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October 31, 2005 09:00 AM UTC

Referenda C&D Going Down?

  • 92 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

The word today from many insiders close to the YES campaign on Referenda C&D is that the measure appears on its way to failure. Poll numbers have apparently weakened over the course of the last week, and many insiders close to the campaign are preparing for the worst.

The weather doesn’t look like it will cooperate for the YES campaign, either. It is thought that low turnout would benefit the YES campaign more than the NO campaign, but tomorrow looks like it will be sunny and clear…just not for the YES folks.

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92 thoughts on “Referenda C&D Going Down?”

  1. If you look at the fundraising numbers (Yes on C and D has only outspent Caldara and his allies by a factor of 2.75 to one), the demographics (off year election with Denver doing precinct polling, not mail voting), and the polling (never got above 50%) it sure does look like C and D are going down.

    However, the Club for Growth had some polls last week that showed C and D heading for victory. They attributed it to Hickenlooper’s star power. Could Hick’s luck have finally run out?

  2. Gotta admit, hearing that C & D may go down in flames doesn’t break my heart in the least bit.

    We can and should expect our legislators to provide us with a better plan than the old “Give us more money and we can fix all of your woes”.

    No on C, yes on D!

  3. Wait a minute, you mean you can solve problems without money.  I have a pothole in front of my house, can you come over and fix it without money.  This must be that holistic guide to running a state.  I think you should run on that platform.  The whiniest generation could really care less what shape they leave our state in, just get away from their money.  The me generation shows why they were stoned most of the seventies and now they want to tell my generation how they don?t have any money to leave our state the way they found it.  These people are truly the most selfish breed I have ever encountered.  Caldara and the Independence Institute haven’t been down at the capital working on a common sense approach because in their world there isn’t a problem.  Starving our state is no big deal to them because they have got theirs so the hell with everyone else.  If C and D truly doesn?t pass I hope we get our act together to pass something to make this the type of state we can all be proud of.  I expect Caldara to be down at the capital everyday working hard to craft something he can support…but for some reason I just don’t see it happening.  He is probably going to keep on enjoying his 60,000 dollar salary at the “charity” he runs with the same tax status as the Red Cross.  Maybe we should send him over to the Red Cross to do some real charity work since he wants to be treated like them.  Somehow I don?t see the leader of the me generation doing any charity work.

  4. Matrow, Hick’s luck hasn’t run out.  The C&D campaign didn’t use him enough.  The ad was great – but I heard people outside the metro area didn’t get much of a chance to see it.  Too bad.

  5. If it goes down we’ll have a mess, no doubt. But it will also be interesting to see who in the center and on the right will go dining on each other and who will just eat their own livers. Hang on for the show.

  6. Matrow, Hick’s luck hasn’t run out.  The C&D campaign didn’t use him enough.  The ad was great – but I heard people outside the metro area didn’t get much of a chance to see it.  Too bad.

  7. Gosh, I thought that unprecedented front-page editorial in the DP would turn the tide! 

    The real question is whether or not Owensmanoffenlooper will support securitization, holding the budget neutral until next year, which makes the C proponents look like liars based upon their present scare tactics.  Or will they actually cut the budget by the supposed $500 million that they’ve been promising?  Either way, they’re in trouble!

  8. Lede editorial in today’s WSJ calls for defeat of C&D. Is this post a ploy to get opponents to stop working against C&D, or what?

    Am I suspicious? Yep!

  10. Basically the Pro C&D campaign was late getting started, the ads were horrible and there was limited input from the peanut gallery allowed. (I know, I tried to help for months but finally gave up after being told the people running the campaign did not want to hear from us (the grassroots)  In a major way it reminded some of us of last years Kerry campaign. 
      It really is a shame that the campaign smelled. After last week legislative meeting results of what the next session will be like there are a lot of people who would do well to move into Caldera’s house so he could take care of them.

