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December 07, 2005 09:00 AM UTC

Wednesday Open Thread

  • 77 Comments
  • by: Colorado Pols

It’s the only open thread you’ll get all day, so make the most of it.

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77 thoughts on “Wednesday Open Thread”

  2. It’s my dough, just say NO! Who among us believes that what you read below is the best way to “win” the war on terrorism? If true, this is CRAZY!

    *************************************************

    In yesterday?s Wall Street Journal, deputy editor George Melloan advanced startling rationale for the Iraq war. In Melloan?s view, the invasion was about creating a home base from which the United States can launch future wars against Iran and Syria:

    The invasion of Iraq was not only about weapons of mass destruction?It was also about establishing a U.S. war-fighting beachhead in the heart of the Middle East, the principal breeding ground of terrorists. The invasion took out one terrorism sponsor, Saddam Hussein, and gave the U.S. a presence for intimidating two others, Iran and Syria.

    According to Melloan, we need to finish the job in Iraq quickly ? not so we can send the troops home ? but so we can get ready to fight Iran:

    Nowhere is the antipathy toward America and the West more clearly manifested than in Iran?Getting Iraq under control is urgent because of what may be the next threat in the Middle East.

    Don?t expect the string of wars to end anytime soon. Melloan concludes that the fight could last ?30 years in the view of some analysts.?

  3. Well, I went to Ed Perlmutter’s blog after the allegations of his past activities with Promise Keepers were made on this site on a couple of days ago and posted my questions to him about this.

    Got his response today.

    He closed down his blog…

    Peggy is looking better to me by the day…

  6. What in the world could possibly be wrong with Ed Perlmutter going to a Promise Keeper rally?  Are you intolerant of people with a different religion than your’s?

  7. ColoradoDem,

      I have been trying to get through the ‘Silence of the Lamm’ myself. I wrote her campaign on 11-14 with some questions. No answer.
      I sent another email on 12/1 asking only if the address I had was the best way to reach the campaign. A staffer named Kate replied right away saying it sure was, and that they would be happy to answer any questions I had.
      So on 12/2 I asked my questions again. No answer.

      These are the questions I asked. If anyone knows the answers I would love to hear them…

    “1) I keep hearing a claim about you endorsing Owens in 2002. I have seen that you have made it very clear that you did not. Still, I have read that Owens made two press releases using your name and that despite it being reported in the press, you did not do anything at the time to set the record straight. If you did not support him, why did you not say so at the time?

    2)  I myself did not grow up in this district. I was born and raised in Detroit. For me a seat in Congress is one with a national constituency. Still, many of my neighbors do not share that view. How would you respond to the concern that you do not have a long history of being a part of the community that you would be representing?

    3) People keep asking me what the difference is between you and Ed on the issues. I asked Mr. Perlmutter for an example of a vote that he might cast that would differ from one you would cast. He cited the example of Gun Laws. Are there any other examples of an issue where your position is substantively different from Mr. Perlmutter’s that would result in you voting one way on a bill and him the other?”

  8. John,

    There is nothing wrong with visiting a Promise Keeper rally (I wish that Perlmutter would have responded this way instead of shutting down his blog–apparently he thinks he has something to be ashamed of), if you are able to keep your religious convictions seperate from your political convictions.  Being a gay man, I am concerned with PKers (as well as other right wing religious organizations) teaching on issues related to gay rights.  We already have one right wing party–they are called Republicans.

    I’d prefer the Dems to nominate an individual who will fight for my rights.

    I should hasten to point out that I am also a Christian who attends church on a weekly basis, so no, I am not anti-Christian or anti-religion.  I am anti-bigots.

  9. So it is okay to have religious beliefs as long as we don’t talk about them or they don’t affect our political beliefs?  So it would then be okay to be gay as long as it does not affect your political beliefs?  I don’t understand….

  12. John,

    Not at all.  Ed Perlmutter absolutely has a right to his religious belief and has an absolute right to talk about them (strangely, he is choosing not to discuss them and is rather choosing to shut down his blog when asked about them).  I, as a voter, have an absolute right to ask him how those beliefs inform his political positions.

    My question is do his religious beliefs, and association with what I would describe as a radical right wing religious organization preclude him from respecting the rights of those who beliefs differ from his own.

