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Bob Schaffer makes it up as he goes along

by: Alan

Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 19:51:48 PM MDT


( - promoted by Colorado Pols)

TUESDAY AM POLS UPDATE: New Rocky Mountain News state political beat director Ed Sealover (formerly of the Colorado Springs Gazette) kicked off his tour at the Rocky this morning by taking the bait detailed below hook, line and sinker. Welcome to school, Ed!

---

Fascinating debate today between Democrat Mark Udall and Republican Bob Schaffer, ranging from energy policy to the war in Iraq. As you've doubtless read or saw on TV by now, both sides are pretty sure they won.

One very interesting thing got asserted at the beginning of this debate, however, trumpeted in a press release from the Schaffer campaign immediately afterward. From their release:

U.S. Senate Candidate Bob Schaffer exposed the hypocrisy of Congressman Mark Udall's (D-CO) record concerning the war in Iraq today at a debate in Parker sponsored by the Southeast Business Partnership and moderated by Channel 9's Adam Schrager.

"Boulder Liberal Mark Udall continues to hide from his votes on both the war and energy," said Schaffer campaign manager Dick Wadhams. "The voters of Colorado deserve to know Boulder Liberal Mark Udall's real record."

When asked about why the United States went to war, Schaffer responded by reading excerpts from House Joint Resolution 118 introduced on October 7, 2002. The war resolution authorizing the use of force outlined Iraq's refusal to comply with the United Nations Security Council's call for the need to remove Saddam Hussein and Iraq's record as a state sponsor of terror.

Schaffer then asked the crowd to raise their hands if they agreed with the resolution. Udall supports sneered and chuckled until they were told the resolution was introduced by Congressman Udall. An audible gasp was heard from the crowd...


Wow, really? Because it was always my understanding that Udall voted against the Iraq war, a considerable point of pride for him in the disastrous years that have followed.

I was compelled to do some checking on this rather audacious claim from the Schaffer campaign. And what I found was pretty interesting, in a sleazeball (to use the Dick Wadhams term) disingenuous sort of way.

As it turns out, Schaffer was reading from the 107th Congress' HJR 118, a resolution that didn't pass. The one that did pass was HJR 114, which Schaffer voted for and Udall voted against (note Udall's bill was introduced in response). And there were some pretty big differences between the two bills--here's a Rocky Mountain News article from October of 2002 titled "Udall urges option - his bill would withhold Congress' OK to attack Iraq until diplomacy exhausted" you may find illuminating (no longer available online, retrieved from Lexis-Nexis):

Rep. Mark Udall has introduced an alternative war powers resolution that would withhold final congressional authorization for an attack on Iraq until all diplomatic means are exhausted.

The Boulder Democrat faces an uphill battle in the House, since most Republicans and some Democrats, including House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt, already endorse a version that would give President Bush broader authority to reduce the threat of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs in Iraq.

The White House-backed version requires the president to report to Congress and certify that he has exhausted diplomatic efforts, but Udall 's version would go further.

It would require Bush to seek a United Nations Security Council resolution, and seek to deploy a ``coercive inspection and disarmament program'' against Iraq, backed by a U.S.-led multinational force.

If those efforts failed, under Udall 's bill the president would have to return to Congress to ask for separate authorization to attack Iraq...


So let's get this straight: Udall sponsored a bill that would have required the President to go back to the UN, wait for a new rigorous round of WMD inspections in Iraq, then and only in the event of failure being able to go back to Congress to secure another vote authorizing force?

Funny, I read this and feel pretty confident that if Udall's bill had passed instead of the one Schaffer voted for and Udall opposed, we would not be at war in Iraq today. It's tough to know for sure, but obviously Udall's bill had safeguards against war in it that the one Schaffer voted for lacked--understandable, since the whole point of the bill Schaffer voted for was to pave the way for war.

And to think, this is the bill Schaffer selectively read from at today's debate, hoping to play up somebody's "real record."  You know, "exposing hypocrisy?"

Mission accomplished, Bob.

Cross-posted at ProgressNowAction

Alan :: Bob Schaffer makes it up as he goes along
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Kudos to Udall
How he handled the run up to the Iraq war was superb. He did the right thing on both his vote against the blank check bill and his proposal of a responsible alternative.

Yes Schaffer can score some cheap points on this. But Udall did the right thing when it really mattered.

