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March 15, 2008 02:45 PM UTC

Weekend Open Thread

  • 68 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

“Facts are stupid things.”

–Ronald Reagan

Comments

68 thoughts on “Weekend Open Thread

        1. Jared says he is going to win Adams and gets stomped. Then he says he is going to win Boulder and gets crushed. He’s already saturated the airwaves and other media outlets. How in the world do you think he has room to improve?

            1. I don’t know what planet you are living on, but both McCain and Obama were right up there in the mix mid 2007. Obama was leading Clinton and Edwards in several polls in Iowa back in July and August. McCain was a front runner for several months before taking a dip.

              Despite this, my point isn’t that a politician can’t mount a comeback in 5 months. Clearly unknown politicians have room to grow. My point is that Jared has already spend a million dollars, saturated the airwaves, and had staff out in force. Meanwhile, Joan was doing relatively little. Yet he still got schooled. My point, which you so cleverly avoided, was that unlike McCain and Obama 5 months before their primaries started, Jared has already saturated the political market. You can’t go up from 100% saturation. People already know Jared and they don’t like him. He can’t just throw more money at that problem.

              1. When I ask non-political people about Jared they think I’m talking about the Subway sandwich guy. Joan’s name recognition isn’t much better.

                As to mid 2007 – Obama was 15+ points below Hillary and mid-year she was rising while Obama was falling – http://www.pollster.com/USTopz

                McCain vs Giuliana – same thing – http://www.pollster.com/USTopz

                As I said, you would have been a horrible advisor for either of them in mid 2007.

                1. Nice spin again. Obama and McCain might have been down in the national polls that far, but not the Iowa polls. If we are talking 5 months out, let’s talk 5 months out. National polls are meaningless in the presidential primary.

                  In this case, Jared has had a “poll” in all 10 counties in the district. He has lost all but 1 of those counties, and even that county was close.

                  David, I am disturbed by how fast you turned into a biased partisan for Jared, spinning everything in a positive light. Jared just got his butt kicked all across CD-2 and you see things as rosy. Give me a break.

                  1. I’m spinning??? Have you looked in a mirror recently?

                    My point is not that Jared is doing great. If you read my blog my comment was “60/40 is a gigantic challange … So advantage Joan.” I wouldn’t call that rosy. I’m just saying he still has a chance.

                    1. I don’t need a mirror. I know I am biased against Jared because he is an egotistical multi-millionaire who changes his stance to accommodate whatever people want to hear. He is one of these folks, like George Bush, who can not and will not EVER admit to making a mistake.

                      The point is that you parade around like you are unbiased and are giving fair assessments of the situation. Although you throw in just enough to not lose all credibility (60/40 is a gigantic challenge) you ensure to tweak and change every little thing you talk about in a rosy light. I don’t mind that you are biased, I mind that you pretend to be unbiased while being biased. I understand it is difficult to see when one is being biased, just like it is difficult for Jared to see when he is doing the very things he says he opposes. But just because I understand it is difficult doesn’t mean I’m not going to call you out on it.

                      Everyone should be well aware that DavidThi808 isn’t just voting Jared, he is pushing for Jared. Because of that, he is no different than any partisan supporting any of the candidates in this race. As long as people understand that when they are reading your comments, I’m happy. I just don’t want people to be fooled into thinking you are giving some fair & unbiased outlook on the CD-2 race.

                    2. David has been pretty upfront since he made his decision to support Polis. He even took us through his decision making process. I will say that I was a bit surprised about his conclusion, I think he might well have gone through the same process and come out supporting JFG.

                      So, now that David has made that decision should he not support the candidate of his choice? I don’t think so. I support JFG and am likely to write a post or two that shows MY bias.

                      Bias on Pols is fine and dandy. We’re a group that can discuss without alleging some lack of moral fiber. Hell we even enjoy the stuff that is on the fringes from Sir Robin, Gecko, perhaps even myself.

                      I personally only have trouble with the folk who insist that Lamborn has a brain, or that Bush is a great American, or that Al Queda and Hussein were partners. Those are the folk who twist facts and logic. Those are the folk who often are subject to derisive response.