  11. Rumors always fly the week, the day before, and the day of an election.  Rumors don’t vote though.  For example, last year on election day, rumors swirled around the Salazar campaign that insiders said Kerry was leading in Florida, Ohio, and that the election was basically wrapped up.  If rumors won elections, Kerry would be president today.

    Looking at the most recent polling data, the election is basically a toss up and whoever got their side to mail their ballots in already and gets their people to vote tomorrow will win.  Turnout will decide this election, not rumors.

    Moreover, your comment about the weather makes little sense.  First, half of the state is a mail ballot so weather will have no effect on thoe ballots and second, the two largest counties, El Paso and Denver, will both be equally effected by the weather.  Good weather in both counties will mean that more people will vote from both counties. 

    I, for one, as the poll asked earlier today, am completely comfortable betting the keys to my car that C and D will pass. I have faith that the people of Colorado will not be misled into voting these measures down.

  13. The Wall Street Journal “cares” about Colorado enough to devote an editorial to axeing Referenda C&D?  And the lede at that?  Wow.  I wonder when Norquist got a majority stake in the nation’s business paper.

  14. No one suggested cutting $500 million from the existing budget, Champa.  The cut is projected at $365 million.  Most of the difference between that and the estimated first year yield of C would have been restoring previous cuts in highway funding, expansion of health care programs  and perhaps buttressing higher education a bit.  Obviously, without C, there will be no restoration of highway funding.

  15. ?I have a pothole in front of my house, can you come over and fix it without money” 

    I love how Mike Collins is pushing C & D. The point is he doesn’t get it.  Sure you need money to fix a pothole and maintain the state’s infrastructure.  You need money for plowing, police, fire, and education too. 

    The problem is that the government wants to spend all of the money on their pet projects that keep their constituents happy but ignore the essentials.  Then, when the government needs more money, it doesn’t parade out the pet projects, it parades out the essentials and  say that unless you approve a tax increase your house will burn to the ground because there will be no firefighters and you won’t be able to get to work because there will be no roads. 

    The bottom line is that many supporters of C & D instill fear into people in an effort to save their pet projects.

    And Mike, making the government live within its means is not selfish.  If you cannot realize that you are ignorant.

  16. Marshall,
    Your rhetoric is why you are not convincing anyone of the validity of your point.  All your tirade has managed to do is state that you believe anyone against Ref C is either a whiner or selfish.  There is no validity to your arguement that we want to starve the state and that we don’t care what happens.  The real point here is that we don’t see this as a solution.

    As a citizen and a taxpayer, by voting NO on referendum C, I hope I am sending my message to the capitol that I expect results out of the state legislature, not an ill-conceived idea that treats the symptoms of the problem in the short term, but does not address the cause.  If the cause of the state’s financial problems is not addressed, we will be discussing this same issue for years to come.

  17. I’m not generally a vindictive type, but if there is any Constitutionality to targeting projects in districts voting against Ref. C&D, it would be somehow satisfying to see those projects up first on the chopping block.

    The Governor’s budget office points out that an across-the-board cut of targetable agencies next year will be approximately 20%.  20% of prisons, 20% of higher education, 20% of road work, 20% of Medicaid.  No funding for police and firemen’s state-contracted retirement.  No money to fix unsafe public schools.

    For that, I think targetted defunding might be worth it.  Maybe, if I was having a Bad Day.

  18. I don’t view higher education, better roads, and health care programs for the disabled a “pet” project Jonathan.  Also, I don’t view a pension for our fire fighters and police or funding for our children’s K-12 education a “pet” project.

    The cuts in our budget aren’t occurring because the legislature is out of contrrol, the cuts are happening because we’re locked at a recessionary spending level that only grows at population plus inflation.  Moreover, certian costs — higher education, insurance rates, and prison populations, for example, grow at a faster than the TABOR formula.  So, while those programs take more and more of the budget, key programs like the ones I mentioned above are cut back.

    I’m going to call on Jonathan, tonight, to cut $365 million dollars from the budget just from “pet” programs.  You should also make suggestions for the following years because the cuts will just be more pronounced.

