Friday Open Thread

“Writers who have nothing to say always strain for metaphors to say it in.”

–Florence King

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77 Community Comments, Facebook Comments

  1. VoyageurVoyageur says:

    Trump stinks.  And Great God Almighty, everything he touches stinks too!

  2. deathpigeon | they/them says:

    Looks like the Trump regime is sending Chelsea Manning back to prison for refusing to testify at a grand jury against fellow whistleblowers. They're jailing a political dissident for refusing to help with their secret attacks on political enemies. Manning is a hero who shouldn't have to deal with continued attacks from the US state.

    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

      Manning is a traitor who betrayed his country and put his fellow soldiers and America's friends at risk.  If he breaks the law again, he should go back to prison.  Maybe he and Paul Manafort can share a cell.

      • deathpigeon | they/them says:

        Chelsea Manning is a hero who exposed war crimes. Manning isn't a "he". Manning is a she. If her actions make her a traitor, then there's nothing wrong with being a traitor.

        • VoyageurVoyageur says:

          Manning is not a woman.  At the time of his treason, he was a gay man.  The whole "I'm a poor persecuted transexual " scam was just part of his cynical campaign to get out of prison.  Sadly, Obama did commute his sentence, the most shameful act this genuinely good president committed.  But he only commuted to a 7 year sentence — he did not pardon the treasonous acts.

          No, Bradley Manning isn't a woman.  He's Benedict Arnold in drag and every day he spends in prison is a day when American values are honored.

          • deathpigeon | they/them says:

            Fuck you. Manning is a trans woman. She is a woman. Her name is Chelsea Manning. You are an awful person.

            • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

              You might consider asking Pols to intervene. I think mis-gendering a trans person constitutes some kind of hate speech. Maybe not worth banning…..but a warning, at least, should ensue. Cook? Your thoughts?

              One doesn't have to agree with Manning's decisions to respect her gender identity – I personally think she was a whistleblower on US misdeeds in Iraq, not a traitor. By choosing to release to Wikileaks, she did ultimately play into the hands of the Russians, whose outlet wikileaks became – but she may or may not have realized that at the time.

               

              • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                Not just misgendering her. "he was a gay man", "He's Benedict Arnold in drag", etc are basically classic anti-trans narratives about how trans people are really just gay men or crossdressers faking it for attention. It's not acceptable to misgender trans people and it's even less acceptable to just blithely repeat narratives about us that have been used to justify our criminalization, violence against us, and a denial of our most basic rights.

              • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                Manning was and is a gay man.  His transgender kick was part of his effort to get out of prison.  To go along with that disrespects real transgendered people who are by and large loyal Americans.  There is no doubt about his crimes — he was convicted by a court of law  and Obama did NOT pardon him, only reducing his sentence.

                Tell me, would you have admired Benedict Arnold if he'd only have thought to wear a wig and a bra?

                 

                 

              • davebarnesdavebarnes says:

                "I think mis-gendering a trans person constitutes some kind of hate speech."
                Give me a break.

                • mamajama55mamajama55 says:

                  Here's your "break", yogi. It's a Twitter break. Twitter now includes "misgendering" or "deadnaming" as hate speech. And no, you won't go to jail for it – just don't repeatedly, intentionally call someone the wrong pronoun or name.

                  Think about it. If you accept the premise that "gender" exists not just in the physical body but in the mind and the spirit, and that those can sometimes not match, then you might understand and have a bit of compassion for those who struggle through their lives feeling like they don't even belong in their own skins.

                  Trying to make those two components of gender match is expensive and stressful. Trans people often take their lives in their hands every time they walk on the street or use the bathroom.

                  This is why it is important to use the person's preferred pronouns. They paid a price, literally and figuratively, and by surviving in a hostile world, to have that right to be who they are.  The least we can do is respect that.

                  • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                    I don't respect traitors or their lies.  Bradley manning lived as an openly gay man for years .  I don't think his transgender act is sincere.  And even if it was, that is no excuse for treason.

                    There was no evidence that he was emotionally a woman before he went to prison and started campaigning forva pardon as an oppressed transsexual.

                    Bradley Manning legally changed his name.  Fine.  But he is still a lying, hatreful traitor who gave aid and comfort to our enemies in time of war.

                    Put that in your politically correct pipe and smoke it.