                    3. and grouping me with the likes of Gecko. The comment from me that stirred the most vitriole in the last two years was that the military sucks at the teat of the taxpayer. I stand by that statement. The military-industrial complex is out of control, and the costs are staggering.

                      We’re seeing (after the Chimp talks about an ownership society) the collapse of the financial and home ownership systems…and subsequent bailout/loan with taxpayer money….while those who failed to see it coming still treated as men of good judgment.

                      Remind you of anything?

                      Like, the Dirty Fucking Hippies and Iraq?

                      The ruling class is completely dysfunctional. They’re only good at two things: stealing and lying.

                      If these recognitions puts me on the fringe, then I urge more to wake up and smell the rottenness that is ruining this great country.

                      I am hopeful…guardedly optimistic…that the coming election with begin to correct, heal and reposition us as a people and a country onto the path we should all aspire to….Peace, Justice, Economic Fairness, Dignity and Freedom for all deserving citizens….Is that too much to ask?

                    4. I also might have included myself. I often agree with you and one of my core beliefs is that if you are not skating close to the edge you are taking up too much room in the middle.

                      I might have re-written that sentence but you, Gecko and I are equally “fringey” yet still able to participate. Sorry if I offended. If I intended to offend I would not apologize.

                    5. I’m altogether comfortable expressing my “core” to the readers and participants on CoPols. There’s so much I learn here, and am humbled by…with the likes of yourself, Go Blue, Danny the Red, Barron X, OQD, Dan Willis, Bpilgram, Phoenix Rising, Parsing….just to name a few of the excellent participants.

                      You just gave me a chance to post…..Thanks!

                    6. I agree people should be able to express their bias. I just don’t like it when they try to come across unbiased. As for Lamborn having a brain or Bush being a great American, I see that as the same thought process that would lead someone to believe that Polis is an ethical straight shooter–despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. People that buy into politicians words when those words are clearly contrary to their actions deserve the derisive response you talk about.

                    7. and after reading many of Dave’s posts, I am stunned with his decision to support Jared.  Dave admits Jared will make many mistakes.This criteria is absurd. Dave has lowered the bar for a congressional candidate.Sending a “hot dog” to Congress who says he is an “out of the box” thinker is a disaster waiting to happen.

                      Our Congressional candidate needs “to play well with others” in order to get things done. They don’t need brash and arrogant (as JP displayed in Grand county).This doesn’t mean to say that they are without principle. There are 435 members of Congress to work with.

                      Jared is all about doing things his way because his life expreiences have made him top banana with the financial security to have others tow the line. This is not how Congress works.

                      Dave, wake up and smell the coffee, CD2 delegates have taken a stand on who will represent them in Congress.

                    8. I wasn’t at Grand’s convention but I have heard 4 different versions of what occured there so I’m not giving that any credence.

                      Have you ever worked at a high-tech company? I have most of my life and am presently CEO of one and let me tell you a little secret – I almost never get my way.

                      To succeed in the high-tech industry you need to get the best out of everyone and that means you have to give them ownership of their piece. You spend lots of time listening and persuading but you don’t get to make others tow the line.

                      As to making many mistakes, if you want a lot of innovative thinking, then you are going to get a lot of failures. If you can have lots of innovative ideas without a lot of failures then lets hear it because that would be great. But what I have found is the two go hand in hand.

                      I think having a couple of legislators who have a track record of numerous innovative ideas that were very succcessful and a willingness to try, try, and try again understaning that having 10% of the ideas pan out is a great record – I think that would be very beneficial for our country.

                    9. It’s one thing to have innovation that gets revised and improved by analysis before implementation.  It’s another to have innovation carry through to implementation before realizing that there are going to be issues.

                      If you hold forth A41 as an example of that, it definitely falls in the latter category: given a chance to analyze and improve it, the original went ahead instead.

