Swastikas and hanging effigies are no longer just for KKK meetings; they’ve made a strong reappearance in the public forum during the health care debate of the last few weeks. Ignoring the irony of white conservatives labeling black congressmen and half-black presidents Nazis, there is a lot at stake with the public perception of these acts. The rational mind would think that the majority the public would see these acts as horrifying, terrorizing, and unacceptable, pushing these racist people further into isolation. However, the ‘outrage’ over these acts has been fairly tepid considering how the country was up in arms over ‘nappy headed hos.’
While many Democrats may be thinking to themselves, “This is great, the wingnuts have shot themselves in the foot again with their over-the-top antics,” public polls are showing that an alarming number of people are aligning with these folks in the health care debate. I am not suggesting that anyone that is against health care reform is racist, but there is a big societal danger when the majority of people follow leaders like Rush Limbaugh who openly use these racist tactics. Not only are the Democrats at risk in losing the much needed health care reform issue, the whole country is at risk of rescinding the Civil Rights Movement by allowing these tactics to gain strength and go unpunished.
The answer is to stop taking the intellectual high road. Yes, it would be ideal to debate the issues surrounding health care in a civil manner, but one only one party agrees to a debate, you don’t have a debate. Democrats need to focus on promoting and exposing the looniest of the looney.
The majority of America doesn’t know what’s wrong with health care or how bad it is…and they don’t care to learn. This doesn’t mean that they couldn’t potentially be for reform. However, Democrats are not going to reach the apathetic majority with education, they will only reach them by showing how nutty the people are that oppose reform; it is a much easier and emotional sell.
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are you suggesting its racist to oppose health care reform (what a misnomer) because the public face of reform is President Obama ?
You say you’re not, but that is suggested in your post.
Why do you call Obama “half-black ?” Do you call anyone else that ?
Is shouting down a speaker a “racist” tactic, in your view ? Does disagreeing with you make someone a racist ?
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… on AM760 had a discussion along these lines, and had an author on to talk about it. The topic was the use of “socialism” and “Nazi” as codewords for racist sentiment. It was an interesting discussion, and I can see some of it. Essentially, the author notes that “socialism” is equated to redistribution of wealth, which is tied to redistributing to people you don’t want to give a lift up to, who are lesser than you – which in this country tends to tie in to racial and immigration issues. And Nazis went after an ethnic group – Jews – and so by calling Obama a Nazi you tie him in to these racial targeting actions – against white people, because he’s black. Buy it or not, it’s some interesting psychological analysis.
There are a number of talkers out there – Beck and Limbaugh are two – that are outright calling Obama’s social agenda as “reparations plus”, and saying that Obama hates white people. They tie the concepts they imagine they’re seeing in to the “socialist” and “Nazi” talking points… And, much as I credit right-wing talkers with being completely mad, I also don’t think they’re dumb or unconnected. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if this was a Luntz wordsmithing special.
I don’t think most of the masses saying “socialist” or “Nazi” or out protesting the health care reform package really (consciously?) buy in to the racist aspect. Most of the folks protesting the health care reforms seem to be misinformed and fearful folks like the Medicare recipients who are already either in an Exchange (Medicare Advantage) or are in a public option (traditional Medicare) – both single-payer, and both providing at least as much choice as your average health plan, BTW.
I suffer from a lack of posting confidence.
Sometimes I need to say things twice…
I don’t think most of the masses saying “socialist” or “Nazi” or out protesting the health care reform package really (consciously?) buy in to the racist aspect. Most of the folks protesting the health care reforms seem to be misinformed and fearful folks like the Medicare recipients who are already either in an Exchange (Medicare Advantage) or are in a public option (traditional Medicare) – both single-payer, and both providing at least as much choice as your average health plan, BTW.
but all racists are conservatives.
Most racists also oppose health care reform. Other opponents of health care reform seem to find it convenient to have racists around, since that’s the easiest way to swell their numbers.
If the fact that the loudest opponents of health care reform (misnomer or otherwise) are racists embarrasses you, do something about it.
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all.
what do other people think ?
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Are you being serious, SXP?
All racists are conservative?
Racists are conservative, as a rule.
If you want to play the 100% game, where you find a single racist out of ten million who’s a Democrat and thereby disprove my point, fine. OK, I’m wrong.
99.99% of racists are conservatives. Consider my crow eaten.
Racists are racists.
Wow, you found the 0.01% of racists who are not registered Republicans. I never would have predicted that was possible.
Out for the day, have a good one.
Racism is a “conservative” trait – the fear of other races tends to come from a fear of loss or change, which is essentially the classical definition of “conservative”.
But, I’m sorry sxp, it’s not like conservatism is limited to the Republican (and further right) parties. Democrats and even Greens have their share of people who, while liberal in other matters, are conservative in terms of racial relations.
But forget to directly answer a couple of your questions:
1. No, I dont think opposing health care reform is racist, as I said in my diary.
2. I call Obama half-black because that is what he is (would you prefer half-white, or half and half?). His race only matters in the context of the irony that someone who would’ve been targeted in the Final Solution is now being labeled as trying to start that in America.
3. Shouting down speakers is not a racist tactic…unless holding a lynched effigy or a Hitler-stached Obama poster.
4. Disagreeing with me does not make you a racist…but as pointed out later in this chain, all racists you will find on one side of the health care reform argument and it’s not my side.
This is the confederate flag t-shirt he saves for special occasions.
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my bad.
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Exactly what you find to be racist in that picture, if you would.
I have family friends who are huge Lynyrd Skynyrd fans. They always go to the concerts, and they died a little the day of that ill-fated plane crash.
