CO-04 (Special Election)
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(R) Greg Lopez
(R) Trisha Calvarese
90%
10%
President (To Win Colorado)
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(D) Joe Biden*
(R) Donald Trump
80%
20%↓
CO-01 (Denver)
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(D) Diana DeGette*
90%
CO-02 (Boulder-ish)
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(D) Joe Neguse*
90%
CO-03 (West & Southern CO)
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(D) Adam Frisch
(R) Jeff Hurd
(R) Ron Hanks
40%
30%
20%
CO-04 (Northeast-ish Colorado)
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(R) Lauren Boebert
(R) Deborah Flora
(R) J. Sonnenberg
30%↑
15%↑
10%↓
CO-05 (Colorado Springs)
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(R) Dave Williams
(R) Jeff Crank
50%↓
50%↑
CO-06 (Aurora)
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(D) Jason Crow*
90%
CO-07 (Jefferson County)
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(D) Brittany Pettersen
85%↑
CO-08 (Northern Colo.)
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(D) Yadira Caraveo
(R) Gabe Evans
(R) Janak Joshi
60%↑
35%↓
30%↑
State Senate Majority
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DEMOCRATS
REPUBLICANS
80%
20%
State House Majority
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DEMOCRATS
REPUBLICANS
95%
5%
October 26, 2010 07:42 PM UTC
73 Comments
Where did you learn your revisionist history?
This country was founded so that people could worship God as they chose. But God and religion were very much a part of government. Separation of church and state is found nowhere in the founding documents. It was only something written later by Jefferson, probably the least religious of the founders.
The country was most certainly NOT founded in order to change “Christmas trees” to “Holiday trees”.
It never happened.
Doesn’t make it true.
We’re not talking a matter of opinion. Read the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause in the First Amendment of the Constitution. The Supreme Court has ruled on this repeatedly. There’s no debate to be had on this.
Facts have no place in his arguments, though.
Where there’s smoke there’s fire. You guys must really hate Christians. In the language of the left, you would be called a Christophobe.
Lemon vs Kurtzman, 1971. The Supreme Court ( you know, the highest court in the 3rd branch of government) rules that there is a separation of church and state. PERIOD.
This leads to The Lemon Test – go ahead and use that gov’t server and do a Google search. You can also make a sstop here:
http://www.usconstitution.net/…
Afterwards, you can check to see if the primer is dry on your mid-term fender project…
All religions are equal in the eyes of the federal government and in the eyes of true patriotic Americans.
to include those that chose not to believe in any religion. these Americans are called atheists. They are just as equal as any other.
What you are espousing bj is intolerance to All but Christians. Thats NOT an American trait.
I suppose that’s why my Abortion/Creation/Christianity thread ginned up so many hateful comments towards Christians.
There wasn’t a single word of hate on that thread.
You can always go back and highlight just one hateful remark, and I’ll apologize if it is indeed hateful. Just remember – not seeing things your way isn’t hate, and anger isn’t hate either.
No response, as always, means I’m right and you’re wrong.
Clock’s ticking.
it is imposing one religion above another that is wrong.
The Abortion issue has a religious base. however imposing a ban on abortion BECAUSE of religion that makes that ban wrong.
Creation is different between most religions (indigenous and Imported European for example) and Science. Imposing creationism because of religion is also wrong.
the hate you refer stems from being forced to accept Christianity. just like you are afraid (and would be resentful/hateful) of being forced into believing in Islam.
isn’t sharia law the paranoia du-jur these days?
It is “hateful” to point out that your estimate of life on earth — 10,000 years ago, max — can’t be reconciled with evidence of life dating back 500 million years.
Or did Noah put dinosaurs in the ark?
That’s why there aren’t any today. They were all buried during the flood and turned to fossils.
Didn’t you pay attention to anything in home school?
(*God commanded him to — the dinosaurs had started to choose to lust after one another unnaturally.)
As well as a fraud and a liar.
BTW, I’m a world class Bridge player (therefore the metaphor) NOT a racist.
I actually found a reference to it as Macedonians being very blunt and calling a spade a spade. Personally, I prefer to call a spade an earth removal system.