                      Given the nature of some of the bills coming out of Congress, methinks we need at least as much careful thought as we do innovation.  In that melting pot, innovation is just another form of pet issue – either pushed to the side or promoted heedless of its sanity.  For Jared, this is a wash – a willingness to think outside the box tempered by a tendency to let ideas escape without bringing them to maturity.

                    10. I think A41 was Jared’s worst moment. The thing is, in the legislature he is forced to put it through the mill unlike the amendment process where it can be put out without the feedback and improvement.

                      I think the legislative process will force Jared to think things through. He won’t like it at times but it will make him more effective I believe.

                      And fundamentally it’s all a crapshoot. We have no way of knowing which one will do a “better” job for us.

            2. to Jared for his ability (not yet experienced first hand) to engage those who are otherwise less involved, those with less reason to hop, i.e. gays, kids, etc. And I think he has been pretty imaginative in his campaign with events such as testing toys for lead. But, I have to give greater points to JFG for accomplishment. Disclosure: I have met JFG a few times and find her very pleasing to talk with, very engaging and pleasant. I do think, to paraphrase Hillary, she is ready on Day One. But, I was disappointed that she was not out front with opposition to the war. I will vote for whomever the Dems choose in this race as I will for Pres and Senate. That is unusual for me.

  1. This puts into words better than I could say it, my feelings:

    “Now that the Fed has chopped interest rates (and will chop again, not that it’s going to translate into lower rates for consumers) and they pumped $200 billion into Wall Street, I’d like to know where exactly the so-called free market/industry self-regulate people are. Where are they? They’re all at the front of the bloody line calling for more handouts. When Democrats ask for money for SCHIP or food money for the poor or unemployment extensions, all we hear is about cost. What is the matter with Democrats? Is it so hard to scream and yell like the GOP? Why are they so silent on this bailout? Even the homeowner bailout is a pittance compared to the Wall Street bailout.

    To show you what frauds the Republicans are, look at how we raised a $200 billion “loan” that uses the garbage subprime papers that nobody in their right mind wants anyway. Debate? Hell no. Just “poof” out of the blue sky, here’s a bailout and a healthy loan to Wall Street, which won’t be enough anyway. How is it that the “free market” crowd is suddenly nowhere to be found during this crisis? It’s the McCain economic team that put all of this into place, so where is he now? Where’s the outrage? And for the conspiracy theorists take note that the Spitzer story just happened to take the spotlight away from a very important event this week.

    The banking system that is tumbling was designed and built together with the GOP. They can sit silent but they own this. McCain and his friends own this. This is what they wanted and there is no reason why US taxpayers ought to keep funding their mistakes. Shouldn’t we treat Wall Street the way Wall Street and the GOP treat America’s poor? Let them pick themselves up with their own bootstraps. Let them dig themselves out of the hole they dug form themselves. We can’t afford a war plus a tanking economy plus a bailout for Wall Street. If that means the market will decided (as they always prefer) then so be it. Don’t come crying and asking for cash now that the system they wanted is failing. Tough luck.”

    h/t Americablog

    1. but thanks for posting this, Sir Robin. The government is bailing out people who claim it’s not the governments job to bail out people who are in a jam because of their own mistakes. In this case, the mistakes were made in the name of capitalism so I guess it’s okay.

      I wish the Ds would spend a week or two spotlighting this issue so maybe the mainstream media would pick it up.

      It seems the Rs are always so much better with spin.

      1. The big lie is that lazy poor people are the ones who are taking the lion’s share of our tax dollars out of our pockets ala Reagan’s mythical welfare queens in Cadillacs. What a crock.  

        The biggest welfare queens are the corporate elite who screw  the other 99+% of us coming and going.  No matter what stupid risks they take and how many people wind up worse off because of it, they can always count on being bailed out with the tax dollars of those they screwed.  

        They are in a position where the government can’t let them go under without taking down the entire economy.  And they can count on their party, the Republican party,  to scream “class warfare” whenever anyone tries to bring this up.

        Bailing out working people who have suffered tragedies and fallen on hard times is socialism.  Bailing out multi-millionaires and billionaires who’ve been getting huge bonuses all along for running their companies and financial empires into the ground right up until their reckless greed threatens to totally tank the whole economy is as American as apple pie.  