Tom Tancredo Interview


Schaffer's lies,
one after another in the debate, compounded by him making reference to Boulder in every other sentence, were designed solely to annoy Udall's supporters because Schaffer has nothing appealing to offer for himself.

Of course we knew that Schaffer's history is rife with lies and innuendo (Democrats "incinerate" religious zealots, etc.), but he seemed to be pushing the new "moderate" Bob 2.0 image for the last year. That's officially over. He's now flip-flopped to being the ultra-partisan hack job we knew and hated. Welcome back, Bob. We look forward to kicking your ass in November.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


Let's not be too hard on Shaffer
He doesn't lie ALL the time. Only when his lips are moving.

Not true...
when he is writing he lies.  

Now granted, his lips probably move when he is reading, but I doubt they move when he writes.

"But when I see a 9-11 victim family on television, or whatever, I'm just like, 'Oh, shut up!' I'm so sick of them because they're always complaining."  Glenn Beck  


[ Parent ]
From the middle...
it sounded like Schaffer was by far more knowledgeable about every issue they discussed. About halfway through, I was wondering why would Udall even agree to debate him? He should let the dirty 527s and 501c4 organizations, backed by George Soros money, win it for him. It just didn;t seem like Udall could win it one on one against Schaffer. Congressman Udall does seem like a nice guy, but I just can't see how Boulder ideology translates well to the rest of the state, and Schaffer was far, far stronger on the critical issues.  

From the middle?
 The middle of what?

Schaffer was far stronger at smirking and pugnacious jabs. it's easy for Schaffer to fire up his supporters if he doesn't worry about, oh, telling the truth, and just keeps pushing the buttons that worked 10 years ago.

Schaffer doesn't seem like a nice guy, he seems like a smart-ass thug who can't conduct a debate without making things up. Over the last decade, Schaffer hasn't been right about a single thing. In fact, he has exhibited alarming lapses in judgment and a pattern of lying to evade responsibility. It's sad he's the best the state GOP could come up with.


[ Parent ]
Far stronger...
on what? All Bob did was talk down to voters yesterday. He's not only a smug ass, he's a wealthy right-wing ideologue who's more extreme than Dick Cheney and that was very clear from yesterday's performance.

Schaffer arrogance got the better of him yesterday. He even named dropped his good friend Tom DeLay during the debate.

Thanks Bob!

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole


[ Parent ]
You reveal that you aren't the middle
when you can't resist inserting "backed by George Soros money" into your comment.  If you want to come across as an impartial observer, you'll need to exercise more self-control and avoid the nasty partisanship.

"... politics has been divided between two types of people: those who want more people to vote, and those who want fewer people to vote."
- Sen. Kerry


[ Parent ]
The earlier posts
dissecting the inner workings of the state Republican Party don't exactly place her in "the middle" of anything but a GOP feud, either.

[ Parent ]
Shaffer: Big Oil Bob or Snake oil salesman?
I attended the debate.

Schaffer tried to take credit for the Clinton years prosperity, while blaming the Bush budget deficits on the Democrats. He failed to explain how his trickle down economics has failed to generate anywhere near enough tax revenue to balance the budget. He rejected any health care reform.

He snidely made reference to the fact that his friend and indicted neocon comrade (Tom Delay) is no longer in Washington.

He rightly acknowledged that the weak dollar has caused the oil price explosion, but failed to note that this has happened as a direct consequence of Bush administration policies.

It is clear in my mind that reason he voted to go war was to make money. He clearly does not care for human life. Neither forced abortions in the Marianas Island factories, nor innocent Iraqi dead, nor dead American soldiers will stop his greed for money or power. I was saddened that his work to procur illegal oil contracts in Kurdistan did not receive mention.

Ken Buck: a man of Mr. Rove and Dick Cheney. The road forward does not use reverse.


Almost hysterical
Schaffer praised Democratic Governor Bill Ritter and tried to take credit for Democratic President Bill Clinton's accomplishments... as Ed Sealover put in the Rocky article, it was a Twilight Zone moment since we all know Schaffer does not support Ritter, never supported Bill Clinton, and is not a moderate by any means

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole

[ Parent ]
But yet..
Udall said he never called for the moratorium on drilling.. He voted for it.. His name was on the bill..  

