the AP story is that you’re focusing on the Ayers connection, which is not (in the AP reporter’s view) the most important part. It’s the more subtle framing of “not seeing the country like you and I” which has the subtext.

        Regardless, this will all be irrelevant once the Jeremiah Wright ads start airing, and we see some good old-fashioned uncoded racism.

    4. … then someone else reported that it may be just the opposite. The folks who don’t want to vote for Barack because he’s black already have a “safe,” acceptable out: they’re voting for McCain because he’s [insert non-race qualification here].

      It may be just the opposite: There may be people in traditionally conservative and even race-bound areas that are afraid to tell their peers and neighbors that they support Obama because they think he’ll do a better job protecting their jobs and paychecks. So there may actually be undercounting of votes FOR Obama.

      Or it’ll all come out in the wash.

      2. it should have gone through on Monday….then world crisis would not have been triggered.

        Politicians that voted no last Monday should have trouble sleeping. They value their careers more than the USA

          1. It is a result of a housing bubble where houses were inflated by poor lending standards enforced by the government.

            ACORN would attack banks as racist if they didn’t give loans in economically disadvantaged neighborhoods even if those loans were unable to be serviced.

            I read a book 15 years ago that detailed this failure was in the making.  It is the result of an economies growth fueled entirely by debt.

            As soon as valuations come down on the assets that securitize these debts – there is no other choice but bankruptcy.

            1. There is the whole host of phony financial instruments that have nothing to do with any affirmative action lending.  You really are barking up the wrong tree with this.  And you were accusing LB of being racist.

          2. Listen to some crap?

            Why don’t you study economics, globalisation, and the impact of derivatives.

            You probably have no idea what a derivative is, nor macro-economics.

            I’t s people like you that think that a trillion dollar loss, failing banks in Engalnd, Germany , and Japan, are all good for the American economy.

            1. I’m thrilled about my now nonexistent Roth IRA.

              You nailed me, Ray. I’m a bumbling idiot who is reveling in the destruction of the American economy. I am happy that unemployment is soaring and that the taxpayers are on the hook for $700 billion.

              Thank you for your kind assumptions about my personality and motives, Ray. How would I muddle through life without your wisdom?

              1. Well, I’m not full of BS, Thilly Wabbit.

                Congressman knew this bill was needed or something very similar, but didn’t want to face the 527 blitz attacking them before elecetion day. It was a clear case of self interest over country. A trillion dolars were wiped out along with investor confidence and crated a domiono effect on world banks.

                Democrats and Reublicans both were guilty here.

                I’m down hard in this market too.

                Buffet in particular has been very aggressive and I believe he uses Moody’s to assist him in take over targets (he owns roughly 30% of the rating company)I could be wrong, but I certainly got caught having Moody’s wipe out a rally in a Buffet targeted entity.

                It isn’t the first time.

                The market has so much manipulation going on that the SEC I see laughing at small time stock swindlers (what’s small? 50 million or less?) like Dr’ Evil’s victims laugh in the Austin powers films.

                I’m crusty at times and don’t mean to offend. Perhpas I’m too quick to perceive personal criticism rather than a differing point of view lately due to my own insecurity about the markets.

    2. roll up his sleeves, and head back to Washington to broker a solution to the falling stock market. His efforts were so effective a couple of weeks ago.

  5. Ok, I’ve ping Udall a bit for not having town halls with Q&A. And so what is he doing this Wednesday?

    This Wednesday, October 8th, Forward Colorado,

    the Colorado Democratic Party’s coordinated campaign,

    will host U.S. Senate Candidate Mark Udall.

    Mark will be sharing his vision for Colorado followed by a brief Q&A.

    Wednesday, October 8th at 5:00 PM

    New Longmont Campaign Headquarters

    372 Main St, Longmont

  7. That was easy.

    John McCain would pay for his health plan with major reductions to Medicare and Medicaid, a top aide said, in a move that independent analysts estimate could result in cuts of $1.3 trillion over 10 years to the government programs.

    …

    Mr. Holtz-Eakin said the Medicare and Medicaid changes would improve the programs and eliminate fraud, but he didn’t detail where the cuts would come from. “It’s about giving them the benefit package that has been promised to them by law at lower cost,” he said.