  13. Ed’s campaign has been working on their site recently, and several of the pages are clearly under construction. It looks more too me like they are just working on the blog and the site generally. They have been very good at getting back to me whenever I have questions.
      Of course, if you realy want to sit down with Peggy, Ed, or even Herb and get some clear answers, you can always have pancakes with all three at the Jeffco Dems Second Saturday Breakfast forum.
    http://63.134.206.68/web/

  15. First of all, the “Promise Keepers” is not a religion.  It’s a paternalistic “men’s movement” who’s motto is “If you really want to change the world, change the men.”

    It is one thing to be religious.  It is quite another thing to join an ideological movement based on male-superiority and the subrogation of women.  Don’t take my word for it, check it out for yourself.

    http://www.promisekeepers.org/

  16. The Promise Keeper thing is minor to me.  While I think the group is a little bit of an extremist cult, if Ed thinks it helps him be a better husband or father, then that’s his personal decision. 

    The problem I have is if any politicians lets their personal faith get in the way of good government.

    On that score, Ed’s vote in favor of using public money for private religious schools is troubling, especially since he sent his kids to private, religious school (Faith Bible).

  17. I really doubt that Ed shut down his blog just to spite you, Coloradem.  If you weren’t so full of yourself, you might consider whether he simply had technical problems.  Lord knows, everybody else does.

  25. I am bored and watching the people who know everything battle it out about Ed and keeping a promise or something like that.

    I’d be more worried about how many people he will owe favors too… not where he goes for his house of god.

    Do be honest… lets talk about some of the other races?

    Anyone want to start something NOT about Lamm or Ed… or even Herb. How about the 6, or 4 th CD?

  27. mz and Co_Dem_Guy:

    You are both lazy.  Do you really need others to start a discussion for you?

    Hmmm, how about this…

    Barnett just got fired.  Good riddance.  Sex, drugs, encouraging boozing with Foundation dollars on a campus where sutdents are dying of alcohol poisoning?  No big deal.  But lose to TEXAS?  And yer toast!

    (see how easy that was?)

  28. Um I posted the first post of the day Lame-o.

    Why is it that so few people use the same name? They change it to insult other people…. well its LAME 😀

  29. Actually, Ed/Peggy is the hot topic now in the wake of her winning Emily’s favor.  Musgrave bashers can always go back to that thread. But if you’re so bored, why hang out here?  I, for one, am tired of the Holtzman/bb wars and welcome the diversion.

  30. Regarding Peggy Lamm:

    I have met her several times, the first time she really opened up about her upbringing really intrigued me.  Her father was a retired Army LTC, veteran of WWII.  She has an affinity for the military as most military brats do, I am one myself.  I like women politicians with the exception of CD 1, I prefer them a bit more agressive and on point.  I am familiar with Bighorn and attended a course, was very impressed with the bi-partisan atmosphere, it is great training for the real world.  I’d say that Peggy has a PhD in policy and life in general.  The trick in politics seems to be surrounding yourself with talent, it always seems to rub off.  If on the other hand you surround yourself with “toadies” you just may turn into one yourself.  e.g. Allard and Beauprez.  Call Beauprez’s office in Washington, ask them how Beauprez feels about torture 202-225-2645, to Allards credit he’s on record, no one could accuse him of being “both ways”

  31. Mike Collins – its nice to see a fair post.  I would hope everyone in here could see that Peggy and Ed are both good Choices.

    I feel Peggy is better on a number of Issues over Ed… that and he helps build Wal-Mart’s. Peggy impressed me very much, its not everyday you can sit down and talk with someone running for office and have them tell you like it is. Peggy is one of the few people will say what she thinks… if you get upset you can tell her what you think.

    I respect Ed and Peggy… I feel with Emily’s lists support NOW, NARAL, The president Project and a number of other women’s pacs will follow. Then Peggy will have the money to promote Peggy and where Peggy Stands.

    It will be a good fight… lets hope there is not as much mud fling as there is in here. I will support who ever wins in CD7? because Dems can win that seat. The Dems need to win that seat!

    Stay warm everyone!