That's not what Udall said
Even after a day you right-wingers revise history... Schaffer claimed to have joined Ritter's plan before Rep. Udall, and he told him not to cloud his record. So, let's do something that Bob Schaffer didn't do. Let's review the FACTS.

From the March 19, 2008 Denver Post

Voters looking for ways to choose between the Republican and Democratic candidates for Colorado's U.S. Senate seat will probably be able to choose from a wide range of issues that divide the two by November, but the Roan Plateau won't be one of them.

After Bob Schaffer's campaign said today that the Republican backs Gov. Bill Ritter's compromise drilling plan for the area - and now supports writing that plan into law - Schaffer and U.S. Rep. Mark Udall now agree on the issue.

Udall backed Ritter's plan in December, and he is now working with other members of the state's congressional delegation to codify the Ritter approach into law.

Bob Schaffer just makes stuff up...

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole


[ Parent ]
Read the transcript
Udall said "I did not call for a moratorium on drilling." I am not a right winger far from it..but Udall is fair game, with the constant attacks on Schaffer but yet not a bad word about Udall.  

[ Parent ]
Udall did not call for a moratorium on drilling
That's a fact. The bill says:

The Secretary of the Interior shall include in each lease under the Mineral Leasing Act (30 U.S.C. 181 et seq.) for lands to which this subsection applies a prohibition of surface occupancy for purposes of exploration for or development of oil or gas. (emphasis supplied)

The bill, had it passed the Senate, would have forced the oil companies to use directional drilling, a demonstrably viable technology that the BLM refused to consider. There was no moratorium on drilling, only a restriction on where the drills could be placed.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


[ Parent ]
Oops
Forgot to include a link:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/...

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


[ Parent ]
That's a pretty broad interpretation
The purpose of Udall and Salazar's bill was to get the BLM to actually listen to the hundreds and hundreds of citizen comments on their drilling plan, including a quite viable alternate approach using directional drilling, before issuing the final rules for leasing. The BLM (Read: the Bush/Cheney secret energy cabal) chose to ignore reality and go full-bore with its irresponsible plan to sell all the leases at once. That's why Ritter came up with his compromise plan, which Udall supported after the Senate refused to make the BLM consider alternatives to the plan written by the oil and gas industry.

That's a far cry from a moratorium. Try again.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


[ Parent ]
Thank you
After all the parsing and innuendo it is nice to read a blogger who has access to those shiny tubes and knows how to look up information.  Excellent research.  You should consider joining the Obama debunking squad.

[ Parent ]
far cry from a moratorium?
In 1996 Udall voted to keep the moratorium on drilling H.R. 4761

[ Parent ]
Impossible
Udall didn't take office until January 1997. Try again.

You might be talking about a bill from 2006, which had no mention of the Roan Plateau. Try again.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


[ Parent ]
Agreed
Actually you are right. But I was talking about drilling in general. I never mentioned the roan plateau. And all Bob said was that Udall called for a moratorium on drilling.  

[ Parent ]
Another right wing example of truth telling.


"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." -Bertrand Russell


[ Parent ]
Parsing..
i have missed debating with you

[ Parent ]
I'm always here! :)
Even a 2000 mile space hasn't deterred me.  

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." -Bertrand Russell


[ Parent ]
Well..
I am glad.. I only appreciate your liberal views..  

[ Parent ]
thumper...
Your ID is new but your comment above makes it sound like you've been here before. If so, what was your old screen name? (I want to say you're Foghorn... there seems to be some similarity in the tone of your posts and his...)

"The fact that we Dems can't rebuild the house does not mean you bring back the [Republicans] who burned it down." - DavidThi808

[ Parent ]
I have..
Been here before but I can honestly say that I don't remember my old id! But I am sure it wasn't foghorn..  

[ Parent ]
Welcome back
whoever you were... :)

"The fact that we Dems can't rebuild the house does not mean you bring back the [Republicans] who burned it down." - DavidThi808

[ Parent ]
Thanks..
I appreciate it

[ Parent ]
Whew!
I don't miss Foghorn one bit.  There was no debating with him, it was his ideo"logical" promulgated talking points or nothing.  Facts, history, and experience meant nothing.

I truly hope you are one of the "good righties" that we have sprinkled through here.  I even have a good email friendship with one of them, who will remain nameles.  