                    • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                      *Chelsea

                      *her

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      Manning's criminal records are public documents.  He was living as an openly gay man when he betrayed his country and his name was bradley.  I don't mind calling him Chelsea today, since he legally changed his name.  But when discussing his treason, I will use the name he used in betraying us.  Since he also presented as a man when betraying us, I will take him at his word.

                       

                    • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                      *she

                      *she

                      *her

                      *her

                      *Chelsea

                      *her

                      *she

                      *her

                      *her

                      *she

                      *she

                      *her

                      *her

            • VoyageurVoyageur says:

              Manning is a traitor — and a man.  A lying, foul, Putin-loving man.  If you're stupid enough to fall for his con, be my guest.  But if he reads this, he'll scratch his hairy balls and laugh at how he fooled you.  

               

              • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                Shut the fuck up.

                • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                  Go soak your head in a toilet bowl.

                  • Colorado PolsColorado Pols says:

                    Just…stop

                    • JohnInDenverJohnInDenver says:

                      thank you …

                    • RepealAndReplace says:

                      Right Pols …. can’t we all just get along?

                      V., Manning is woman who was born a man but transitioned to becoming a woman. I cannot imagine someone would fake that for a collateral benefit.

                      And DeathBird, Manning is a traitor to my country, perhaps a hero in yours. On whatever planet that might be…

                    • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                      Thank you, Pols.

                      I should probably cool off a bit. Transphobia pisses me off.

                      And, Repeal, her "treason" was revealing war crimes done by American soldiers in Iraq.

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      Repeal, Manning long identified as a gay man before his conviction.  I have seen nothing other than his own claims to support his later claim to transstatus.  Would he fake that to get out off prison?  Well, it worked.

                  • Curmudgeon says:

                    Why is it so hard for you to just call someone what they want to be called?  

                     

                    • Diogenesdemar says:

                      Get off [his] lawn!

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      I call him what he is: a traitor.  You kind of sacrifice your PC rights when you betray your country: ask Benedict Arnold, err, Chelsea Arnold.

                    • Curmudgeon says:

                      Got a feeling the shrill flag-waving is just an excuse to do a little trans-bashing.

                      You do have a history, you know. 

                    • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                      *her

                      *she

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      Let me guess, Curmy.  You never served your country, right?  So the flag you wave is the same one Trump and Manning wave, the Russian Republic?  So if you like one Putin minion, Manning, so much, why do you dislike Putin's other lickspittle, Trump?

                      It's a puzzle.

                    • Curmudgeon says:

                      Not that it's any of your business, but yeah, I served. Got my DD-214, my Veteran hat, all that good stuff.

                      I don't have much of an opinion on Manning, but I'm not obsessed with their genitalia like you are.  

                      What else ya got? 

                       

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      Good for you, Curmy, you paid your dues. I still wonder why you worry about the fi-fis of traitors, but you earned the right to your opinions.

                    • Curmudgeon says:

                      Because according to the Constitution I took an oath to support and defend, everyone has rights, including convicted criminals. Did you not read that part? 

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      So, you claim the Constitution requires me to kiss the ass of traitors?  I missed that part, what section is it? My Constitution actually allows a death penalty for treason.

                    • Diogenesdemar says:

                      Yeah, well, “allows” doesn’t mean “requires” . . .

                      . . . and, anyway, there comes a point, when making a point doesn’t require an unending grinding of the point.  

                      Even a spider should get a rest once you’ve pinched the eighth leg off . . .

                    • Curmudgeon says:

                      What ass-kissing? And, yes, Death is a possible penalty for Treason.  Manning was sentenced.  As for kissing their ass, I don't recall where the Constitution addresses your sweaty imaginings.  

                      Christ Almighty, a freshman Pysch major would have a field day playing "Repressed Urges Bingo" with you.  You're practically an instant Blackout. 

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      Manning is a traitor in the common sense of the term, but legally the Constitutional definition "in time of war" has been held to mean only a declared war.   He was charged with 22 violations of the espionage act .  He was also convicted of wearing the ugliest wig in the history of western civilisation.

                       

                    • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                      I wasn't aware that the common sense of the term "traitor" was "someone who published evidence of American soldiers intentionally killing civilians".

                    • Curmudgeon says:

                      Wow, V..you sure do get catty when talking about Manning.  

                    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                      Deadbird, your hero pleaded guilty to ten counts of violating the espionage act.  He put hundreds of American lives at risk and, worse, the lives of our friends abroad.  If that's not a traitor, the word has no meaning.