  32. Lame-O,
    I also heard the rumors that Barnett was fired. But just a little while ago I heard that he never sent in his acceptance for a contract extension that has been on his desk for several days now. And he is now asking them to extend it. So I’m not sure what is true. I do know if they fire him it will be ironic that he can be let go in just a day or so, but we still have the America hating Ward Churchill working there. I personally think the crap he spews to our youth is as damaging or more as anything Gary could have done.

  33. CoDem, you monster!  Being all reasonable and sweetness and light?  You Ds are supposed to have a good clean fight from which no survivors emerge.  That’s what the Republicans do!

  34. Anyone notice that there has been no mention of Pearl Harbor in the paper (Gazette) that I could find, and very little about it on the air waves either? I guess it is ancient history, or could it be that we need to be more tolerant of the Japanese and let bygones be bygones?

  35. In all fairness to Ed, I have contributed to his campaign as well as Peggy’s, he’s a fighter and he really is a Democrat.  I don’t know anything about his construction business or think that building Wal-Marts is a bad thing, they will build them whether Ed builds them or not. I don’t shop at them, I prefer Costco because they treat employees very well.  If indeed Ed does build Wal-Marts, then might that say something about the quality of his product?  What I am most sure about is that the next CD 7 Representative will be a Democrat and I can assure you that Peggy and Ed both will be happy about that.  I also like Bill Ritter and feel much the same way he does regarding abortion, I’m uncomfortable with it, but I’m not a woman, I can’t possibly understand the issue nor do I want to be distracted from the meat and potatoes issues facing the state and country.  16 year old girls shouldn’t be having sex, but they do and they get pregnant.  Strapping a little girl with that kind of responsibility seems cruel and unusual.  In many lower income cases it is a proverbial death sentence for two people, the mother and the child.  When your young, things like the lure of sex is a very powerful emotion, reminds me of a saying my senile old uncle used to say and say a lot about relieving oneself, “nor man nor beast can stop the urge, when you got to go, you got to go”.  As far as drawing a line where life begins, what about birth control pills, what does that kill?  Outlaw BC pills and what do you think might happen?  I just hope NARAL stays out of the endorsing business, it really is the kiss of death for most Democrats.

  36. gecko – You’re right. I had totally forgot that it was the attack of Pearl Harbor in 1941. Its a shame we are not talking more about it.

    On the other hand, they are one of bushies fav people now

  39. It really is a shame. Not so much that December 7th happened. That is history, but the fact that we really are being bought out by the Japanese. I have nothing against them as a people. They suffered under brutal dictators that brainwashed them in years past, but the way I look at it is they lost the battle of WWII, but they won the war.
    It is possible that in 50 years this country could be called the United States of Japan. Or maybe Peoples Republic of China/America……..
    Some people have given me nasty looks as on my old Harley I have a sticker that shows the island of Japan. On it is marked the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Underneath is the caption: Two bombs weren’t enough.

    Sorry…just ranting

  40. Ed’s religious beliefs have NOTHING to do with his political beliefs.  After all he is a Democrat.  So, have no fear – this is a guy who can claim one thing and do another without any twinge to his conscience.  Besides he has voted Anti-Life and anti-Christian since he was in office.

  41. Gecko: Do you seriously have that bumper sticker? If so, you have serious issues. Where do you even buy that kind of sticker…. the KKK Outlet Mall?

  42. Gecko, as a nation, Japan works harder than we do, saves more of its money, and invests more in education, the only real “natural resource” a nation needs.  They deserve to outstrip us on the economic front. The same is true, in spades, for the Koreans. We need to learn from them, not deride them.

  43. Michael Schiavo has started a PAC to go after members of congress who inserted themselves into his family tragedy and used Terri as a political football.  He has specifically mentioned Marilyn Musgrave as one of his targets.

    Good for him!

  45. As someone who has lived in Japan, and has worked in both Japan and China,  I would have to say that worrying about Japan “taking over the US” is silly.  There were xenophobic scares back in the 80’s in Japan’s economic heyday, when Japanese conglomerates were buying up resorts, hotels, etc. in the USA.  However, the Japanese economy has been in the doldrums for years and this is not something to worry about.

    China, on the other hand, is an economic, political and soon military Juggernaut that will surpass the economic might of the US very soon. That is just a reality. New millionaires are being minted there every day, massive urban centers are being created, and it is slowly evolving from a producer culture to a consumer culture. I would guess that China will own most of our debt soon if not already.