  23. Let me see………they have our tax money….are supposed to give it back…..but they want to keep it because WE sure don’t need it……and they never have enough no matter what…..don’t know if you can call it a tax increase or not Owensisafag…….don’t matter what you call it…….bend over and grab your ankles though if it passes…..we’ll be paying for this for years to come. Of course it is in our best interest you see……..
    No on C&D please

  25. Non caring……….that is a stretch. Just because we are making a stand to say enough is enough we are non caring. Try again. You can do better than that.

  27. voyageur – I know that you can read my post but you obviously can’t understand.  It is really a basic concept, I am sorry you cannot comprehend it.

    Phoenix, obviously you are vindictive, but I have no problem with you cutting programs in my area of the state first.  At least then you would be able to see that people can survive without government social programs, in fact people have done it for hundreds of years in America.

    Todd, I don’t view roads as pet projects either, as long as they are not handed out like the “bridge to nowhere”.  As for programs for the disabled, I know that you will say that I am not compassionate, but it is not the governments job to take care of the disabled, if it were the founding fathers of the U.S. and Colorado would have put it into the Constitution.  I personally give money directly to non profit organizations that help those in need.  Medicare and Medicaid are great spots to start cutting. 

    As for all the postings that make personal attacks on those who do not support or C & D, what you say shows a lot about your character.

  28. Voyageur,

    Legislative staff are projecting nearly $470m in cuts.  You are citing OSPB’s projections at $365.  Either way, I think you (gov’s office) and they (leg. staff) are exaggerating for effect, and as an Owens spin doctor you are showing your cards:

    Note that in my previous post that I didn’t say the proponents would have to follow through on their scare tactics claiming cuts of $500m from the “existing” budget.  I just said $500m in cuts.  That’s because the budget will grow next year, but the 23/Medicaid spending increases will grow so fast that they will cannibalize other programs.  Nice try on the “existing” budget spin.  Reminds me of your word-parsed add about how C won’t touch your “income” tax refunds.

  30. Saying social programs are unneccesary?

    Hmmm…let’s relate C & D to the Katrina Hurricane.  President Bush, obviously conservative in his views of social programs, came out saying that the private sector needed to step up to the plate and give money to the Red Cross and various organizations.  I did that, giving $25 and later $15.  As someone who is a 23-year old college student, I felt I had done my part.  Yet, the federal government still had to step in and Bush (remember conservative) proposed approximately $200 billion in government spending to help the areas affected.  I think that, in of itself, is a testament to the fact that whether you give to non-profits or not, Jonathon, there are certain situations where government programs are needed.  We can’t build our own roads, fund our military, or help the disabled on an individual basis.  Many of these projects\issues are bigger than any one person, and while I admire your generousity, I think you need to take a step back, look at social programs, and re-evaluate why they are there.  They truly serve a purpose.

  31. Citizens of Colorado, today the eyes of the Nation are on YOU.

    Will you vote yes for taxes believing you will benefit from a tax increase, or will you vote no, believing citizens can better spend their own money for the benefit of the economy.

    Once a State crosses the threshold where more people vote believing taxes will benefit themselves and their cause there is no turning back.

  33. Grover in da house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Lets make sure there is not more State government after tomorrow people!  The nation believes you Coloradoans will vote NO!

  38. Gecko, no, they need State services.  They need the help of the government.  Will you help them with food stamps?  With orthopedic devices?  With housing assistance?  Will you build a prison to keep the fellons away from your wife and children?  What roads and bridges have you erected lately, Sir?

    VOTE YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  42. Cuba, who is they? Why can’t THEY get a job so THEY don’t need food stamps? Get insurance so THEY can get medical attention? Basically get off THEIR ass and stop depending on the government. At the rate some of you are pushing we will be just like the Soviet Union. Dependant on the government for everything. And look how well that lasted……….

  43. Gecko,

    “More individual responsibility.” you write

    *to build your own roads and bridges?
    *to make sure your children don’t have a disability or are healthy when they are born?
    *to be rich enough to pay for school on your own?
    *Etc.

