A-46 Eliminate Affirmative Action

Vote YES.

"This initiative will hurt our Colleges."
Wrong. It will hurt "minority children" who are not qualified to attend a particular college. It will not hurt the college.

"The second major reason to vote this down is it is an absolute prohibition locked in to the constitution."
Then that would be a reason to vote NO on every ballot issue.

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by: davebarnes @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:04:37 AM CDT

Lack of diversity

hurts everyone who attends the school.

"I'll take incompetence over a business model incentivised to kill me any day." -- DtR(H)

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by: redstateblues @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:09:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You seem to think test scores are perfect

They aren't - read this - http://www.davidthielen.info/p...

Using multiple criteria to select applicants does better than boiling it all down to who takes tests best is certain subjects.

My recommendations in the 2010 primary?

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by: DavidThi808 @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:46:41 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Serious question, Dave

Too often CU used to admit minorities, send out a press release bragging about it, then walk away and let them fail out. Have they finally done a better job of supporting these kids and remedying the K-12 gaps in their preparation? If not, they'd be far better off at Metro, Uc-Denver or even community colleges where they can get the necessary remedial education and, in the case of a community college, a two-year degree that can then be upgraded to a BA or BS at a cooperating school. All too often, affirmative action in colorado has been just a numbers game. Any word on if they are doing a better job GRADUATING minorities, not just admitting them then abandoning them?

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by: bob ewegen @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 14:02:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have no idea

They are doing more for all freshmen to help make them successful but I don't know if there is more on top of that for minorities.

And I don't want to see people brought in to fail. I just want them able to take it into account because being white & rich does add 100 to the board scores and if nothing else, that needs to be equalized.

My recommendations in the 2010 primary?

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by: DavidThi808 @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 17:37:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Multiple criteria

Great, use multiple criteria, just don't make it race or gender.

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by: Bob99 @ Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 14:32:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Error of fact, Davebarnes

Not all the initiatives are constitutional. 51, for example, sales tax for developmentally disabled, is statutory.

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by: bob ewegen @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:49:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Vote yes

Affirmative action programs discriminate against those they don't help, and they increase racial furor and divisiveness instead of promoting a post-racial world.

Sooner or later, everyone has to face the real world where there is no affirmative action.

We all are discriminated against for various reasons, and affirmative action laws don't negate human nature.  Laws against discriminating on the basis of race, creed, religion, age or sexual orientation are all we need.

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by: Another skeptic @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 13:42:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The real world "where there is no affirmative action"

I'm going down this afternoon to apply for a waiter job at "Hooters."

My recommendations in the 2010 primary?

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by: DavidThi808 @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 13:48:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Don't even THINK about applying to Hooters, Dave!

Though if you are qualified, there may be a spot on McCain's ticket available...

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by: bob ewegen @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 13:58:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Next election

someone should make an amendment called "Deceptive Ballot Initiative Titles".

Colorado Civil Rights Initiative would take away civil rights.

Right To Work doesn't create any jobs.

Just Cause is hardly just.

If all of these amendments were called what they were, we wouldn't have nearly as bad of a problem convincing people as to why they should vote no.

"I'll take incompetence over a business model incentivised to kill me any day." -- DtR(H)

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by: redstateblues @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:12:30 AM CDT

explosive issue

I attended a debate in HD6 in which Republican Bob Lane claimed that affirmative action was the problem responsible for all Colorado's economic problems.

Of course,I don't agree with this position.

He also informed the crowd that his opponent Joyce Foster, was married to a Jewish Rabbi.
He stressed and emphasized Jewish.

I'll let the readers judge for themselves.


A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.Paul Simon

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by: Ray Springfield @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 12:38:45 PM CDT

Outrageous

Jewish people marrying?

What does Bob think he's doing there? SD-35 has a huge Jewish population. Not like they were going to vote for him anyway, but I'm sure he now has the rabid anti-Semite vote locked up.


