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October 04, 2011 06:12 PM UTC
19 Comments
tariffs bad
There were many of the same worries listed before that went into effect. But since it went in you don’t hear a lot, which generally means it’s working ok.
???
saying thousands of union members were murdered in Mexico. Maybe I missed it.
The apocalypse is nigh upon us . . . and, you’ve smack the hit head on the nail.
ohh, Nancy . . .
(But, on the bright side, if Obama is for it, you can be sure the Republicans have already figured a way to kill this deal.)
I’m always a bit leery of trade agreements with countries that have rampant human rights abuses and/or a complete lack of workers’ rights, because that strongly implies that the companies who branch out to those locations are doing so in a way which benefits from the aforementioned rights abuses.
Rarely do you hear anyone complain that we trade with England, Switzerland, France… and part of the reason for that is that our workers’ wages are not undercut by such trade, and as importantly (if a bit more caustic sounding)those countries have a populous with disposable income that can consume goods we export. I have a difficult time believing that the citizens of Columbia are clamoring to spend their vast wealth on imported US produced products. This setup leads logically to a high likelihood that we will be importing more products from Columbia than we export to Columbia, thus furthering our overall trade imbalances.
The other side of the coin is the argument that when we trade more with countries that leads not only to economic globalization, but also to sharing of cultural norms (like workers rights and a lack of homicide re: union organizers) that has the potential to benefit the citizens of Columbia. In this case, though, I’ve heard nothing of this trade deal requiring anything around the issue of making progress on rights violations. It could happen organically (as with wage and working conditions improving in India) but that kind of social arbitrage can take a very long time to occur on its own.
End of story, I’m probably against it. Though not against free trade in every case. Just depends on the circumstances.
This is indeed a complicated issue (like many others). With increased trade, ideas and values are also shared — it is a two-way street — some good, some bad. For example, China may have benefitted more economically than we have by us increasing trade with them, but on the other hand, how many of our cultural values are we passing on (not eating cats and dogs, for example) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D… that may be ethical improvements? On the other hand, we have hurt China by pushing beef and other nutritional habits on them, thus increasing their rates of cancer, diabetes, and other “western” diseases. (Historically, eating animal flesh in China was infrequent, and it was used more like a condiment. Cancer rates surged when each area became westernized and adopted our bad habits.)
We have been losing ground with unions (unions are a stamp of ethical evolution, IMHO) because of free trade, too, because it is difficult to have humane, egalitarian, safe employment practices and compete with countries who do not. On the other hand (like Zero Mostel in Fiddler on the Roof, we Jews have a lot of “other hands”), how much have we potentially elevated the humane treatment of workers in other places just by having these discussions?
Trade is a mess of contradictions, and sorting them out is never easy. When on the fence, I side with unions, however. They created the middle class in this country, and they have asked for little in return.
…except sometimes in person. Or online. 🙂
I should get around to posting more on Pols. Just never seem to have the time.
would be stronger if we didn’t already have trade agreements with countries like Mexico and China. Columbia isn’t the cheapest place in the world to offshore manufacturing jobs because shipping costs from Columbia are greater than from Mexico and wages there are higher than in China.
Columbian exports are only going to take place in industries that Columbia has a genuine geographic advantage in.
Okay – I’m really tired, but I’ll do my best to elaborate —
Nothing will be better for the people of Colombia, and its workers, than the implementation of free trade
Right now, Colombia is a developing country — and like so many developing countries — its economy is controlled by an ‘elite’ super-rich class
When evaluating poverty, it is a mistake to look at the gap between rich and poor, rather, one must look at upward mobility — the idea that a poor person could become rich
According to Geert Hofstede, Columbia’s upward mobility is terrible, with a PDI score of 67 (Venezuala’s is 73), indicating a terrible lack of upward mobility
With all that in mind, one could hypothesize that — again like so many developing countries — the ‘elite’ super rich of Colombia are holding the poor down, not because of a lack of social welfare, but because of a lack of availing opportunity, whether in the form of education or small business loans
The sad fact?
The ‘elite’ super rich can get away this, primarily because in Colombia — again, like so many developing countries — the primary JOB CREATOR is the domestic super rich
(Repeat that important point – Colombia has ONE job creator)
However, this system completely erodes and falls apart with the introduction of outside investment
Economic principle dictates that, should outside investors come into an entity, the domestic investors, immediately, have to match the prices and rights that are being offered by the outside investors — ultimately, a bidding war of greed starts, with the result that salaries will increase
Again, I’m tired, but I’m doing my best… going on…
Nonetheless, the best evidence of free trade and its creation of worker rights and civil liberties?