    Having said that, there are good and bad people anywhere in the world regardless of where they came from.  China and Japan are no exception in this regard.

  46. The ‘Promise Keepers’ do NOT represent my views in any way.

    They are a sham and an abomination in Mine eyes.

    Yea, verily, thou should shun them as the blasphemers they are.

  48. Voyaguer,
    You are correct. We should learn from the Japanese, Chinese, etc. Instead we have maintained the old status quo and have damn near become at the mercy of Asian nations for our economic survival. We buy their cars, tvs, electronics, etc because they are usually better and cheaper than what we could produce here. Could much of this be a result of our Unions?
    I don’t proclaim to know everything there is to know about the global workings of our nation intertwined with others, but I do see Japan owning this country if we don’t do something different. Any ideas?
    Oh and “kareoke hero”, I do in fact have that sticker and several more identical on my trucks. I bought them in Sturgis in 1985. They haven’t been around for quite awhile and I needed more so I think the last time I found them on the internet. Don’t remember where though.
    And I’m not a KKK guy. Just hate seeing so many Japanese cars on the roads knowing most of the money spent on them is going overseas……..

  49. The answer to restoring America’s economic leadership is clearly not protectionism, Gecko.  But I know the indispensable first step — getting rid of a 9 month school year that worked fine when I was a 10 year-old farm boy spending my summers on the back of a tractor but is an anchronism in an age when farmers are about 1 percent of our population.  We need an 11 month school year at least through grade 10.  (I think there is merit in summer jobs for teenagers, letting them break into the world of work), less PC crap in the curriculum, more math, science, real history, and reading, reading, read and writing, writing, writing.  Go to any mall in America and you’ll see America’s youth throwing away their future in the video arcades.  National reform must start with a reform of our ludicrous K-12 baby-sitting system and anything that doesn’t scrap the 9 month school year won’t work.  Unleash the power of the American mind, and China will be a solid trading partner, not a rival.  As it is, we’re becoming a nation of borrowers, not producers, and everyone from the President on down has to relearn the lesson of what made this country great.

  50. I would be cautious as to placing blame on our labor unions for all of the US jobs moving to Asia.  What is happening now is the same idea as slavery in early-American history. Making profit off of the sweat of others efforts.  The corporations are those who are responsible for shipping jobs away.  The primary goal of a corporation is take make maximum profit, by any means necessary.  This includes using cheap labor, child labor, moving manufacturing out of country and polluting on foreign soil.  These measures also contribute to the allocation of America’s wealth to the top five percent of its citizens.  What is most disturbing, our government subsidizes these corporations for moving jobs away. As long as the wealthy desire for more wealth, this country will play into an economic dependency to countries like China.

  51. I would be cautious as to placing blame on our labor unions for all of the US jobs moving to Asia.  What is happening now is the same idea as slavery in early-American history. Making profit off of the sweat of others efforts.  The corporations are those who are responsible for shipping jobs away.  The primary goal of a corporation is take make maximum profit, by any means necessary.  This includes using cheap labor, child labor, moving manufacturing out of country and polluting on foreign soil.  These measures also contribute to the allocation of America’s wealth to the top five percent of its citizens.  What is most disturbing, our government subsidizes these corporations for moving jobs away. As long as the wealthy desire for more wealth, this country will play into an economic dependency to countries like China.

  52. I would be cautious as to placing blame on our labor unions for all of the US jobs moving to Asia.  What is happening now is the same idea as slavery in early-American history. Making profit off of the sweat of others efforts.  The corporations are those who are responsible for shipping jobs away.  The primary goal of a corporation is take make maximum profit, by any means necessary.  This includes using cheap labor, child labor, moving manufacturing out of country and polluting on foreign soil.  These measures also contribute to the allocation of America’s wealth to the top five percent of its citizens.  What is most disturbing, our government subsidizes these corporations for moving jobs away. As long as the wealthy desire for more wealth, this country will play into an economic dependency to countries like China.

  53. The following from promisvouchers is completely bogus.  His kids have gone to the very same Jeffco Schools my kids have…PUBLIC schools.  I don’t know where the family attends church, but you can attend the church without sending your kids to the school.  I have SEEN Ed dropping off his daughter in the morning at the same school I am dropping my kid off at! And I have seen him at parent/teacher conferences at the same PUBLIC SCHOOL.