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." -Bertrand Russell


[ Parent ]
$5 says it's Newsie


"The fact that we Dems can't rebuild the house does not mean you bring back the [Republicans] who burned it down." - DavidThi808

[ Parent ]
Ha !
I guess it's not like life, Ari, where you only get one chance.  If everyone thinks you are a total moron after a month or so, just change your username !

" And there are no Christian terrorists."

The Beej, circa 8/26/2010


[ Parent ]
Even NEWSMAN had his moments of grace
Don't recall any for Foghorn!

And, yes, I've noticed the absence of Newsie.

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." -Bertrand Russell


[ Parent ]
the absence of Newsie
Newsman's been active. He had a lull a week or two ago, but has been back regularly since.

[ Parent ]
I guess I was still in the lull......
Mentally, that is.

Right after I posted the above I checked who is online and there he was.  

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." -Bertrand Russell


[ Parent ]
Well you just lost 5 bucks
Not a newsie

[ Parent ]
Oh..
And I am not an "it" either

[ Parent ]
"It" is gramatically correct in this instance
because it was in reference to the friendship, not the person.

And that's the reason why I only bet small stakes. :)

"The fact that we Dems can't rebuild the house does not mean you bring back the [Republicans] who burned it down." - DavidThi808


[ Parent ]
The Roan wasn't transferred to BLM until 1997...
The planning process wasn't initiated until the end of 2000.  Thumper doesn't know of what he speaks.  Udall's bill, as noted by Thilly, was NOT a moratorium, it was a bill requiring NSO stipulations.  Since 2000, directional drilling  has become the norm in the Piceance Basin, and the reach has increased by about 60%, with Williams now claiming a reach of over 1/2 mile.  This would put well-over 80% of the natural gas under the Roan in reach of this technology, further proving that B.O.B(S) is either a liar, or wrong, or both.  Further Bob might pick up his (failed) predecessor's moniker too, as he wants to have it both ways.  It's the BLM plan that (falsely) claims to only disturb 1% of the Roan's public lands at one time, not Ritter's.  Thus which does B.O.B support?  He can't support both--unless he wants to have it Both Ways.  

(The BLM plan would only require that interim reclamation is started before the drill rigs can move elsewhere, not that the lands are restored, or even fully reclaimed.  Buried in the details of the EIS, and somehow missing from the BLM PR Team's talking points, is the statement that restoration to productive habitat would take twenty years, some lost habitat, as well as backcountry and wilderness-quality lands would be forever altered, according to BLM's fine print).  


"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


[ Parent ]
It depends on how you define moratorium (from 9 news)
Udall (on the Roan Plateau): "I was glad Congressman Schaffer joined us in wanting in a phased fashion a leasing of the Roan Plateau... I've never called for a moratorium (on drilling). I've called for a smart phased development of the Roan Plateau.

Schaffer (on the Roan Plateau): "That moratorium actually has a bill number on it and your name on it."

Truth: Can both individuals be right? Can it come down to how you define "moratorium?"

The Roan Plateau contains one of the largest untapped natural gas reserves in the country. It could heat 4 million homes for 20 years if fully developed. It's also one of the favorite locations for hunters, anglers and other Coloradans who appreciate its beauty. It's located west of Rifle.

Udall and Rep. John Salazar (D-Colorado) were able to cut the funding for the Bureau of Land Management's efforts to sell leases on top of the Roan. Udall said on the floor of the House of Representatives that his goal was to ensure "directional" drilling, not to infringe on the actual plateau. He said on August 4, 2007: "Neither Rep. Salazar nor I am against energy development. But we are for balance. There is an energy boom in Colorado, with the administration pushing BLM to lease as much and as fast as possible, although thousands of acres already under lease remain undeveloped. As we develop the energy we need, we should remember that places like the Roan Plateau are important not just for their riches of oil and natural gas but also for riches in the form of streams, trees and other plants, and the fish and wildlife populations that depend on them for habitat. We need to assure that the energy "boom'' does not mean a "bust'' for those values - for from that bust there may be no recovery." (Source: http://thomas.loc.gov)

At the time, this is how individuals interested in protecting the Roan reacted to Udall and Salazar's ideas. "If enacted, this effort will give area governments and communities the chance to fully consider how best to protect Roan Plateau," said Bruce Christensen, mayor of the nearby city of Glenwood Springs. "This is what our city has been asking for all along: full consideration of a plan to really protect the critical lands of the Roan Plateau."