    There’s that magical trillion dollars in wasteful spending and pork that McCain will find you tomorrow. Again. Does McCain understand what a budget is? Normal people already deal with getting by on basic necessities; does he think everyone could do fine just cutting their budget by a third? What a jackass.

    1. you don’t get that super-cool sticker…

      That’s why I like to vote early. In person voting always makes me feel like I’m casting a real ballot.

      1. I remember being disappointed last year when I didn’t get one, but apparently they’ve changed policy.

        Unlike David, I’m not mailing mine in. I’m dropping it off in person at the Clerk & Recorder’s office. I normally trust the Postal Service, but I just want to be absolutely sure this time.

        2. Especially since the office in Littleton was about three minutes away.

          One time I saw an old man hobbling with a cane into the building carrying two ballots. I presume one for his wife in the car.  Very touching.  

  9. had the extreme displeasure of driving through Colo Springs on Saturday on N. Academy from I-25 down to E Platte. Every single gas station from north to south had the exact same gas price: $3.39(and 9/10, of course).  Every one.  There wasn’t a single gas station along the entire 9 mile stretch that didn’t have the same price.  That’s market collusion, not a coincidence.  Somebody oughta investigate.  

      1. really?  25 or so stations all different branding, different suppliers, different transport chain economics, and they all settle on the exact same price?  sorry, that’s not competition, that’s market manipulation.

  10. The Republican internal polling and some outside polls show Obama and McCain in a statistical dead heat.

    If Obama takes the county, a first since 1932.  And if he is a very likely winner here, it’s happening all over the country.

    Unfortunately, Christine Jennings, D, is way behind law suit laden Vern Buchanan. She is the candidate in 2006 who had 18,000 possible votes disappear into thin air.  Despite several million dollars of investigation at all levels, no one ever found a smoking gun.  Just statistical improbability.  

    1. But where’s Sarasota County? Colorado? Wyoming? Florida?

      I understand Dems are within 1,000 registrations or so of outnumbering Reps in Arapahoe County. Never thought I’d see the day.

      2. I left CO last September after being quite active as a Dem and working in the capitol.  Arrived here October 9 last year to take care of my parents, mostly Dad who had colon and liver cancers.  Thought I’d be here six months or so.

        We’ll be celebrating his 91st on the 20th of this month.  

        You can take the boy outta Colorado, but not Colorado outta the boy.  

    2. Untethering the Godzilla from Wasilla to wreck havoc on America with her slimy personal attacks instead of addressing the issues Americans really care about is just running up the white flag of surrender.  Desperate days for the McFail’n campaign.  The failed Republican economic policies will not go away by just talking about something that happened when Senator Obama was 8 years old.  McCain simply does not want Americans to focus on real issues.  If he continues down this personal attack road, look for more 527 activity pointing out McCain’s unstable temperment, his health issues and the very real possibility that his age or health could prevent him from serving out a presidential term, leaving our nation to the Godzilla from Wasilla.  Or as BOC put it:  

      “History shows again and again, how nature points out the folly of men”.

    3. If Obama could win, there could actually be some hope for Sarasota after all.

      I was born and raised there. The only time I was a registered Republican was when I lived there. I only did it because my dad told me that there were no Democrats in Sarasota that ran for any offices.

        1. But he wrote a column that was satire, and most of the article was about Democrats that weren’t going to vote for him because he’s black.

          1. If I say, “Jews have such big noses that their snot frequently ends up in orbit,” that might be funny (especially so if you’re anti-Semitic), but it’s far from satire. It’s using a negative stereotype to insult people.

            If I say, paraphrasing Jon Stewart, “If anyone other than Jews controlled the media, they’d probably get better press in it,” that’s satire. It’s making fun of the idea of Jewish media control.

            Satire usually uses irony and usually has as its purpose to attack something specific. For this to be satire, the writer would have to be criticizing racism rather than Obama. But clearly he’s trying to insult Obama.

            Perhaps I can make this clearer, but there is an important distinction between just insult and satire.

            (P.S. Yes I’m Jewish enough to talk about the above.)  