    Vote YES.

  45. Gecko, a person that is mentally retarded is not able to get a job and get insurance.  You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, Sir.  There are a lot of people out there, less fortunate then you, that are not healthy enough to work and be self-sufficient like you are. 

    Vote YES!

  50. If C&D carry, Dems will win in 06 and 08 because real Republicans will say they were betrayed by party leaders and to heck with it. We’ll stay home.

  54. Gecko, I respect whatever vote you made, Sir.  I would just like to know how people that are not as fortunate as you are supposed to survive without state assistance?  Should they just die?  Are we Nazi’s?  Is that Caldara guy the new Hitler?

  57. There are more than enough goverenment assistant programs out there. In fact there are more than needed. I work right next to the ones in El Paso county. Most of the people going there for handouts drive nicer vehicles than I do. And I have been in many of their homes for my job. Again, many have nicer things than me but don’t work.
    NO on C&D……..

  58. The thing that all of you against C and D forget is that this is an investment in Colorado’s future.  We’ve neglected key social and transportation programs for years because of the tight restraints of TABOR and this is our opportunity to right the one glitch in an otherwise beneficial law.  It is good to allow citizens control over how they’re taxed and how their money is spent.  It is interesting, however, that EVERY TABOR proposal after Colorado’s removes the rachet effect.  Other states — Wisconsin, California, Ohio to name a few — have seen the damage that the irrational ratchet does.  It one thing to contrain government spending, it is another to attempt to kill government as the rachet does.

    This is a simple question.  Do we want to allow the government to keep a little bit of the money that we’re ALREADY paid in taxes to fund important programs like education, health care, and roads or do we want those programs to go away.  Do we want our roads to crumble, our children’s education to suffer, and do we want working families of Colorado to have to spend thousands and thousands of more dollars to send their kids to college?  Or, do we want a state that has a functioning transportation system, a well-funded K-12 program, and affordable community and public universities? I know what I want and I know what Bill Owens, Hank Brown, Tim Foster, and many other Republicans have realized after their service in the government.  TABOR has a glitch and it needs to be corrected. Tomorrow’s vote is not one brought about because government has gone awry.  Tomorrow’s vote is about helping TABOR make sense and allowing for our state to catch up to others.

    The thing that frustrates me about the other side in this debate is that they act like C and D is a personal affront to TABOR.  They’re not.  This is exactly the process envisioned by Doug Bruce when TABOR was passed.  The government, either state or local, needs to come up with a proposal and approach taxpayers to keep more of their money. And, while it hasn’t been tried as the local level, hundreds of times local government entities have approached the taxpayers asking them for money to build schools, fix roads, and do other municipal projects, and hundreds of times (I believe the pass rate is over 70%), taxpayers have allowed them to keep the money.

    I could leave you with statistics of where Colorado currently is compared to other states but I won’t.  All I’m going to say is that tomorrow Colorado has a chance to fix problems and move forward.  Vote Yes on C and D.

  59. The thing that all of you against C and D forget is that this is an investment in Colorado’s future.  We’ve neglected key social and transportation programs for years because of the tight restraints of TABOR and this is our opportunity to right the one glitch in an otherwise beneficial law.  It is good to allow citizens control over how they’re taxed and how their money is spent.  It is interesting, however, that EVERY TABOR proposal after Colorado’s removes the rachet effect.  Other states — Wisconsin, California, Ohio to name a few — have seen the damage that the irrational ratchet does.  It one thing to contrain government spending, it is another to attempt to kill government as the rachet does.

    This is a simple question.  Do we want to allow the government to keep a little bit of the money that we’re ALREADY paid in taxes to fund important programs like education, health care, and roads or do we want those programs to go away.  Do we want our roads to crumble, our children’s education to suffer, and do we want working families of Colorado to have to spend thousands and thousands of more dollars to send their kids to college?  Or, do we want a state that has a functioning transportation system, a well-funded K-12 program, and affordable community and public universities? I know what I want and I know what Bill Owens, Hank Brown, Tim Foster, and many other Republicans have realized after their service in the government.  TABOR has a glitch and it needs to be corrected. Tomorrow’s vote is not one brought about because government has gone awry.  Tomorrow’s vote is about helping TABOR make sense and allowing for our state to catch up to others.