        While ordinary people go bankrupt when a catastrophic illness strikes, the government can’t let the financial empires of these bozos go under.  

        It will keep right on happening, too, because there is absolutely no reason for these people to avoid any level of recklessness in the future.  They know it will be the “little people” who have to suffer and pay, not them. They will just go on accumulating an ever more out-sized share of the wealth and power.  They are untouchable. The “class warfare” struggle is over and they won it decisively back in the ’80s.  

    2. By corporations. Let’s not forget President Bush’s brother, the S&L criminal. Dad bailed him and his friends out at great cost to taxpayers.

      I want to see the receipt for this and an explanation why we can afford two wars and this bailout, but can’t get meaningful healthcare and education. I guess they want us sick and ignorant as long as their friends get our money.

      Where ARE our esteemed Conservative colleagues? Anyone up for some defense? Anyone?

    3. How about 30 seconds of reality?

      1-The Wall Street bailout isn’t worse than the homeowner bailout.   It IS the homeowner bailout!  Calling in all those sub prime morttgages in a fire sale to meet a run on the bank would trigger a financial panic.

      2-All the federal reserve is doing is preserving the liquidity of Bear Stearns, etc., so that it doesn’t have to call in all those loans.  

      that’s how the banking system works.

      If FDR had followed the advice of your leftist Demogogues in 1933 there would have no Bank Holiday — and we’d probably have had a communist or fascist revolution by 1936.  

      Get a grip, boys.  It’s fine to advocate for CHIP, to repeal the Bush tax cuts, etc.

      But trying to destroy the American economy is a strange way to bring about your liberal paradise.

      1. …I don’t think it’s the bailout per se, but the hypocrisy of these free market charlatans.  It’s always “the free market, let the chips fall where they may, it always corrects itself to the benefit of everyone.”  Horseshit.

        The cons have been screaming about how all the people in foreclosure had it coming because they are stupid and/or greedy.  The same cons are silent now that we see our MBA uber-smart financiers are just as stupid and/or greedy.  

        The difference is that Bear, Stearn, et al can hire K street lobbyists to save their asses. Two hundred billion doesn’t cover shit for the homeowners in default.

        The reason Hoover lost the 1932 election to FDR is that he was all for pumping “loans” into the system, but they went to big business.  Hoover thought that giving money to Americans would make them weak.  So, for the moral good of America, the Depression got worse and worse.  

        My brother’s house is five months in arrears. The mortgage company can’t foreclose for at least nine months more due to the load. (Lee County, Ft. Myers, has the highest per capita foreclosure rate in the nation.  One in 84 houses is in foreclosure.) He’s told me that all these help lines are basically working on the premise that you have an income and just need credit counseling.  For the people without incomes, too bad. No help for you.

      2. …I don’t think it’s the bailout per se, but the hypocrisy of these free market charlatans.  It’s always “the free market, let the chips fall where they may, it always corrects itself to the benefit of everyone.”  Horseshit.

        The cons have been screaming about how all the people in foreclosure had it coming because they are stupid and/or greedy.  The same cons are silent now that we see our MBA uber-smart financiers are just as stupid and/or greedy.  

        The difference is that Bear, Stearn, et al can hire K street lobbyists to save their asses. Two hundred billion doesn’t cover shit for the homeowners in default.

        The reason Hoover lost the 1932 election to FDR is that he was all for pumping “loans” into the system, but they went to big business.  Hoover thought that giving money to Americans would make them weak.  So, for the moral good of America, the Depression got worse and worse.  

        My brother’s house is five months in arrears. The mortgage company can’t foreclose for at least nine months more due to the load. (Lee County, Ft. Myers, has the highest per capita foreclosure rate in the nation.  One in 84 houses is in foreclosure.) He’s told me that all these help lines are basically working on the premise that you have an income and just need credit counseling.  For the people without incomes, too bad. No help for you.