    1. October 9th, 2007: DJIA reaches record high point of 14,164.53

      October 6th, 2008: DJIA drops 547 points and dips below 10,000 for the first time in four years.

      In less than one year the Dow lost 1/3 of its value.

        2. You are correct that if you are properly diversified and invested for your time horizon even these major shocks should be managable.

          However, we do have structural problems which have been growing over time and people should be freakin out about that.

          Even without the pointless war in Iraq, the deficit under Bush would have grown.  In an expanding economy, starting from surpluses, the deficit should not have been growing.

  13. The LA chapter president of the National Organization for Women –

    ENDORSES SARAH PALIN!!!

    Another Hillary Democrat woman joins me, Nancy L Baldwin.

    It isn’t too late.  You can join with the hundreds of thousands of women who wanted to see Hillary win – but gladly will support McCain Palin.

        1. but I just can’t figure out why you donated $2300 to McCain, on three separate occasions, and then got $2300 refunded to you on four separate occasions.

          That just doesn’t make any sense to me.  

            1. because my donations exceed the maximum allowed by law.  That could be another reason.  

              But, no – lets go with crazy assumptions like KKK affiliations, or McCain is somehow paying people off…

              You guys are just nuts.  Honestly.

              Oh, and who said I never donated to Hillary?  You think that site is really all that accurate?

              Try looking up your own donations and see how many actually show up correctly.

  14. I don’t post under my own legal name. Why? Well for one thing I’m job hunting and while on the one hand I would not want to be hired by the sort of person who’d hold my political views against me on the other I do not necessarily want my political activities to be the first thing that someone name searching me would find.

    And given the unusual qualities of my last name, about 3,050 other people in the US have the same last name as me or about 0.001% of the population, it would be fairly easy to find me even with the common qualities of Matthew as my first name. Especially since of the 60 people in Colorado with the same last name as me none of them have the same first name.

    But Precint854 seems a bad choice for an ongoing pseudonym as I may very well move away from this little 120 acre precinct. And redistricting will happen in four years as well. So I’m considering a name like MountSherman, MtSherman, MountElbert, or something.

    Opinions?

      1. But I’m a bookkeeper with experience in A/P and payroll accounting. I’m getting on with account temps and checking with banks since that’s where I have experience.

        Plus I’m down here in Denver. There are buses, but I shouldn’t like to travel every day to Boulder. One of my friends does that and it really eats into his free time.

        Matthew

        2. When you get a job, if they need a quicker & easier reporting system – give them out name!

          And good luck. I have a feeling there’s going to be lots more jobs for accountants at banks as they figure out what is going on.

        3. Most of the time I was fine with it.  A good time to nap or write or read.  The intercity bus went straight, oh, Bellevue.  It was the little puppy that zigged and zagged through the center that took forever.  

          1. What you need is someone to hire you because of your political views.  Maybe you could get the Obama campaign to hire you to blog for them or something.

            Otherwise any other employer would be wasting their money on you.

      2. Last year over on KOS there was a problem with a politician doing double duty on postings.

        I decided that as a politician I should stand with my comments, and the way to do that was use my real name.  

        It is important for anybody running for office or in an elected office to stand by their writings. If you are afraid to use your name, believing it is good to hide behind a false wall, you should not be in politics in any form.

        As for others, even trolls, you are not elected so I do not care if you use your name or not.  I do like creativity though, and some of the trolls have been lacking in that skill.

        1. but I decided to post my name because I was offering such specifics on the bailout that I thought it was important that people be able to vet me if they so choose.

        2. I figure my name does need to be a secret, but I remember when google thought I was notable. My blogging was not something I was at all ashamed of, but it wasn’t professional either. And when I was fired for being gay and not cautious enough about it I started using pseudonyms.

          But that was a long time ago and I was surprised to find that after about five years search engines have mostly forgotten about my real name. I guess the hysteria about teens never being able to escape their past is a bit of that. A young person would just need to change their behavior for long enough and eventually so many more notable things will happen that the information will be mostly buried.

    1. He also said on the Colbert report that the cause of this was all Bill Clinton’s fault.  The IBD line that has been making its way around conservative circles.

      No real evidence, but it helps neocons sleep at night.

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