    The thing that frustrates me about the other side in this debate is that they act like C and D is a personal affront to TABOR.  They’re not.  This is exactly the process envisioned by Doug Bruce when TABOR was passed.  The government, either state or local, needs to come up with a proposal and approach taxpayers to keep more of their money. And, while it hasn’t been tried as the local level, hundreds of times local government entities have approached the taxpayers asking them for money to build schools, fix roads, and do other municipal projects, and hundreds of times (I believe the pass rate is over 70%), taxpayers have allowed them to keep the money.

    I could leave you with statistics of where Colorado currently is compared to other states but I won’t.  All I’m going to say is that tomorrow Colorado has a chance to fix problems and move forward.  Vote Yes on C and D.

  60. There is no need for senseless personal attacks here.  We all have our opinions but you shouldn’t resort to calling other people insulting names.

  62. There is no need for senseless personal attacks here.  We all have our opinions but you shouldn’t resort to calling other people insulting names.

  63. You’re right, I totally forgot about that invest in the future thing. I think I’ll take my refund and invest in some government bonds with killer interest rates!  I’ll make money while taxpayers pay it off for decades!!  No on C, Yes on D!!!

  67. Thanks Grover. Enough for me for tonight. I’m an agnostic but if this thing fails tomorrow, I might just go to church. Or at least drive by one on my Titan this Sunday…..

  68. A little early to claim the game is up, but… Good. I thought something was up when Fitzie gave up the Gov race and Gov Bill sent letters around the nation begging forgiveness for his sins.

  70. No on C folks had a honk and wave going tonight out on South Parker and 225. They had something like 18 people there, lot’s of signs, lot’s of waves, kind fun looking. And they were getting lot’s of honks from drivers. I think I saw Stengel and Cairns there, too (who would have thought?!?).

  71. I think I can save the money if C fails. 

    1)Eliminate taxpayer-financed education and truancy laws. 

    2)Deny services to foreign criminals.

    3)Ignore federal mandated healthcare and social services.

    If we do these simple things, we will be in the black for decades to come.

  73. Please vote yes so I can bring the rest of my illegal alien family over. I like sucking up your tax dollars so you can pay more. If you vote yes, then I will have more of your tax dollars. If you vote no, I won’t have anything.

    Bottom line…if you vote No you might as well become a Mexican citizen and then cross the boarder illegally. You would be better off because the vote yes crowd will flush Colorado down the toilet!

  74. Those against C&D seem to be missning a very important point.  Should government live within its’ means? Of course.  But the majority of the money Colorado spends is not by choice, it is either federally mandated, No Child Left Behind or Medicare, or written into the Constitution, Amendment 23.  Where does that leave the rest of the states responcibilities.  Money from C&D will not simply “butress” higher education, it will save it.  Spending on higher ed has been cut in half in the last four years, tuition has skyrocketed, and financial aid has plummeted.  Soon, it will be cheaper to go Harvard than any state run university.  Furthermore, Cutting the buget was done for four years.  Why do you think Colorado is about to be default on its obligations to police and firefighter pensions?  Not because of mismanagement, but because under Republican control, all the legislature could do was postpone its payments and cut everything, except the special interest tax credits provided by TABOR. 

    Bottom line, without C&D, Colorado will be bankrupt, in more than one sense.

  76. mentalmasturbator,

    I think you should run as a Republican representative with that platform.  What voter wouldn’t agree to flushing the American Dream down the toilet by getting rid of public education?  Run Plumber Run!

  77. Cuba,

    You really don’t get it do you.  It is so frustrating trying to explain simple concepts to liberal because you don’t want to use logic or listen to reason.  You don’t want to look at the Constitution and see what government is supposed to do and not do. 

    let’s make sure we are clear.  The government should build roads and maintain the military, build and maintain schools and provide emergancy services.  The government should not provide social programs. 