1. CHINA – since opening free trade with China around 2000, China is seeing its best spurts of civil rights and worker rights – yes, it is far from perfect, but China of 2011 is by far much better than China of 2001, in terms of rights and humanitarian work – as a matter of fact, reports are emerging that workers in China are starting to organize – imagine that happening 10 years ago?
2. The Arab Spring – important point here – every country that is currently protesting against its dictator (or kicked its dictator out) was a beneficiary of either free trade or major trade, opened by W Bush — W Bush opened a plethora of trade agreements with Muslim countries from 2001 to 2003 (out of 56 Muslim countries, I believe he opened trade with around 25 of them, with only around 5 opened previous to him), flooding these countries with outside money, ultimately meaning that the dictators (or super rich) were no longer the ‘ONLY JOB CREATORS’
The result of the Arab Spring is that middle classes are finally emerging, with money, and hunger to get even better rights and liberties — none of which would’ve happened had these economies not been opened
People need to have money in their pocket if they’re going to succeed – whether that money will go to pay for their child’s education or for the rifle that will kill the dictator, either way, they need MONEY
And you can’t open an economy and liberate it (and get money to people), if there is only ONE job creator (whether that be a dictator or a super-rich class)
Countries should be ruled by middle classes and nothing guarantees that result more than Capitalism
End
(I hope that helped?)
One method used by the ‘elite’ super rich of developing countries, primarily when they are in a position of being the ONLY JOB CREATOR, is indentured servitude and quasi-socialism
In many developing countries, the poor will be offered living quarters, clothing, and food, in exchange for work, but little to no cash – this means that one cannot save the money, get an education, or open a business, and free oneself from poverty
The cycle perpetuates with the children of indentured servants becoming tomorrow’s indentured
This was a cycle I commonly saw in my visits to Pakistan and it was only after W Bush opened aggressive trade with them (and lifted economic sanctions) in early 2000 that this system started to erode
Of note – Saddam Hussein’s ascent as the dictator of Iraq was accelerated by the Oil For Food program, which gave Hussein money for oil, on the basis that the Iraqi people were compensated with humanitarian aid (not money) – that accelerated the cycle of indentured servitude, leading General Anthony Zinni, in 1999, to declare that, despite 93 oppositional forces operating in Iraq, none could topple Saddam Hussein, due to the weakness of the people overall
(sorry I’m going by memory – I’m tired – if anyone’s interested, I’ll do my best to dig out footnotes)
Speaking as someone who is in an industry where we effectively have a world-wide free trade zone, the advantages well outweigh the disadvantages – on both sides. And it is a force for modernity for 2nd and 3rd world countries.
Free trade should increase exports from Columbia, which surely won’t add to the problem of extreme poverty there. Export industries almost always pay reasonable well compared to other jobs in the economy, and a lack of exports probably strengthens the strength of drug cartels which are engaged in a rather less savory export industry that surely is bad for the poor of Columbia.
Beef ranches and labor unions rarely overlap in either Columbia or the U.S., and engagement is probably a better way to encourage workers rights in Columbia than narrowing our ties with them.
It is unreasonable to insist that Columbia keep its still early stage developing economy pristine while advancing the propositioon that beef should be made in the U.S. because we’ve already cut down our forests so it is a lost cause, unless we want to compensate Columbia for the economic price it pays for that environmental restraint.
I’m quite sure that murder of labor union activists is illegal in Columbia, just as it was in the U.S. when it happened a lot here a century ago. The fact that there are criminals in a country who commit crimes is not a very compelling reason to impose tariffs. Killing school children and diplomats and taxi cab drivers is deplorable as well, but that isn’t a reason to end free trade with Mexico.
Of course, people in Columbia may very well want American goods and create U.S. jobs in the process.
Free trade ought to be a default unless there is a good reason otherwise, and I don’t see one in this case, although I’d be happy to learn of a good reason to oppose free trade with Columbia if there was one.
No “U.”
I have a Colombian friend and have learned how to spell it correctly. They really hate it when we get that wrong. 🙂
And like most Americans, you don’t seem to know much about the details of it. I suggest you brush up on Monsanto’s involvement in this deal and the implications for small farmers in Colombia if this deal goes through. Unless you are a big fan of Big Ag conglomerates that are forcing genetically altered and patented seeds on foreign countries…
Oh, and last time I checked, our trade deal is with the country of Colombia not the law school in New York.
but I think that “Little Ag” is far overrated.
usually say that.
The United States Institute for Peace has a good summary of current political situation in Colombia. Here is the link:
http://www.usip.org/countries-…