All the religious leaders from all over Philadelphia and Pennsylvania linked arms together and led Ben’s Casket to the Cemetery. All of them gave eulogies heralding the SEPARATION of Church From the new Government.
George Washington Himself sent Diplomatic letters all over the world proclaiming the United States open for Business. Business that would not be hampered by religious fervor or any single religion.
the revisionist history you learned bj is the inaccurate one.
Such a sad statement for education when Social Studies caused History to become a footnote
Jefferson was the major contributor to that portion of the First Amendment, which was a condensation of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, composed in 1777 and enacted the year before the Constitutional Convention, which states in part:
Very observant man, Jefferson.
…that we were not a Christian nation, thus taking religion vs. religion out of the peace negotiations. No need to save Muslim faith.
Just to update you what you missed in your home schooling, this was the event known generally as the war with the Barbary pirates. It’s how the Marines got that line, “….to the shores of Tripoli.”
But hey, don’t let facts get in your deluded way. They never did, did they?
The whole damn country was founded by terrorists! THAT’S what the Tea Party is doing; righting that wrong.
Duh.
I’m sensing a new Da Vinci Code type movie to explain it all. Guess how it ends… Cultural Center? Yeah right.
Also, the Marines are a figment of your imagination. Why else would they be so short?
Hey Pars…did you mean to type Jefferson instead of Washington?
You may recall there are three equal branches of government.
The courts have clearly established the separation of church and state.
Jefferson, not yet president, established that such a concept was indeed on the minds of the Founding Fathers, including one who would go on to head the Executive Branch. Interestingly enough, in his letter Jefferson was reassuring a religious minority that they would remain free to worship as Baptists.
And notable, iconic Republican presidents have also supported this basic tenet of America.
Finally, the Legislative Branch has itself confirmed this notion, early in its history–when the spirit of the nation’s founding was fresh and alive–in ratifying the Treaty of Tripoli.
than posting a thoughtless line or two and having ten people go research why he’s wrong. He doesn’t care. It’s just about the attention for him.
There are thoughtful people on this blog who might not know the history of the Establishment Clause, and others who will no doubt find this blog via search engine. (ColoradoPols.com actually has pretty good rankings on Google…)
I’ve taken to summarizing into “BJWilson83 is a Big Fat Liar” when we’ve gone over a topic in detail before, but I’ll continue to post thoughtfully if the post is appropriate.
But his alter ego, Facebook agnostic Democrat David Chestnut, cares very very deeply.
you’re getting spanked & schooled but you seem to have shut up. You’re ‘revisionist history’ retort was just a cowardly little throw away … the likes of which everyone expects from an ill-informed, home-schooled cellar dweller. Guess you proudly hang your home school accredidation right up on your wall next to your TeaBagger revised copy of the Constitution.
So was George Washington.
A lot of the founders were unitarians, who specifically did not believe that Jesus was a deity.
However, the least religious of the Founders was probably Thomas Paine. He was an atheist.
As to protecting people from religious fanatics trying to force their views on other citizens — known as separation of church and state — try reading the first Amendment.
Numbnuts!
Or should I call you, David?
I don’t see anything in the constitution about Christmas trees, either? Which constitution are you looking at?
He’s a lawyer after all.
Except if you’re raped by your boyfriend.
They were selling t-shirts that had a Shepard Fairey stylized t-shirt with Jefferson’s face on it, underneath which it said “FAITH.”
I’m guessing most of the Beckheads, much like our friend Beej, didn’t make it to the Jefferson Memorial after the rally.
The No Religious Test Clause of the United States Constitution is found in Article VI, paragraph 3, and states that:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. [Froward emphasis]
You’re making poor bjob think. And he HATES that!
It’s the fault of those damn Democratic trackers!
so others that
thinkare misinformed like you, are now trying to undo 234 years of precedent with rewriting Texas schoolbooks!you do not have a leg to stand on in this arguement what so ever.
this would be a prime opportunity for you to gain some humility, admit you are wrong and learn something new.
After all, as Colbert points out:
(Colbert clip located at Colorado Independent.)
He chose to be a liar and a fool.
bjob was born that way.
The WH Chistmas tree is stillt he WH Christmas tree.
That story has been debunked so many times it’s hard to believe anyone could believe it.