He was successful for a period of time in delaying the development of the Roan Plateau. Newspapers like The Denver Post and the Rocky Mountain News called it a "moratorium."

Udall says he just wanted to "do it right," and not to rush into anything. Schaffer said it amounted to a delay policy to stop drilling altogether.

As it stands now, both candidates support Gov. Bill Ritter's (D-Colorado) plan to phase in the drilling permits and to do so responsibly. Yet, the BLM has decided against that approach and is putting the leases up for sale without waiting. Udall was mentioned on the original press release from Sen. Ken Salazar's (D-Colorado) office supporting the governor's plans in January of 2008. (Source: http://salazar.senate.gov/news... Schaffer officially goes on record supporting the plan more than a month later. (Source: http://www.denverpost.com/head...


[ Parent ]
Thanks Adam
for validating exactly what I said.

I take issue, owever, with the 4 million homes/20 years example. That's not relevant in several ways:

* Companies are already drilling as fast as they can and there is no way all the gas will be extracted in 20 years

* Most of the gas comes out of the ground in Colorado and is piped directly out of Colorado

* The largest consumers of gas are electrical generation and industry, not home heating

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


[ Parent ]
9News got the 'truth' wrong
The Udall/Salazar amendment never passed.  It was blocked.  They were NOT successful in "cut[ting] the funding for the Bureau of Land Management's efforts to sell leases on top of the Roan."

Nor did Glenwood Springs support a moratorium on leasing; rather their position was opposition to drilling on top of the Plateau (i.e. they were always OK with protecting it via requiring directional drilling).  

The Udall/Salazar amendment was not a moratorium, it required directional drilling.  The Rocky can call it what they want, but it is wrong to characterize it as a moratorium.  

"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


[ Parent ]
Not many want no drilling
most want to cut the number of pads associated roads, make sure the rights of surface users are respected and that locals are not left holding the bag when the gas runs out.  

That's not enough for the O&G industry.  Give us what we want, give it to us now, give it to us cheap and after the party let us walk away and leave the clean up to others.


[ Parent ]
One half of the Roan Plateau Planning Area is already owned or leased
by oil and gas companies.  What the public has consistently and overwhelmingly supported is to keep the remaining unleased public lands as they are--a haven for wildlife, hunters, and backcountry recreation.  BLM's own figures indicate that requiring directional drilling would allow upwards of 80% of the natural gas to be developed with current technologies.  Since 2000, the reach of directional drilling in the Piceance has increased over 60%.  That means the remainder of the 15% or so that is not currently available via extended reach technologies likely would be in a matter of just a few years.  


"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


[ Parent ]
Twitty you got a couple of things wrong.
A moratorium can refer to a suspension of an ongoing or planned activity. Udall was opposed to drilling on top of the Plateau, the plan was for BLM to sell leases on top of the Roan (a planned activity). Udall wanted directional drilling, and was trying to stop the BLM's plan. Therefore he was calling for a suspension of a planned activity.

The comments about Glenwood Springs were from a direct quote from the Mayor of Glenwood Springs, 9 news simply quoted him. Whether his quote was a misrepresentation of what the city supported or did not support is a question you should ask him.  


[ Parent ]
I know the mayor well.
His quote doesn't suggest that they are trying to halt the development of any of the resource under the Plateau.  Rather he seems to be saying that the Udall/Salazar amendment would allow communites the chance to see the ROan managed in a manner consistent with what the vast majority of the public, most of the towns and cities around the Plateau, and several of the BLM's own 'cooperating agencies' have consistently suported--keeping the public lands on top free of the drill rigs and disturbance that would follow from the BLM's plan.

You are stretching the way B.O.Bob used the term 'moritorium' to fit your own interpretation.  

To the extent it would have changed the BLM's plan, you might be correct--still that is NOT what Schaffer was implying nor how most people would interpret a 'moratorium.'

In the debate, Schaffer put it out as Udall trying to 'delay' development of the resource.  But Schaffer supported Ritter's plan, which also would have 'suspended' the BLM's plan, and thus--according to your sweeping definition--Schaffer also supported a 'moratorium.'

Does Schaffer want it both ways?  

Is a moratorium delaying development or is it 'suspending' a plan?  If it's the former, Schaffer is wrong [about what Udall proposed].  

If it's the latter, then both Udall and Schaffer are on record supporting a 'moratorium.'  