        1. the debate re bankruptcy just a couple of years ago. Imagine the same people saying the same things about this bailout. If that happened and all voted the same a lot of companies would be going out of business. I don’t happen to think that would necessarily be a bad thing. It isn’t as though other mortgagors wouldn’t spring up in there place.

        2. It’s a loan.  What’s happening is a classic “runon a bank.”  If Bear tried to cover all that are trying to withdraw, it would have to call in all those shaky mortgages, forcing foreclosure, etc.  Once investers know their deposits are sound, the run goes away.  Bear Stearns will pay interest on that loan and repay it.  If it can’t, it will go through an orderly liquidations.  I don’t mind your beating up on the Bush apologists, etc.  But Robin’s post was pure hysteria and devoid of both facts and logic.

          1. It’s the hypocrisy.  And I would never call you stupid, the frequent ending for similar observations.  You are correct, but the outrage is over the hypocrisy of Big Bad Government Except When Our Asses Need It.

          2. From Greg Palast’s blog at the Smirking Chimp:

            While New York Governor Eliot Spitzer was paying an ‘escort’ $4,300 in a hotel room in Washington, just down the road, George Bush’s new Federal Reserve Board Chairman, Ben Bernanke, was secretly handing over $200 billion in a tryst with mortgage bank industry speculators.

            Both acts were wanton, wicked and lewd. But there’s a BIG difference. The Governor was using his own checkbook. Bush’s man Bernanke was using ours.

            This week, Bernanke’s Fed, for the first time in its history, loaned a selected coterie of banks one-fifth of a trillion dollars to guarantee these banks’ mortgage-backed junk bonds. The deluge of public loot was an eye-popping windfall to the very banking predators who have brought two million families to the brink of foreclosure.

            Up until Wednesday, there was one single, lonely politician who stood in the way of this creepy little assignation at the bankers’ bordello: Eliot Spitzer.

            And it gets better:

            Then, on Wednesday of this week, the unthinkable happened. Carlyle Capital went bankrupt. Who? That’s Carlyle as in Carlyle Group. James Baker, Senior Counsel. Notable partners, former and past: George Bush, the Bin Laden family and more dictators, potentates, pirates and presidents than you can count.

            Not only did Bush manage to take down the one guy who stood in his way, he managed to bail out Daddy and his financiers at the same time.

            This is just more bullshit from Bush and his cronies, and like everything else, the taxpayers get stuck with the bill. And I’m sure it was a “coincidence” that Obama’s pastor showed up on YouTube this week, too. Nothing like a couple of juicy diversions to keep the talking heads on cable occupied while the real stories go unreported.

            Was Spitzer an idiot? Absolutely. He had to know that these guys would be laying a trap for him, and he walked right into it anyway. And as a result, Bush will probably get away with this, just like he always does.

    4. The roots of the sub-prime meltdown are with the Fed’s yo-yo policies of interest rate adjustments, not with Rs, Ds, lenders or consumers.

      In response to the dot-com bubble and 9/11 recession, between 2000 and 2003, the Fed reduced the federal funds rates 13 consecutive quarters driving down the rate to 1%.  Mortgage interest rates followed that rate down.  Sub-prime lending exploded.

      Robert Schiller, a Yale economist, estimates that every 1% decrease in mortgage rates causes a 10-16% increase in housing prices.  As interest rates drop, people bid up the price of houses and/or buy more house than they need/can afford.

      As mortgage rates went down and housing prices went up, the construction industry boomed, sub-prime lending to people who would otherwise not qualify for loans expanded, people took out ARMs and used their homes like an ATM assuming the party would never end.

      But it did end.  Starting in 2004 the Fed raised the federal funds rate 17 times from 1% to 5.25%.  Mortgage rates went up, housing prices fell and the construction industry tanked.  The housing bubble started to burst in late 2005.

      Those sub-prime ARM loans started to go bad when the interest rate reset starting in 2005-6.  Foreclosures went up and collateralized loans started pulling down big lenders (Bear Stearns may be the next victim on Monday.) as foreclosures started working through the legal system.

      Make no mistake about it, government — in the form of the Fed — created this problem we are now living through.