(Though I gotta ask which part of the BIble directs us to have Christmas trees. My conservative Christian family members don’t have one – they think it’s a distraction from the real message of Christianity.)
And if Buck really believes the Constitution nor the laws of the US require separation of church and state, what does he think about a right to privacy? Not specifically spelled out in the Constitution – I’m not even sure the word privacy appears.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 clearly makes it illegal in the work environment. I find it suspect that anyone would question a fundamental princple. The original colonies were founded by people fleeing religious persecution.
I’m pretty sure that’s a goose they put on the scale, not a duck.
The first amendment establishment clause was not initially applied to the individual states under the Constitution. Massachusetts, for instance, had a system for state funding of churches (usually Congregationalism) until 1833. Connecticut had an established church until 1818. Apparently, it was due to action at the state, not the federal, level that the state support was removed. Madison proposed that the establishment clause would apply to the states, but the provision was voted down by Congress(So says Wikipedia, anyway.)
Like most of the rest of the Bill of Rights, I assume that the establishment and free exercise clauses were applied to the states as a result of the 14th amendment.
That’s my understanding. The first court ruling was in 1878.
Don’t get me wrong, as a card-(misplaced somewhere) member of Americans United, I care about the separation of church and state, and the effort to chrisianify the Constitution drives me bonkers. But if you think many like-minded folk were planning on voting for Buck until this “revelation” came along, you’re delusional. This does not move the election needle one bit. It just increases the despair I will feel if the Buckflipper pulls if off.
Well said.
We all have our buttons. The Buck video pushed mine.
Could well be that this video will get Buck more votes than it costs him.
But imagine living in a state represented by Senator Buck and Governor Trancredo. Talk about failure to support higher education coming back to bite you! I can’t imagine continuing to live in such a place.
I wonder how that combo would affect Aspen? How it would affect decisions by companies requiring high-intellect workers to set up shop here?
The point being not so much about Buck and Tancredo, but about a population that could vote either one into office.
Um, yes you do. You’ve said that a lot about various missteps and blunders – such as Suthers’ allowing that murderer to go free. “We don’t have to tell you how bad…”
And then the public lets out a collective yawn and a contented fart, rolls over, and goes back to sleep.
It’s an embarrassing moment for Buck, no question, but not a game-changer at this point.
Now, if he were to say that he had a first date on a satanic alter, and “there was blood” – well, we don’t need to tell you how bad THAT would be.
The problem for Buck is how they combine to create an image he doesn’t want. In the last week, the local (and even national) media have talked about Buck’s comments on homosexuality/alcoholism; global warming is a hoax; and now that he doesn’t believe in separation of church and state. One of those isn’t terrible, but one after the other after the other starts to paint a picture of Buck that will not be helpful with voters.
Not the liberal textbook version that you get in Boulder Valley public schools. The kind that actually tell it like it was.
There is a long, long, long, long, exhausting list of examples where government and religion were anything but separated–starting the day the Constitution was passed through the Convention. Feel free to bring up rulings some 200 years after that all you want, it doesn’t change history.
Pols tries (and fails miserably) to argue that the separation of church and state “was perhaps the primary reason that this country was founded.” This country was founded to escape religious persecution–not to escape religion. They were concerned with the government treating its people differently based on their particular religion, not with seeing a cross in a military cemetery or their kids hearing Christmas carols in school.
let me be the one who tells you that you’re wrong. First of all, this country was founded to provide economic opportunities. The king wasn’t being kindhearted and letting the Puritans and/or Catholics (depening on the king) have a place to call their own. Also, keep in mind that while excessive taxation might have been the straw that broke the camel’s back, the revolt happened because the Americans wanted to trade directly with the European markets and not have everything go through England first. That’s why all the Founding Fathers were merchants and large scale farmers.
Second of all, familiarize yourself with the debates surrounding whether the states should establish an official state religion. You’ll see what those who prevailed in that argument had to say about whether the state and the church should be separated or not.
I meant the Mayflower/1620 founding. And I assumed that’s what Pols meant when suggesting religious freedom “was perhaps the primary reason that this country was founded.”