"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


[ Parent ]
Definition
Moratorium-
A suspension of an ongoing or planned activity

http://education.yahoo.com/ref...

Oh and I never said what his quote said. I was just replying to you saying that is not what Glenwood Springs wanted.  


[ Parent ]
So Bob Schaffer supports a moritorium too
by your definition.  That is what you are saying, as the Ritter plan would have indeed resulted in a "suspension of an ongoing or planned activity."

"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


[ Parent ]
So let's get this straight, Re: Update
The Rocky Mountain News ignored its own reporting, and instead posted only a he said/she said response from a campaign spokesperson?

But wait...just look at the by line. Ed Sealover worked for the Colorado Springs Gazette this time last month. We can now see which way the Rocky is trending if they are using the most conservative paper in the Rocky Mountain West as their farm team for political reporters.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


He did one thing right
Best zinger: Schaffer was touting his party's fiscal conservatism saying, "In '96, we reduced taxes on . . . " when a Udall supporter, to much laughter, yelled out, "The rich!"


"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole

[ Parent ]
Ed Sealover
I've follwed Ed Sealover as he has written numerous articles for the Gazette.  I've always found him to be one-sided, not-so-secretly trying to promote a Republican agenda in this state.

I would expect the Gazette to hire trash like this, but not RMN.  This guy is the local equivalent of Fox News.


[ Parent ]
You don't read the RMN much then.
They are Fox News West.  The Post is a bit more balanced but the best reporting right now is in The Onion.

[ Parent ]
The bottom line is Schaffer lied to us, the voters, about Udall's record
on the resolution to go to war in Iraq.  He attempted to set up a situation where people would imply in their own minds that Udall voted for the war resolution that passed knowing full well Udall voted against it.  He selectively quoted from one resolution but didn't identify the fact it was from the one that didn't pass and failed to quote the language in Udall's which contained significant language that hopefully would have held Bush back from rushing into war.  Looking back, Udall was obviously on top of the issue in 2002.  

Why did Schaffer lie?  Because he is unethical and without morals, contrary to his never ending statements that he is part of the religious right.  Schaffer literally just makes things up and then tries to sell them as the truth.  He is now engaged in a campaign where the media and in this day and age, the blogs, will analyze everything he says and hold up to the light of day.

All Schaffer did yesterday was destroy his own credibility.  Our men and women are fighting and dieing in Iraq and Schaffer wants us to elect him as our United States Senator and his primary qualification is he will lie to us.  This Republican is voting for Mark Udall.    


Udall knew nothing
Bob Schaffer clearly won the debate. Hands down.

The only thinkg Mark Udall knows for sure is his next tee time.


wrong again
Mark Udall does not golf.

Bob Schaffer is a liar, hands down.

Have a good day.

" And there are no Christian terrorists."

The Beej, circa 8/26/2010


[ Parent ]
If Mark Udall doesn't golf, what is this story about?
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the link
I see that Udall is a 1.8 handicap.  Those numbers make him a strong vice-presidential contender (surpassing Dan Quayle who to my knowledge was the best VP golfer, but who holds about a 7).  On second thought, Udall probably doesn't want to be compared to Quayle.  P-o-t-a-t-o-e?

[ Parent ]
Fidel almost always wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Even the guy who calls every Republican a sock puppet figured this one out.  I know a rich kid who loves to golf does not fit the carefully crafted Udall image.

Udall and Shafroth have the same "Can't we all get along" message. That is a great message for group therapy but we expect more from our leaders than hand holding and group hugs.  


[ Parent ]
Bob Schaffer is a liar
And Mark Udall is a great golfer.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


[ Parent ]
Saying more does not equate with "won"
Yes from all the posts here it sounds like Schaffer knew more, got more specific, went in to more details, and made his position clear.

And it sounds like Udall spoke in generalities so you didn't get much from him.

So in that respect, Schaffer owned the debate. However...

Schaffer took that control to paint himself into a corner. The problem is he is clearly selling something the majority does not want. So he took that advantage and used it to hurt himself.

So in the final measure that matters, who will get more votes from this, Udall won.

Tom Tancredo Interview


[ Parent ]
Please Fidel Please
Why do you insult poor Mark Udall? Mark not only golfs but was ranked the best golfer in all of Congress.  

You got me ColoradoPolitical
I didn't think Udall was a golfer, and frankly don't know too much about his personal life.  He didn't strike me as a golfer - who'd have known ?

