Monday Open Thread

“Those that despise people will never get the best out of others and themselves.”

–Alexis de Tocqueville

33 Community Comments, Facebook Comments

  1. Davie says:

    New polling results via CU:

    Coloradans narrowly support a statewide tax increase for schools and bigger setbacks for drilling, according to a new poll from the University of Colorado’s American Politics Research Lab.

    In the first public poll results released on these issues, 58 percent of respondents said they would vote yes for Amendment 73, which would raise taxes on individuals making more than $150,000 a year and corporations. Because it’s a constitutional amendment, it needs 55 percent to pass.

    Meanwhile, 52 percent of voters said they support Proposition 112, which would require new oil and gas wells to be at least 2,500 feet away from buildings.

    My personal opinion is that the mood of voters is impatience with our state legislators.  Many of the issues show strong support in this poll.  Unfortunately, that includes the O&G poison pill Amendment 74 which via a seeming pitch for "fairness" actually throws open the doors to endless lawsuits further tying the hands of local and state governments merely wanting to perform their normal duties and serve their constituents.

    Oh, but the good news is that Stumbleton is losing support with voters smiley

    More details also available here:

    • OpenSpace says:

      Which issues require 55% and which only need a simple majority?

    • Duke Cox says:

      As I have noted before.

      Amendment 74 is a direct response from the O&G industry to the threat of Prop 112. They want legal standing to sue your ass into oblivion if you try to protect your home from the awful reality of living next door to a gas well…or 20.

      The Oily Boys do not give a shit about your health and safety. Remember…they brag incessantly about how far their new directional technology can reach to get at resources…but they spend millions to prevent being required to use it.

      Doesn't make sense? Beyond all the other factors involved, Oily Boys DO NOT accept being told what to do. To the guys who run the petroleum companies, "planning" means "we will tell you what we are going to do, get busy adjusting to it."

      There is only one way to protect your home and your family from the ruthless occupation of your neighborhood and a full scale industrial assault on your health and safety. Vote for 112 as though your life depends on it…it just might.

      Ask the friends and family of Chris Mobaldi…among countless others.

      • Voyageur says:

        Well, at least if the freeze in the dark crowd succeeds in destroying 50,000 jobs and billions in tax revenues, we'll have the consolation that amendment 74 will sue us into bankruptcy anyway.  No on 74.  Hell no on 112.  Yes on X, it's better than sex!

        • Duke Cox says:

          50,000jobs…? How many times does that claim have to be debunked? There were never 50,000 O&G jobs in this state. Not even close.

          Billions in tax revenue?…which we give right back to them in write-offs and tax breaks? The principle villian there being the ad valorem credit? What do you suppose V.,? I seem to recall the Oily Boys get about $300,000,000 per year off their property taxes. 20 years of that? Do you really think they have EVER carried their own load?

          CDOT has spent millions on the western slope enlarging roundabouts, rebuilding road foundations, adding highway exits, even rebuilding the main street of Collbran, a very small town on a state highway. The incessant traffic of heavy rigs destroyed their water system (which was under the street).

          After all the associated costs ( pollution, property damage, social impacts,etc.) coupled with all the discounts and paybacks, I would not be surprised if O&G development isn't a net loss to the state. 


          • Voyageur says:

            You sure hates you some oil and gas guys, Duke.  But, 1, you only get hundreds of millions in tax credits if you pay billions in taxes, as the industry does.

            2.  Each primary job in industry supports about three secondary jobs in retail, services, education etc..    Elsewhere on this page Johnt documents that 112 will "only" cost 20,000 jobs in the industry.  Alas, with the multiplier that is 80,000 lost in total.   My estimate of 50,000 net losses is thus a bit low, though it won't all happen the first year.Those lost jobs may include my brother in law and nephew, both mechanics employed by anadarko, so forgive if if I don't share your joy that even 20,000 lose jobs due to this extremist scheme.

        • The realist says:

          Really, the debate is much more meaningful when the truth is a core part of it. Here's some: "The oil and gas industry, through its political arm Protect Colorado, has raised an unprecedented $38 million this election cycle." They've got money to burn to convince Coloradans their safety is less important than the profits of the oil and gas industry. Prop 112 will not change the siting of existing oil and gas rigs – it will only apply to new ones. The industry will be fine. Sadly, the industry wants to retain virtually total control of how they do business. Regulations are for the little people.

          • Voyageur says:

            This will shock you, unreal one, but existing oil and gas well are finite.  By precluding new drilling you will force new supplies to be imported from wyoming, kansas nebraska and other nonStalinist states.  That means thousand of jobs and billions in taxes will go to those states.  It will also put huge new pressure on federal lands like the roan plateau.