                    • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                      V, I've not at any point claimed that Chelsea did not commit crimes. What I've said is that she was justified in doing so and, if you consider what she did treasonous, then treason is, quite frankly, good because what she did was revealed war crimes to the world. By breaking the espionage act, she did the right thing.

    • notaskinnycooknotaskinnycook says:

      No. Manning is a traitor who was lucky to only get prison; and then a reduced sentence. Those people were as bad as anything that's going on now in the Sad-ministration. Piss off the judge and you lands in jail.

      • deathpigeon | they/them says:

        Her "treason" was revealing war crimes American soldiers had been doing in Iraq to the world.

        And using grand juries in the way the Trump regime is using them against Chelsea Manning is common practice against political dissidents and was used heavily against the environmentalist movement. This isn't a new practice. This is standard operating procedure for jailing activists without trial.

  3. Diogenesdemar says:

    Manning is no hero, . . .

    . . .  not before, not now, and most likely not ever.

    What Manning is is a self-made victim of the highest degree.  [. . . and, just to be clear although I probably shouldn’t have to among the sane,  I don’t mean “self-made” in any of the sense that some fools here are probably gonna’ charge me with.]  “Yay for me for being a victim of my own criminality . . .”

    Cory Gardner is a fucking profile in courage compared to Manning, . . . but that doesn’t mean Manning deserves a return to jail, short of committing another crime.

    [Go crazy vvvvvvvv]

    PS — refusing to testify at a grand jury is also a crime.  You have the right to refuse to self-incriminate, but you don’t have any right to refuse to provide testimony (without some legimitate claim for confidentiality.)

    PPS — being a self-made victim does not yet, to my knowledge, qualify as a recognized legitimate claim for confidentiality.

     

    • deathpigeon | they/them says:

      So exposing war crimes at great personal risk to your own liberty isn't heroic, huh?

      • VoyageurVoyageur says:

        Manning gave an incredible 750,000 documents to Wikileaks and Vladimir Putin.  Many contained names and addresses of foreign nationals friendly to the U.S.  — thereby putting our friends at risk to Isis et all.  It goes without saying that he never read most ofvthe documents he leaked to our enemies.  In several cases, we gave "outed" foreign nationals new identities to save them from terrorist attacks.  Manning's extreme indifference to human life marks him as the vilest of traitors.

        As an American soldier, I didn't have a lot of rights.  But I earned the right to hate traitors and Manning is a traitor of the low est stripe.

        • deathpigeon | they/them says:

          *she

          Also, the military aren't our friends.

          • VoyageurVoyageur says:

            We, the military — I left WestPoint as an e-5, which is a buck sergeant rank — protected this country. Without us, kid, you'd be studying Japanese to beg your concentration camp guard for a crust of bread.

            Guys like Manning think al-qeda and Putin are nice guys.  We veterans know better.

            Too bad you will never serve.  With your obsessive compulsive disorder you might have made a good drill sergeant.

            • deathpigeon | they/them says:

              How were you protecting us when you invaded Iraq?

              • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                How were you protecting us when Manning's buddies were killing my comrades??

                 

                Soldiers don’t choose their wars, but your right to defend traitors like Snowden exist only because brave men like my father in law fought in Normandy.
                You have the right to disrespect veterans. But only because some of us died to get you that right.
                Think about that next time you cheer a traitor.

                • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                  I wasn't. No American soldier in Iraq was protecting Americans. Nor were they doing so in Afghanistan. Those were imperialistic wars meant to extend American dominance in the region. Frankly, Iraqis attacking Americans were fighting back against an invading army and were more in the right than Americans attacking Iraqis as a result.

                  • VoyageurVoyageur says:

                    So, you love the Taliban more than America.  Why am I not surprised? 

                    Do you have any idea what they would do to you if they had the power?  

                    No?

                    Don't worry, we veterans defend.the rights of all Americans.

                    Its a vet thing.  I don't expect you to understand.

                    • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                      It frankly doesn't matter whether I love the Taliban more than America or the reverse. I'm no fan of either. The fact is that the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraqis and Afghans were fully justified in defending themselves and the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan weren't defending and liberty for Americans.

                      I mean, if, idk, Canada invaded the US, it doesn't matter if I think Canada is better than the US, I'd still think Americans would be justified in shooting invading Canadian soldiers and frustrating their efforts to occupy the US and I'd hold no illusions that the invading Canadian soldiers were doing anything to protect the liberty of Canadian citizens. The same holds true to the American invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

                    • RepealAndReplace says:

                      I imagine the Taliban would not take the time to refer to Death Pidgeon as they/them/their. They would probably just stone them to death.