So, I now freely admit that Mark Udall is a golfer.  

Can you now reciprocate and admit that Bob Schaffer is a liar ?

" And there are no Christian terrorists."

The Beej, circa 8/26/2010


[ Parent ]
Udall Lost the Debate
You can tell by the shrill screams in this blog that Udall got worked.  Bob, you can count it: 1-0.

Huh?
Who said "Udall got worked?"

I think all people are saying is Bob is deceptive.

I was at the debate. Udall did just fine, and Bob stepped in it several times. They are both obviously rusty at debating, and both have a lot of room to grow. Udall has a clear grasp on the issues and what's actually important to people, while Bob Schaffer can only talk about tax cuts for corporations and rich people.

I've got news for Bob: People don't want tax cuts for big oil, and being an ass about pushing them isn't going to convince anybody.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


[ Parent ]
Bob can also talk about gallons
or barrels, or gallons. One or the other. And he can taunt "people of Boulder" with the best of 'em.

[ Parent ]
Shrill screams?
It's pretty funny to see how awkward Republicans are with the Internet when they have such trouble with their metaphors.  Try something that references reading instead of hearing and your postings might show the kind subtlety that progressives take for granted.

Everything is a game to Republicans with instant score cards and win/lose analysis and a Republican wins every time no exceptions.  I've observed this winners phobia in Republicans for quite a while and it is always amusing how desperate they are to define themselves as "winners".  Next time you fill your car up tell yourself what a winner you are because of Dick Cheney's 2001 Energy Task.  Winning and leading are two separate talents and it has become obvious over the last eight years that Republicans are superb at the former and miserables failures at the latter.  We haven't been this divided and weak since Herbert Hoover thanks to the chimp in charge and his winning supporters.


[ Parent ]
HAHA, Thanks Talking Head, Partisan HACK, lol
Your post is so hypocritical, that if hypocrisy was an energy source it could power this state for the rest of ALL OF OUR LIVES!!!!!

You are a partisan, don't try to hide it, and yes, you are divisive and care about winning or you wouldn't have cared about my post.

I'm not even going to comment on your horrible historical analogy (yes, I have a History Degree with a specialty in that time period), which is so bad, it sounds like you got it from Wikipedia.  AND NO, we are not in the beginning of a Great Depression, like you PROGRESSIVES WANT IT TO BE!!!!!!  YOU WANT PEOPLE TO BE HURTING SO YOU CAN WIN!
 


[ Parent ]
shut up! you whiners...
complaining about the middle class getting squeezed.  Listen to Bob--tax breaks to the wealthy trickle down

"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


[ Parent ]
Seen that one before
During the 2004 Vice Presidential debate, Cheney chided former Senator Edwards with the line that he had never met him until the night of their debate. It was meant to insinuate that Edwards had never been in chamber any time Cheney had. It wasn't true. Within a week or so dozens of photos surfaced showing Edwards and Cheney together in the Senate chamber. But Cheney won the "instant gratification" that comes with a preposterous statement that the victim of it is too stunned by it to react to it. Wadhams used that strategy yesterday. Schaffer "confusing" Udall's legislation with the now infamous HJR 114 scored major "oooos and aaaaahhhs points" at the debate yesterday. Whether the repubs will be able to use the sound bite replete with the cheers, jeers and catcalls in future ads depends on how effective the Democrats are in pounding home the fact that Udall voted against giving bush ultimate decision making authority re: invading Iraq. This is potentially a catastrophy for Schaffer. But it falls on the Udall people to ram it back down Schaffer's throat.  

The "audible gasp" of which Wadhams speaks
was entirely from their side of the room and clearly orchestrated.

The guy gets political theater, I'll give him that. How much that plays I don't know.

Somehow I don't think having your advance look like it was produced by the makers of the affirmative action bake sale and the goldfish marriage ceremonies will play very well.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

"Some of the people that wanted to engage me in conversation appeared to have been the losers in the 'Are you smarter than Michele Bachmann contest?'." --Rep. Barney Frank


[ Parent ]
Oh, I almost forgot....
Great post, Gilpin Guy. Colocitizen, if you have a degree that emphasizes the '30's, does anything from that period that occured in, say, Germany or Italy come to mind? Does the term "gilded age" resonate? Does "run on the banks" jog your memory? "Rampant Unemployment"? "2 front war"? 1,000,000 marks for a loaf of bread? Complete demonetization of unions? Abolishment of Habeas Corpus? Didn't think so.  