    And for the record, people are supposed to survive by working hard.  I know some people physically cannot, but there are non profit organizations that do help them. 
    Just because conservatives are for limited government doesn’t mean that we want to lock the door on the capitol, we just want to see government do what is supposed to do instead of handing out money to everyone who comes knocking. 

    Todd, I am also sick and tired of the liberals saying that this is an investment in our future, that is just psycobabble.  Time after time the government has said that we should invest in our future and we spend the money only to find out that we had no affect impacting the problem that we were trying to solve.  A perfect example is the “War on Poverty” that President Johnson implemented.  We have spent $2 trillion dollars in an effort to wipe out poverty, which is a noble cause, but it has been absolute failure.  So don’t try to sell me on the “invest in our future” line, it won’t work. 

    You causes are noble, you want better education for our kids, good roads, but what happens when you take so much money from me that I can’t afford to send my children to college or can’t buy a decent car because I cannot afford it? 

    Using your logic the best thing for Colorado to do is to raise taxes to 100%, then we would be able to afford every program that the liberals want.

  80. Infrastructure improvements are investments in our future like improving education, supporting our elderly, and especially in fixing our roads and bridges.

    We’re not going to take so much money from you that you can’t send your kids to college.  And why?  Well, because if C and D pass, we’re not going to take a dollar more than we already took last year.  Remember, TABOR is basically a tax rebate if the state collects over the TABOR line.  We haven’t done that for four years. 

    My logic doesn’t say that we should raise taxes at all and I’m completely content with Colorado’s current tax rate that’s one of the lowest in the country. (Remember, if C and D pass, the tax rate will actually go down after the five years pass)  My logic says that the state of Colorado should be allowed to keep excess TABOR funds for five years to allow the state to return to a level that is pre-recessionary spending.  The amount of money collected by the state won’t change one penny but since we’ll start getting money over the TABOR line again this year, money already paid in taxes by Colorado taxpayers, a yes vote will go to improving Colorado’s education system, road infrastructure, and other important ear-maked programs.  It will be an investment in our future.  If K-12 education, higher education, health care, and roads and bridges are not an investment in the future, I sure as hell don’t know what is. 

    There are lot of families who won’t be able to afford to send their kids to college if C and D don’t pass.  Community colleges and smaller universities, once they stop recieving state funding, will be forced to close their doors.  Without a viable community college system, there will be a lot of our youth who are deprived of that opportunity.

  81. “The problem is that the government wants to spend all of the money on their pet projects that keep their constituents happy but ignore the essentials.”

    any specifics?

    here’s one – the millions that Stengel refused to give up for a library in his district.

    Joe Stengel – I was for Referenda C&D before I was against it.

  82. I’m disappointed in the bigoted posts from last night as I take a look at ColoradoPols this morning. I hope that the moderators of this site remove them.

    Heaven knows I love spirited discussion and debate, and I’m prone to taking unpopular positions (I’m opposed to C & D for my own reasons). Invective in the form of ethnic slurs is beneath the tenor of this blog and should be rewarded with revocation of the privilege to post messages.

  83. Well I can’t afford to send my kids to college…I couldn’t afford to send myself to college either, but due to hard work I make a very good living.
    You say the colleges will close their doors if this doesn’t pass. Why has UCCS been on a steady building spree for the past 9 or 10 years then? I know because I have been invloved in many of their projects.
    I feel zero sorry for the poor colleges.
    NO on C&D

  84. I agree with Jonathan, why do we spend all this money on teaching all these stupid kids?  I mean it is never ending, there are just going to be more stupid kids that are going need to go to school, look at the amount of money we have spent on teaching kids over the years and look there are just more stupid kids that need to be taught.

    When will the problem ever end????

    What is China and India thinking spending all that money on educating their citizens, they should learn from us and just stop this vicious cycle now.  College should be only for those rich few that can afford it.  And stop building all these stupid campuses; we should have people learn out in the open in the dead of winter like Newton did it.