    STOP the LIES. 

    WARNING…complete bullshit below!
    “On that score, Ed’s vote in favor of using public money for private religious schools is troubling, especially since he sent his kids to private, religious school (Faith Bible).

    Posted by: promisevouchers? at December 7, 2005″ 11:00 AM

  55. Ed and Deana were married in 1980 and they are the proud parents of three daughters – Alexis (24), who works for Grassroots Democrats, Abby, who graduated from Wheat Ridge High School in 2005 and is currently attending the University of Northern Colorado and Zoey (14) a Freshman at Wheat Ridge High School.

  63. Japan has the largest per capita debt in the world.  China is eating everybody’s lunch; and then coming back for seconds.  Hell, most “Japanese” vehicles are made in the country they’re sold in.

    Fact is, multinational means just that.

    If one really wants for the United States to succeed, eliminate the 16,000 page tax code and institute the Fair Tax.  We must eliminate the influence of K-Street.  Otherwise it won’t matter how hard we work or how educated our children are because we will always be trying to compete with one arm tied behind our back.

  64. One more thing, I heard the CP commercial on the radio the other day.  It said that CP is “non-partisan”. 

    Well, maybe to the stupid or the ignorant.  CP is clearly left-leaning.

  65. Whoah.  Pols is advertising?  Cool.  Now that Teal has left the building, the active posters on ColoradoPols I think do lean to the Left; I don’t know who the third Dead Guv is or how “he” leans, since “he” never posts or at least not under his pen name…  Alva seems to be Left a bit, James moderately Right.  No more Red Hawk, so they need to fill a slot to balance Blue Sky.

    The commentary is definitely non-partisan, or at least evenly partisan.  Some days it looks like the righties are taking over the comments section, others the lefty types seem to dominate.  But overall I can’t complain about the commentary being unbalanced (some of the posters, maybe…)

    I’d say the partisanship mostly in the eye of the beholder.

  66. Come on Phoenix,

    CP has very little good to say about any GOP candidate.  They have been spoiling for a fight between Beauprez and Holtzman.  They love bagging on Musgrave any chance they get.  They call Tancredo “borderline nuts”.  I haven’t seen anything approaching this with regard to leftists. 

    Comments don’t count because we are obviously partisan (some of us on the right, some of us simply wrong).  Regardless, we don’t advertise ourselves as being “non-partisan”.

    When CP treats Democrats with the same “respect” as they treat Republicans, I will then consider them “non-partisan”.

  67. The Reagan Administration called Tancredo borderline nuts; does that make Reagan a left-winger?  None of the Colorado Democrats in the Congress rate very highly on partisan indices; they’re all moderate by most measures.  On the other hand, Colorado Republicans tend to rate quite far off to one end of the comparative scale, with Tancredo leading the way right near the right end of a 535-slot poll. 

    Aside from that, though, it seems to me like Alva is the one most often watching the shop; he seems to post from the Left, and so many of the stories seem like they’re coming from the Left.  Teal, as noted, hasn’t posted since taking up a role in Holtzman’s campaign.  They can only try with what they have…

    As to Beauprez vs. Holtzman, I don’t think you have to look any further than their respective campaigns to find someone itching for a fight.

    PS – they have been picking on Herb rather extensively.  And they don’t seem to like Joan Fitz-Gerald much, either.

  68. How can you make the claim that the Reagan administration called Tancredo nuts, Phoenix?
    He worked for the Reagan administration, as regional director for the department of Ed.  Have you fallen into your time warp again?

  69. B vs H,

    Sure, they are in the ring together, CP just wants to give them lead pipes instead of boxing gloves.

    The Reagan Administration?  Does that mean that if Beauprez becomes gov, CP will be calling him “Both Ways” four years from now?

    An aside: the GOP has governed like Democrats since Gingrich left.  This has caused quite a bit of dissention among conservatives.  Limbaugh called our anger (yeah, I’m pissed) a “crack down”, not a crack up. 

    If the GOP is to have a chance, many more of them will start sounding like Tancredo. You know, saying what conservatives think rather than hoping for a good op-ed from the NYT or the Washington Post (or favors from K-Street).  If the GOP base is lucky, Tancredo will be considered a middle-of-the-road conservative.

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