And which debates are we referring to? And whichever debates you’re referring to, your logic doesn’t follow. Simply because the people who (you believe) prevailed in a debate over official state religions also believe that “church and state” should be separated does not automatically make them right on both counts. That’s ludicrous, piss-poor logic.
as evidenced by the fact that no state religion was ever established. But there were plenty of heated debates, and several of the opponents of state religion also argued for separation.
And sorry, but that’s a HUGE moving of the goalposts if you’re talking about Plymouth Rock. That was not the first colony in America, and they certainly weren’t in the business of founding a new nation. No one was even dreaming of that til well into the 18th Century.
The colonies were established by England for the purpose of exploiting the wealth of the New World as their rivals Spain had been doing for more than a century. Many of the original colonists were people without much opportunity in England – younger sons of nobility who weren’t in line to inherit anything, peasants displaced by enclosure, merchants seeking new opportunities, and yes, eventually, religious minorities dealing with oppression and the yo-yoing attitudes of the kings (this one’s Protestant! That one’s Catholic! Neither like Puritans!) A condition made even messier by the English Civil War and Oliver Cromwell’s Commonwealth, which happened after most of the colonies were established.
Now then, I want to quote your last paragraph in its entirety, as it highlights your complete unwillingness to be reasonable.
So you already know how the logic of a series of debates of which you’re ignorant will follow, do you? Tell me, wise one, how you could possible know that when you admitted that you didn’t know which debates I was talking about.
You may not be a total assclown, but you’ve got some work to do to convince me otherwise. You clearly don’t know your history but have the temerity to tell others to crack open a book about it. Nice work.
…I was working off the same assumption ColoradoPols was in stating that religious freedom was “perhaps the primary reason this country was founded.” Quit bullshitting me.
As for the last part, you’ve got to go back and read it again. I was making no assumptions, and never claimed to “know” anything regarding your mystery “debates.” You claimed that because Group A successfully argued Point X, Group A’s belief in Point Y was equally well founded. I don’t need to know which debates you’re talking about to know that that’s total crap.
Well, if you weren’t making an assumption, what do you call this leap you made here?
You can’t say my “logic doesn’t follow” when you didn’t know which debates I meant. You have to find that out first.
Further, since the country was founded with the American Revolution, there was no assumption that Pols meant the founding of the colonies.
Now that that’s established – that any talk of the founding of the United States means the events that took place during the latter third of the 18th Century – here’s my actual point. Group A successfully argued Point X, using Point Y to support Point X. Point Y being that religion and state should be separate. It’s not a matter of whether Point Y is “well founded,” it’s that it’s something many of the founding fathers believed our country should have. Which is important to understand because we have a lot of people going around claiming that they never intended for church and state to be separated. We have them on record arguing for just that.
Let me close that I believe you’re being disingenuous in this debate. You specifically talk about the existence of “examples where government and religion were anything but separated–starting the day the Constitution was passed through the Convention.” Followed by “Feel free to bring up rulings some 200 years after that all you want, it doesn’t change history.” But then you say you were talking about the Pilgrims landing at Plymouth Rock because you understood Pols to be talking about that time period. If so, why did you start with the Constitutional Convention? “I was being more general,” you say. My ass you were.
…who leads them in prayer before their proceedings.
Even before they elected a Chaplain, the Continental Congress held prayers before beginning their proceedings. Hmm…I bet it went something like this [take it away, Jacob Duche]:
That settles it then. Separation of church and state is a myth! Congress has a chaplain. Thanks for correcting me.
Seriously dude. Go learn your history. The Texas School Board approved version is slanted and incomplete.
The Puritans had approval from the London Company to form a settlement (which was supposed to be in the Virginia colony, except that the ship went off-course), and had with them a decent number of personnel hired by that Company who were supposed to help them build the settlement. The most famous member of the colony, Myles Standish, was never a Puritan according to records.
And the Puritans came to America as much to escape their persecution in England as to form their own religious state. Same with the Quakers, the Amish, a number of Catholics, and the list goes on.
As Ari notes, the ultimate result of the debate amongst the states, and at the Constitutional Convention, was that a government free from religion (and religions free from government) was the best way to cement the union and the people of this country.
See the rebuttals to bj’s similar post up above (in addition to Ari’s rebuttal to your own post…).