            • The realist says:

              Nope, won't preclude new drilling. Instead, 112 will get the "pig farm off Main Street," so to speak. Directional drilling technology will serve communities and the industry well.


              • Conserv. Head Banger says:

                Vote NO on 74 AND 112.

              • Voyageur says:

                Even with directional drilling you need a suitable site for the pad.  And it's not a 2500 foot setback, it's 2500, plus 5000 for the next dwelling, 5,000 more for the next, 5,000 for the one after that etc.  The lefty game never ends.  The current setback, in most cases, is 500.thenew is 2,500 in all directions, not quite a square mile.  That is 25 times bigger!  500 squared vs. 2,500 squared.

                Take a checker board and let black represent land where drilling is now banned, red where you can drill beyond the 500 footsetback.

                Next increase all black squares by 2,500 percent.

                Guess what — there is no red left.

                Prop 122 backers  are lying when they say their setback is only 2,500 feet.  It is cumulative as long as there is another dwelling within a mile of the last one.

                Even in my sparsely settled phillips county, most sections have more than one building per square mile.

                Vote not only no, but hell no!

  2. itlduso says:

    Two thoughts on the Crow/Coffman race in CD6:

    1) Despite reports of the GOP pulling out of this race, I saw lots of anti-Crow ads played over the weekend.  Sure, maybe those ads had already been scheduled and there won't be as many in the remaining days, but the fact is that the GOP has matched the pro-Crow ads one week after voting has started.

    2) One of the anti-Crow ads ominously notes that Jason Crow has received donations from "lawyers", "lobbyists" and "activists".  Whether or not you are a lawyer or lobbyist, I guess all of us who donated to Jason Crow might be labeled an "activist".  So, essentially the GOP is condemning all of us who wrote a check, for whatever amount, as a threat to our country.  Not the GOP donors to Coffman, of course.  No, just those ordinary citizens who chose to help Jason Crow.  I think  that's scary.

  3. mike says:

    Faye Griffin : We remember the "Bridge to Nowhere” near Southwest Plaza Mall

    Denver Post

    Pedestrian “Bridge to Nowhere” near Southwest Plaza Mall in Jefferson County is still contentious

    By Joe Vaccarelli | and | YourHub

    PUBLISHED: April 8, 2014 at 4:10 am | UPDATED: April 27, 2016 at 7:43 am


    District 1 Commissioner Faye Griffin is the only current member who was on the board when the bridge was approved. She was elected to the board in 2008.

    She said discussions started as early as 2003 and that the input the board received from county employees was overwhelmingly positive. She said if she had the vote to do over, she would still consider approving the bridge, noting that she wouldn’t want to wait for a tragic event to occur.


    Columbine Courier

    A bridge too useless?

    Commissioners concede Wadsworth-Bowles span has found very few fans

    By Emile Hallez

    Tuesday, November 22, 2011 at 2:21 pm


    All three Jeffco commissioners conceded last week that, in hindsight, construction of the massive pedestrian bridge over Wadsworth Boulevard was a poor use of federal and local sales-tax money compared to other road projects throughout South Jeffco.

    Though the commissioners didn’t exactly praise the $3 million construction project at an Oct. 20 citizen-input meeting, Commissioners Faye Griffin and Don Rosier said that $1.35 million in South Jeffco sale-tax revenue had to be used in the area. Further, they said, the project was initiated in 2002, a time when the economic outlook was far from grim.


  4. Davie says:

    What can you do if you are a fearful, paranoid, white, Christian bigot
    (almost certainly of the Republican persuasion) that sees a black person minding their own business?



    In this satirical infomercial, the comedian and actress Niecy Nash plays the inventor of a new hotline, 1-844-WYT-FEAR. The video advertises a phone service for white people to call when they can’t cope with black people living their lives near them. The hotline is up and running, so give it a ring and spread the word. (Seriously.)

    The phenomenon of white people harassing African-Americans going about their day is nothing new, but with the ubiquity of smartphones and social media, everyone can now see how these injustices are played out and lead to anxiety for and material harm to people of color. And this problem is bigger than a few unreasonable white people. Racist stereotypes are baked into our society.

    The article lists 39 instances of white bigots calling 911 fitting the above circumstances

  5. Pseudonymous says:

    Sending up the Bowman signal on this one:

    Sudden opposition flares toward Amendment X, the hemp measure unanimously approved by the Colorado legislature

    Attorney Rob Corry has ramped up 11th-hour opposition to Amendment X, arguing the legislature-floated ballot question could hurt Colorado’s nascent hemp industry if it passes. He fears the amendment could allow the federal government to define hemp, “which would destroy our hemp industry,” he said on Friday, shortly after posting a letter asking Colorado lawmakers who supported the bill to debate the proposed amendment to the constitution.