"I'll take incompetence over a business model incentivised to kill me any day." -- DtR(H)

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by: redstateblues @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 12:43:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

correction

Your correct. The debate was for HD9 and SD35.I live in HD6 and SD35.  

A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.Paul Simon

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by: Ray Springfield @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 13:10:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There's a Republican running in HD-9?

I thought Miklosi was running unopposed. How did he do?

"I'll take incompetence over a business model incentivised to kill me any day." -- DtR(H)

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by: redstateblues @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 13:18:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I came in late at about 7:10 pm and missed Joe's debate

It started at 6:30 pm.
Joe has an opponent.I strongly believe that he will crush his opponent.The literature his opponent circulated looked very radical right.

I like Joe and he certainly has paid his dues working for Progressive Majority, Speaker Romanoff and Majority Leader Madden.
They built a working majority in the legislature.

A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.Paul Simon

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by: Ray Springfield @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 21:08:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wow that is shocking

That someone running for an office in Denver (he's running for SD35 not HD6 I believe) would try to say "Jew" like a dirty word in this day and age is outrageous.

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by: Danny the Red (hair) @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 13:13:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No such race, ray, in 6.

HD six is mine, the Democrat is Lois Court, the Republican is Joshua Sharf.
You may have seen the SD 35 candidates, Bob Lane and Joyce Foster.  The districts do overlap so that probably explains what you saw. If memory serves, Sharf is also Jewish, which would be relevant only because of the alleged comments by Lane.  

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by: bob ewegen @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 13:27:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I worked on Lois' campaign in the primary.

I corrected my statement. I live in HD6. The debate was for SD35 and HD9.I also live in SD35.

See my correction to redstatesblue.  

A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.Paul Simon

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by: Ray Springfield @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 21:11:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The guy made a fool of himself

He is correct that affirmative action should be outlawed, and, of course, wrong to be a bigot.

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by: Another skeptic @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 13:44:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I know we are reaching the point in the blog...

...where it becomes more and more likely for someone to make a "Nazi" accusation.  But please hold off until I finish my thought.  I'm going to start with a simple question:

Is it evil to discriminate?

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by: jjgittes @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 14:29:12 PM CDT

Wrong word

"Evil" isn't really the word I'd use to describe discrimination.  Everybody uses discrimination in their decision-making processes every day, e.g. "discriminating tastes".

Prejudicial discrimination is petty and shortsighted, and it hurts others.  Affirmative action (which is also "discriminating" by definition), is by contrast a restorative action designed to compensate for the imbalances caused by prejudicial discrimination.  No-one assumes that affirmative action is forever, but when equal pay for equal work is still not a reality and equal treatment under the law is still falling short, it's obvious that such a restorative is still needed.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878

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by: Phoenix Rising @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 16:05:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Very well put PR

n/t

"I'll take incompetence over a business model incentivised to kill me any day." -- DtR(H)

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by: redstateblues @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 16:26:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

An unwillingness to discuss...

The unwillingness to discuss and acknowledge the differences between "discrimination" and "affirmative action" is the entire root of this initiative.

In an ideal world, once we realized something was wrong, we'd immediately fix it and no corrective actions would be required.  Of course, ideally, corporations would always see the benefit of their citizen neihbors and consumers as ultimately benefiting the company, and no regulation would be needed.  And ideally, a worldwide government with control of all industry would be the ultimate in efficiency and societal benefit, with no corruption or weighty bureaucracies.  Ideally, everyone would be nice and we would have eternal peace.  And just as ideally, every ruler would be completely trustworthy and wise and government would operate best as a benevolent dictatorship.

We don't live in an ideal world, and the crafters of this initiative are (benefit of the doubt) too idealistic to realize the current state of the country or (more likely) using this wording to pull at the hopes of voters in order to remove protections from people who still suffer from prejudice.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878

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by: Phoenix Rising @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 17:45:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

RFK

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?  