But when they go to Skynyrd shows and that great big stars and bars comes down from the rafters for ‘Sweet Home Alabama’ they always leave. For them, their love of the band stops when the confederate flag comes up.
It’s a racist symbol whether the person wearing it is racist or not.
Is that all that represented racism in that picture though? A Skynyrd shirt?
I know that’s an awfully impolite and politically incorrect thing to say, but yeah. It’s fucking racist. And Lynyrd Skynyrd was a band full of cowards who could never quite commit to being racist or anti-racist, so I don’t shed a tear for them. Sorry, that’s awfully rude of me.
And the whole “would Barack Obama’s mother have aborted him if abortion were easily available back then to poor white women who had sex with black men” question, yeah, that’s fucking racist too. Once again, all apologies for being so terribly politically incorrect.
Barron, it sounds like your argument is that labeling Obama a Nazi is not racist, rather these people actaully understand what a National Socialist society is, and that Obama is creating one. My point is, these people have no idea what that is and are using the Swastikas with a very racially-charged undertone with no regard to actually thinking his policies are in line with National Socialism.
It would be like saying a burning cross in the front lawn of the White House isn’t racist…they just object that Obama is not Southern Baptist.
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burning a cross in Lafayette Circle while the Obamas live there (no chance of that happening on WH grounds) would be an overt racist threat to the occupants.
I suspect that at least some who bring swastikas to Town Halls are trying to suggest suggest that the ties between industry and government are too close, too cozy, corroding of public trust and confidence, and putting the interests of the Corporation ahead of the interests of the citizen. Yes, its legit to also read something into the symbol as racist, because Nazi-ism wasn’t just fascist, it was racist-genocidal.
The bundle of sticks il Duce used might be a better symbol of fascism on one level, but these people are going for the visceral reaction that the bent cross elicits. I don’t believe an overtly racist current is intended uniformly.
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you’re grossly overestimating how much knowledge the people who are carrying signs with swastikas have of Nazism and fascism in general.
If it was because of the reasons you mentioned, then it would make perfect sense (especially considering the Obama Admin caving in to the drug industry on them carrying their weight with the costs) but I think it has little to do with corporate-government intertwining and everything to do with the “death panel” and “second holocaust” rhetoric.
but you do agree that there is a racist undertone there. Some may use the bent cross, as you say, because they perceive the administration to be facist. However, I believe the majority of those using the swastika because of sheer racism; including the leader of the movement, Rush Limbaugh.
These protestors are shouting, “I want my country back!” Back from what? You can try to make excuses but the reality is that they want their country back from a darkie who stole it from them.
It’s the same reason why 2/3 of Republicans don’t believe Obama was born in America. There is ample proof that he was born here, but the underlying issue is that they are afraid of minorities…especially minorities in power.
It’s idiotic. Really.
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo…
Sorry, I was rounding up…but still a majority which is very, very sad
though that’d be higher for the Republican breakdown. I’d say that’s pretty darn near 2/3. But LB’s right, it is idiotic, and very, very widespread.
One of them was that at some point in the history of the south, people painted swastikas on the homes and businesses and churches of black people. Not because it was a commentary on how black people had become just like Adolf Hitler, and how that’s actually a really intelligent thing to say, but because they wanted black people to know they’d kill them just as surely as Hitler’s Nazis did.
That was the point of the swastika. At some point we knew that and were mature enough to admit it.
The swastika is a racist symbol. We can try to be polite to each other and pretend the guys carrying and painting swastikas are not actually racist, but to whom are we really doing a favor?
Why do we work so hard to avoid offending those sensitive, easily offended racists?
I say, fuck them gently with a chainsaw. To paraphrase the darling of the right, “Racist talks tough, racist faces consequences.”
Read this thread. Wow. Everyone against health care is racist because… Well, because they’re racist, of course!
I specifically said that not everyone who is against reform is racist. Anyone who thinks I said that is a readist (against reading, FYI).
Being against reform is ok, even if it is terribly idiotic, that is not a crime. Being against reform doesn’t make you a racist. Marching lock and step with people calling Democrats Nazi’s is racist and no society should tolerate that kind of destructive, hateful behavior.
You want to be against reform and an adult in a democract…voice why you think it is bad, or what you would do different. Labeling people Nazis shows you don’t know anything about health care, you just want an excuse to parade your hatred for minorities.
Because they’re national socialists?
People “against reform” (nice loaded phrasing, by the way) aren’t racist, except when people you say are racist because you say they’re racist are also “against reform,” in which case even the non-racists are racist by association.
Got it.
Because they’re national socialists?
Only if you have the mentality of a 5-year-old. Or do you really think “National Socialism” means whatever you want it to mean to make your childish point?
You mean national socialism isn’t national socialism? How childish of me to think that words mean what they mean.
If I call you a Democrat because you believe in a democratic system of government, that would be stupid and childish, and only a complete moron would think I had scored a political point.
More democratic than those who call those with whom they disagree call clueless rubes who only continue breathing because they’ve got smarter people making sure they can do so. (And they’ll quit their teabagging if they know what’s good for ’em.)
I think my word choice was a little better than that, nor do I remember making a threat that sounds like something out of a Jimmy Cagney movie.
But if you find that easier to respond to, please feel free to imagine me saying whatever is convenient for you.
It’s less coarse, you can repeat it in mixed company, and you even come off as partially-literate!
Continue to use the same flawlessly circular logic that has brought us such gems as “Racists are racist because they’re racist.”
Both to me and with sxp above.
Go back to your first protest and read from there – assuming you’re not just ignoring the responses…