      Unfortunately, no one (except me) seems to recall that it was the Fed’s interest rate reductions that got us into this mess in the first place.  Now, many are waiting for the Fed to save us from the problem it created with — what else — interest rate reductions that will lay the seeds of the next boom and bust cycle.

      Eons ago, Milton Freidman suggested that the Fed not engage in such economic tinkering, but grow the money supply at a predictable, fixed rate.  If you listen closely, you can probably hear “I told you so” coming from Friedman’s grave.

      Most politicians and political commentors have no clue how the federal funds rate changes ripple through the economy, and the public political debate devolves into looking for someone to blame (lenders, consumers, Ds or Rs, etc.) rather than place the blame where it belongs — with the Fed.

      1. I never knew some of those facts, but yes, the Fed became a politicized tool of business going for short term profits.  Definitely not the purpose of it. Many saw that the “good” Bush economy was worse than a house of straw.

        At least the dot com bust wasn’t the apocalypse this bust is.  

      2. And as I think back on many a bleary-eyed morning half-listening to Squawk Box on CNBC, I think a majority of the commentators expressed serious concern with the way the Fed handled interest rate adjustments. And, I think it goes back to Greenspan (pretty much has to) and continues with Bernanke.

        Just don’t ask me to prove anything because I frequently have trouble comprehending the topic of the day on Squawk Box …

      1. Ferraro is still relevant…

        “Barack Murray Obama wouldn’t be in the position he’s in if he wasn’t Jewish,” said Ms. Ferraro to herself.

  2.    I was reading some of the remarks by Barack Obama’s minister, Jeremiah Wright.

      One of his comments about 9/11 was that we had this coming to us, and “America’s chickens are coming home to roost.”

      IIRC, wasn’t that pretty much what Ward Churchill said about 9/11?

    1. Ward was a bit more ugly about it; he blamed the folks who died in the Twin Towers, not just the country’s actions in general.

      There was lots of preachin’ goin’ on blaming some part of American society for 9/11, right left and center.

      1.    It’s like the prof used to say in Poli Sci 101…..you go far enough to the right and far enough to left, and wing nuts meet up and find common cause.

        1. The majority of the country wants to move beyond the divisions of the past, the mentality of Ferraro and Wright;

          As Bobby Kennedy said:

          I think we can end the divisions within the United States. What I think is quite clear is that we can work together in the last analysis. And that what has been going on with the United States over the period of that last three years, the divisions, the violence, the disenchantment with our society, the divisions – whether it’s between blacks and whites, between the poor and the more affluent, or between age groups, or in the war in Vietnam – that we can work together. We are a great country, an unselfish country and a compassionate country. And I intend to make that my basis for run

    1. McCain, budget-conscious crusader.  Vote for McCain to save our country from financial crisis.  McCain voted with President George W. Bush in 2001 (2002 budget year) to ensure we didn’t continue paying down our massive federal debt.  He supported the President’s tax cuts, giving people the comfort of knowing that they could safely put off their payment of government services to their children.  He voted again for the 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 Bush budgets, enshrining the massive growth of government spending favored by the Republican Party.  And he strongly supports the ongoing spending of hundreds of billions of Federal taxpayer dollars every year in Iraq, where it has done so much good.

      Needs work, doesn’t it…

      1. Or something like that.  Yeah, we’re workin on the message.  Can we still call girls “chicks?”  I’m trying to bring the Dixie Chick crowd back home to Jesus.

        I told John, “That hundred year war thing isn’t going down well with the crucial Joan of Arc lobby, we’ve got to shift focus.”

  3.    Anyone else see N.Y. Times article about the Alaska GOP state convention this morning?

      The Lt. Gov shocked the delegates by announcing that he was taking on incumbent U.S. Rep Don “Bridge to Nowhere” Young in the Congressional primary this summer.  The Gov then immediately endorsed him.

      This set off Young, who shouted at the Lt. Gov that if he really wanted to run for Congress, he should have done so in ’06 instead of running for Lt. Gov.

      No word on who, if anyone, will be taking on Ted Stevens in a primary.

      Let the crap flow!

     

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