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by: jjgittes @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 08:36:51 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

and there are those

who dream of things that never were and then wake the hell up.

and there are those that look at things the way they are and say, "Hey, that would look good upside down".

and there are those that look at things, and look at things, and look at things and look at things (these are mostly members of Congress).

and there are those that ask why not all they time, but these are usually 3 year olds who don't know better.

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by: Car 31 @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 10:33:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why didn't I know better?

I thought by including free-market capitalism, communism, dictatorship, and eternal world peace in the same statement I'd cover just about everyone's "idiotic assumption" buttons - apparently I was wrong.

RFK would never have been for unilateral disarmament or a hands-off approach to racial equality.  The future may hold promise, but we are not in that supposed future yet.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878

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by: Phoenix Rising @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 12:41:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We must discriminate

There is not time enough in the world to get a complete & comprehensive understanding of everyone we interact with.

So you're on the used car lot and the sales rep comes out smiling and with a nice handshake. You figure he's a lying scumbag. But hey, maybe he truly is a nice guy who will treat you fairly...

On the flip side, the sensible thing to do is assume he is a lying scumbag who will take you for everything he can.

My recommendations in the 2010 primary?

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by: DavidThi808 @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 17:39:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Very telling....

about how you view the world

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by: jjgittes @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 08:38:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

What was it Ronald Reagan said?

"Trust, but verify."

Similarly expressed as "hope (and strive) for the best, prepare for the worst".

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878

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by: Phoenix Rising @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 12:43:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This amendment does nothing to...

address Universities' "Legacy Policies", aka: "Affirmative Action for Rich White Guys".  

Were it not for "Legacy Policies" George W. Bush and John McCain would have not gotten into the colleges they did.

Until these polices are addressed, then I have absolutely no problem with Affirmative Action for poor minority children and women.

"But when I see a 9-11 victim family on television, or whatever, I'm just like, 'Oh, shut up!' I'm so sick of them because they're always complaining."  Glenn Beck  

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by: Arvadonian @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 16:20:20 PM CDT

What's the problem with modest outreach programs?

Modest equal opportunity outreach programs don't "disadvantage" anyone.  Are there really guys out there who object to mentoring programs for high school girls considering careers in math or engineering?  Does anyone lose when CU or CSU distribute bilingual recruitment materials in a majority Latino neighborhood?  And I have a hard time believing that anyone wants to put state women's health care programs at risk, as happened in other states where this passed.  And BTW, quotas are already illegal--and have been for years.  

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by: Progressive Promoter @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 17:03:51 PM CDT

And speaking as a Physics major at CU

We would have been thrilled with any program that had more women majoring in Physics. We had 2!

My recommendations in the 2010 primary?

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by: DavidThi808 @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 17:43:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It was almost as bad in the econ grad school david.

On the positive side, I ended up marrying a CU English major!

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by: bob ewegen @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 19:03:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What would AA do for that?

I guess I don't understand the "x group is underrepresented in y field." At least in the case of women, they aren't struggling to get into colleges (far more women go to college than men) and there is nothing preventing them from majoring in science or engineering. As a society we should certainly be sending the message that they should consider those fields, but I'm not sure there is any need for a law to address the fact that they aren't choosing them.

I was a TA at CU for two years and taught mostly Freshmen. Some of them had no business being at CU. I would make no claim that there was any gender or race correlation, though I might make the claim that out of state students often perform less well at CU.

Anyway, I dispute the notion that you can fight discrimination through discrimination. Rather than fighting to allow underrepresented groups to get in with lower qualifications, how about we focus on the K-12 system that fails to build up the necessary qualifications in the first place?

"One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting everyone else to give it up." - C.S. Lewis

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by: Bondo @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 14:23:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not less qualified

But use a more comprehensive method of determining who is qualified. Test scores can be easily boosted with classes, how a school teaches, etc.

My recommendations in the 2010 primary?

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by: DavidThi808 @ Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 10:22:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

constitutional amendment

vote no.

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by: Car 31 @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 17:30:43 PM CDT