    Right now, Colorado law says hemp cannot contain more than 0.3 percent THC, the psychoactive compound that makes marijuana stony.

    Amendment X, which went through legislative committee meetings and was unanimously approved by the legislature, asks voters to amend the constitution by removing the definition of industrial hemp created in Amendment 64, which legalized recreational use and sale of marijuana. Amendment X allows the definition to be created by “federal law or state statute.

  6. Davie says:

    Good news if you think Denver needs to take a breather on its rapid growth spurt of the last 5 years: Inc. has circled back to revisit or re-contact a handful of cities on its list of potential locations for its $5 billion second headquarters — and a report on those follow-ups doesn’t mention Denver.

    A report Friday from The Wall Street Journal, says Amazon executives have made follow-up visits to some of the finalist locations.

    Says the WSJ:

    “The visits over the past couple of months include New York City, Newark, N.J., and Chicago, according to people familiar with the matter. In addition, Amazon has been following up with other locations, including Miami and the Washington, D.C.-area, according to some of the people.”

    However, developers that have flooded the city with luxury rental apartment buildings might be a little worried.

  7. Voyageur says:

    No on 74.  Hell no on 112. 
    Yes on X, it's better than sex!

    • JohnInDenver says:

      That's a heck of a multiplier effect you've got there, Voyageur.

      Prior to the politicized efforts on determining economic impacts, last November's estimate of Colorado’s natural-resources sector, according to the Denver Post's reporting on a release from the Colorado Department of Labor and Employment, showed an update/correction:

      Employment in the sector, in which about eight of 10 jobs are linked to oil and gas, is now estimated at 25,400 rather than the 21,500 initially reported earlier this month,

      My math isn't REAL good, but I think 80% of 25,400 is about 20,100 jobs that could CONCEIVABLY be impacted by the amendment, if EVERYTHING shut down.  Then consider existing infrastructure will need to be maintained and some spots will continue to be available for drilling (on federal lands, if nowhere else),

      Baker Hughes reports 32 rigs operating in Colorado at last count — no one I've seen is estimating how many will remain.

      Claiming EVERYTHING will shut down and that for every job in the sector, 1.5 other jobs will also be shut down (in order to get to your 50,000) seems a bit of an overreach.

      And I say that with all respect and remind you I'm going to be a no vote, as putting a single limit on all circumstances seems like a bad idea to me.

      • Voyageur says:

        Standard multiplier is about three secondary jobs in retail and servicesfor each primary job.

        So, yeah, a loss of 50,000 jobs is, if anything, an underestimate of the damage of.112, though all the hits won't be in the first year.   Yes, the damage is cumulative.

        As for the reason you vote no, I don't care.   Though I remind you, 112 has been proven to causemale pattern baldness.☺

        • spaceman65 says:

          Sorry, V, but I just dropped off 3 yes votes on 112 (plus 3 no votes on 74).  And I think the voters will do the sensible thing, despite your energetic protests.  If you really want energy jobs, renewables is where to find them.  

          • Voyageur says:

            If voters do the sensible thing, they will crush 112.  If it passes, we'll just sue your ass anyway.  We don't need 74, 122 is a takings under the federal 5th amendment.   See you in court.

    • ajb says:

      Hey V, maybe you can answer this:

      112 increases the setback to 2500 ft. 

      Over 70% of O&G wells are now drilled horizontally (and fracked).

      So my question is: Why can't O&G locate their wells 2000' further away and still access/recover the O&G via horizontal drilling?

      Assuming they can, then O&G is looking at what appears to be a marginal increase in costs (they were going to drill horizontally anyway). As for the idea that 85% of all oil and gas will be rendered inaccessible by 112, if I'm right, then that's just not true. 

      • Voyageur says:

        112 doesn't reqire a one timesetback.  It forbids all drilling within about a square mile of any dwelling.  So if I move my drill 2500 feetnorth of your house, it turns out to be 2500 feet south of Duke's yurt.  So I got to go another mile (the setback is2500 feet i  all directions.   Oops, that's within 2500 feet of davey's house so on we go.

        The madness doesn't stop until we reach the Wyoming border.

        Thete are also setbacks for other things, like dry creek beds.

        The Colorado oil and gas conservation commission estimates this blocks 85 

        Percent of Colorado private land from production.

        So, vote to destroy the i ndustry if you really hate it, asDuk e does .

        But don't kid yourself that it is in any way reasonable.   It pile s  setback after setback, without end.

  8. Davie says:

    Nutteranus (and about 25% of the US population) explained:

    Why Trump’s Supporters Will Believe Any Lie He Tells

    From Kavanaugh to Khashoggi, they are immune to the truth.

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