    And I see a no on C and D sign on a I-25 bridge this morning, funny how this generation doesn’t want to maintain Colorado’s infrastructure for the next generation but has no problem hanging signs illegally from another example of those horrible taxes at work.

  85. Todd,

    While the building of infrastructure is and investment, it is also something that the government is supposed to do.  Nowhere in the Constitution does it provide for supporting the elderly, in fact the founders were adamint against such expenses by government. 

    I am glad that your are not going to take so much from me that I cannot send my children to college, but what give you the right to make that decision?  Where is it written that you get to decide how much money the taxgougers should take? 
    The reason TABOR passed was because people were promised that government would live within its means and give the excess back to the people who paid too much.  “Too much” means that the extra money doesn’t belong to the government, it belongs to the taxpayers.

    There are a lot of families that live paycheck to paycheck right now in Colorado.  They pay their taxes and they were promised that if the government took in more than was needed the taxpayers would get their money back.  You see, Todd, it is their money to do as they please.  It is not your money or the govenment’s money it is each individual taxpayer’s money and they get to decide what to do with it. 

    Todd, your fear tactics of colleges closing,  roads crumbling, and people dying without the support of the state, don’t hold water.  You may scare some people into voting for C&D but most see right through the smoke and mirrors

  86. marshall collins,

    You are ignorant if you assume that I think children are stupid.  If you would just be intelligent enough to read my posts you would understand that I support education.  I support public and private K-12 education and I want only the best for the kids in our schools. 

    As for infrastructure, you are again ignorant.  Please read my posts and if you do you will find that I am all for the government building and maintaining roads, bridges and the like.

    You folks cannot offer an intelligent debate without adding insults.  It shows that you are ruled by your emotions and logic is foreign to you.

  87. Since I sinned and put signs up on public land, I intend on picking up signs (any of them)to more than cover what I put out. It’s not as much an environmental stance but I voted no on more taxes, I realize public employees have to pick the crap up, so it’s my repentance. I don’t want to cause public employees more work because of me.

    I’m sorry.

    Hopefully nobody minds me picking up their signs. If you want them back, you can post your campaign and where to drop them off.

  89. Marshall,
    Your rhetoric again today is why you are not convincing anyone of the validity of your point. All your tirade has managed to do is state that you believe anyone against Ref C is either a whiner or selfish. There is no validity to your arguement that we want to starve the state and that we don’t care what happens. The real point here is that we don’t see this as a solution.

    As a citizen and a taxpayer, by voting NO on referendum C, I hope I am sending my message to the capitol that I expect results out of the state legislature, not an ill-conceived idea that treats the symptoms of the problem in the short term, but does not address the cause. If the cause of the state’s financial problems is not addressed, we will be discussing this same issue for years to come.

  90. Despite all the free ink spent on the passage of C&D at the Post and News, I believe both referenda will lose. 

    Never in my life have I seen such a blatant and sad use of such a well respected newspaper as I did on Sunday morning when I read the Denver Post.  I feel sorry for the hard working employees at the Post for having to witness their editor tarnish a once great newspaper. 

    Bob Ewegen has so much invested in the passage of this issue that I think he will lose his mind if they fail.

    Obviously, Bob has seen his own polling numbers because he never would have taken such a drastic measure as putting the Post editorial on the front page.  That is enough to tell me that Bob knows that both C&D are going down.

    I guess that the voters know better what to do with their own money than the “1000 different organizations” that are pushing so hard spend it for them.

    Vote no it’s your dough!!!

  91. CryBobE….did vote a week or two ago. Against C&D as I think I can spend my money better than they can on things that will benefit me and my family,,,,,,,that is MY priority.

  92. The problem is the way the politicans frame the question.  Vote YES on C&D and we will spend more money on schools.  Schools are like Apple Pie.  Of course you want your kids to get a good education and you think that spending more money accomplishes this.  Herein lies the problem.