                    • deathpigeon | they/them says:

                      That doesn't actually matter, Repeal. The legitimacy of the Taliban is not up for debate as they're clearly illegitimate. That doesn't provide the US legitimacy to invade Afghanistan, forcibly topple their government, and install a government to our liking. The Taliban were bad, but that does nothing to justify the war in Afghanistan.

                  • Genghis says:

                    Nor were they doing so in Afghanistan.

                    Whaddaya mean "were"? 🙂 The  war in Afghanistan continues, as does U.S. involvement. In fact, the youngest U.S. soldiers currently serving in Afghanistan weren't born when the war  began.

                    That's one way we can surmise that America is in its early death throes. Being in a perpetual state of hot war has never boded well for a superpower's long-term health.

      • Diogenesdemar says:

        Yeah, well, if that were what happened, and if no laws were broken, but it isn’t and it wasn’t, so . . . 

        . . . and anyway, above you wrote something about not having to agree.  I don’t.

        But, . . . would you be half so admiring of Manning, if Manning were a middle-aged, white, married, heterosexual, male?  I rather doubt it.

        To me, being equal under the law includes being equally  responsible for yourself, equally responsible for your actions, and if crimes are committed, equally responsibles for your crimes you commit.  

        YMMV.  I, personally, don’t really care.

        Don’t waste your time trying to goad me.

         

        • deathpigeon | they/them says:

          It doesn't matter if laws were broken, tbh. Revealing war crimes by breaking the law is good.

          And I admire Snowden for revealing the spying the US government has done, and he's a cishet white guy, so I don't know what you're point is.

          • Diogenesdemar says:

            Sorry.  Manning could have done everything good that Manning did, without breaking the laws that Manning broke.  There are processes and procedures for exposing crimes without comitting crimes.

            I don’t believe that Manning’s motives were anywhere near as pure as you would like to portray.  And, I don’t believe the reasons for your misportrayal are anywhere near as pure as you would like us here to believe.

            PS.  BTW, Snowden is no hero either. Study the story of Hugh Thompson Jr.; it’s past time you start learning something about how to pick heroes.

    • VoyageurVoyageur says:

      You sort of contradict yourself dio when you say manning doesn't deserve to go back to jail unless he commits another crime — then you admit failure to testify is a crime.

      However, you are right on the latter.  Our boy Chelsea is back in the clink for contempt.  He will stay there until he testifies or until the grand jury's term ends.  As with all such cases, he holds the key to the jail house door — if he obeys the court order, he will be set free.

      • deathpigeon | they/them says:

        *she

      • Diogenesdemar says:

        Failure to testify is a crime.  And, another bad choice that Manning is making.  

        My point, for DP’s benefit, was that Manning wouldn’t be going back to jail short of committing another.

        (Plus, I wanted to demonstrate that an argument against the ridiculous could be made here without being gratuitously inflammatory.)

    • RepealAndReplace says:

      "Yay for me for being a victim of my own criminality"

      That is actually a volunteer, not a victim. Like her friend, Edward Snowden. How did things work out for him in Russia?

  4. PseudonymousPseudonymous says:

    cc: Jared Polis

    Boy spent 47 agonizing days in ICU with tetanus. Parents still refuse vaccines

    When he arrived at the hospital he was suffering jaw muscle spasms. He indicated he wanted some water but couldn’t open his mouth enough to drink it. Some of his muscles necessary for breathing also started spasming, throwing the boy into respiratory distress. He had to be sedated, intubated, and placed on mechanical ventilation.

    At this point, doctors admitted him to the intensive care unit, where they kept him in a dark room with ear plugs to avoid stimulating him, which can exacerbate the muscle spasms. They treated him with antibiotics and gave him a shot of a tetanus vaccine (DTaP). Still, his condition worsened. His heart raced, his blood pressure went up, and his body temperature spiked to nearly 105 degrees Fahrenheit. Doctors gave him multiple intravenous drugs to control his blood pressure, pain, and muscle spasms. They also performed a tracheostomy, cutting a hole in his neck for prolonged ventilator support.

    The boy stayed like this for 35 days.

    • RepealAndReplace says:

      You need a license to fish but absolutely anyone can procreate if they can figure out how to insert Part A into Part B.

      Some people are too stupid to be parents. Darwin predicted the long term solution but unfortunately children may suffer in the short term.

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