    First, we need to decide if providing education is indeed a gov’t function.  We have lived so long with the current system, we assume that it is.  But, is it?  If the gov’t didn’t take the chunk of money that they currently take, at federal, state and local level for education, what type of education would we be able to buy for our children?  Would there be a fairer distrubition of the cost of education, where families with one child would pay less than families with six children, thus encouraging responsbile reproduction?

    Perhaps the gov’t should provide a “safety net” for families that can not afford to educate their children, but allow the others to have their money so that they can send their children to better and more efficient schools?  Vouchers is one program that could do this, although it is inefficient for the gov’t to take our money, only to give it back to us.  Somehow, we never get back quite as much as we give.  Instead, lets pay a tax for the people who won’t send their kids to private school and let the rest of us have the money to give our kids a really good education.

    Perhaps the gov’t needs to look into how much they spend fixing potholes and generally constructing roads.  Do you REALLY think that every contract to fix roads is efficient?  Or, do you think that there just might be some waste in there?

    Higher (college) education is one of the most inefficient systems around.  Of my 4-year degree, at least a year was wasted on material that was unrelated to my major.  One class that I had was called “political science” but in fact it was “why socialism is good and capitalism is bad.”  These classes are required, increasing the cost of a college education but adding little to the quality of the education.  By changing the fundamental structure, you can change the costs.  Of course, the edu-crats that run the universities will tell you that this provides a more “well-rounded” education.  Let those that think this is true take these “fluff” classes and let the rest concentrate on getting their degree and becoming productive (and tax paying) members of society.

    Remember, Colorado is the state the proudly is paying Ward Churchill.  And, oh yes, Ward is over there doing some really deep thinking. Consider Ward, and decide if there just might be a little bit of waste within the University system.

    If C&D are voted down, why do these programs need to be cut at all?  Your elected officials tell you that they do — but what they put on the chopping block is the things that people want the most.  They don’t try to cut the wasteful spending.  The budget process really prevents you from examining and commenting on what is wasteful spending without a lot of research and effort.

    The legislature takes testimony regarding new and existing programs from those that run the programs.  Of course, they get a rosy picture of how the program is great and how it is helping so many people.  It sounds great when someone comes and says “we are providing health care to those that can’t afford it.”  Who can be opposed to that?  Yet, the question is never asked “why can’t they afford it?”  Yes, there are some that are truly disabled and can’t work.  And, we should be providing for them.  But, there are many others that simply don’t want to work.  We shouldn’t be providing for them.

    Nine other states in America can run their gov’t without ANY personal income taxes (NV, WA, AK, TX, TN, WY, SD, NH, FL).  Some do it on the gambling tax and some on oil taxes.  Some have a slightly higher sales tax.  The result is a tax system that does not punish people for working harder and making more money.  Instead, it taxes their spending, and the state “sells” its natural resources.  Further, sales taxes extract more money from the tourists, who are willing and able to pay.  Imagine a Colorado with a 7.5% combined sales tax, instead of 6.7% today, but with NO income tax.  Then, you save all of the costs of creating and collecting the income tax too, without any increased cost in collecting the sales tax.  (It doesn’t cost any more to enter .075 into the calculator than it does to enter .067).

    With any business, when it has plenty of money to spend, it does not look too deeply at where the money is going.  Only when a business has a shortfall of revenue does it take a critical look at its spending.  That is what the state has done during the recession.  Now that the recession is over, the state wants to return to its fast spending ways.  TABOR is there to prevent that from happening.  Its purpose is to keep revenue from growing too fast.  It little pain — a little bit less money than what is needed is what helps to really sort out the priorities.  The problem is — the politicians won’t do that.  They just put the most important programs on the chopping block and say “see, if we don’t have more money, we will have to cut the things that you want.”  Don’t fall into that trap.  They WILL continue to fund education and they WILL continue to fix your roads — and if they don’t, don’t vote for them next time around!

    Vote NO on C&D now.  Force the politicians to cut responsibly and take a real, critical look at how they spend money!

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