Welp
Yeah rampant unemployment that is at 5%...  yeah, I don't think it costs a million dollars for a loaf of bread and we just expanded Habeas Corpus to non-citizens... Germany and Italy.  I'll give you two but you are 2 for 7, take a seat, thanks for playing...  

[ Parent ]
IS THIS WWII?
You must support George W. Bush, he uses that analogy (WWII is analogous to the War on Terror)? You are a W. supporter aren't you?  I still love your "RAMPANT UNEMPLOYMENT" line, because again, it is at about 5% which is considered healthy for an economy.  Second Favorite (this is great too): did you know a loaf of bread costs less then five dollars? you are AWESOME, lol, HAHAHAHAHAHA

Don't let the facts get in your way anytime soon now...  Who is Germany and Italy in this equation (I think you actually meant Japan, because Italy was more or less a minor player--especially in the war--or are one of those progressives--yes, progressives--who loved Mussolini at the time)?
This will be good, please post as soon as possible, because I'm hoping this jogged your memory.


[ Parent ]
You believe 5% unemployment?
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Our method of determing unemployment is a joke.  It counts PhD's driving cabs as employed and part time workers who want full time as employed. People who have just given up aren't even in the picture.

Our real rate is double the official.

Oh yeah, how do you like those June inflation figures?  In one month, 1.8%.  That's what, 22% a year?  Hello, Chile!  

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." -Bertrand Russell


[ Parent ]
The US, now starring as Argentina
Unemployment rate has been severely adjusted since the "bad old days", thanks in part to the Clinton Administration, and in part to a change in which of the BLS statistics are commonly reported.

If you remember unemployment numbers in the double digits, you're remembering the BLS's "broadest" index, which includes "discouraged" workers.  It is currently reported at 9.8% (May 2008).  However, Clinton removed workers in the "discouraged" category if they were there for more than a year.  The Shadow Government Statistics site says the current U-6 "broadest" rate using the old standard is currently just under 14%.

OH - and inflation during the Carter years was in the 11% range, including the gas crisis.  If the new rate holds through the rest of the year we'll have set a modern inflation record for the country.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878


[ Parent ]
Jonah Goldberg?
The least you could do is try plagiarising somebody with some sense of history. Yeah, your side got slapped by SCOTUS on Habeas, but they tried to ditch it. Paint it as pretty as you want, but the reds have wrecked the economy and you know it. Where did you get that "History degree"..Walmart? Try reading up on U.S. and world history before you quote some rightwing quack. Seen where the dollar's at? Ever notice how ginning up war with Iran just drives the price of fuel higher and higher? And yet U.S. trade with the Iranians is at an all time high. By the way, Fascism is the "welding" of corporations and government. Get a clue. Then come see me.    

Dollar...
The US dollar declined 80% vs. the Euro 2001-2008, and also down against many others incl. 33% vs. the Canadian dollar.

Thanks still-president Bush!


"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


[ Parent ]
YOU USED THE ANALOGY, NOW ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Goldberg was not the first to reference that, but anyway, no it was not Wal-Mart (and definetly not: Walmart).  But anyway, yeah I've seen where the dollars at and we both know the reason you gave was not the only reason for the dollar, but you are a quaint lib, so simplistic explanations are best.  Yeah, I actually agree with u we should not be trading medicine or even food with the Iranians, but it seems like you agree with me ;).  

ANSWER THE QUESTION:
DO YOU SUPPORT THE GEORGE W. BUSH ANALOGY THAT THE WAR ON TERROR IS WORLD WAR II?  Hey, it was yours bro

ps don't smack down freedom of speech, just because it doesn't fall in line with your beliefs (i.e. Goldberg--I didn't call any of your BS references names).


[ Parent ]
The war on terror is not WWII
First off, WWII truly was a battle for the future of civilization where either side could win it. The war on terror is a small action where the eventual winner is not in doubt.

Second, the way to handle it is different. WWII had to be decided by force of arms and strength of each side's economy. It was basically a brute force slug-fest. However, the war on terror is much more a cultural fight. We don't win by killing people, we win by giving dead end cultures a future.

George Bush's analogy is just one more sign that he's clueless.

Tom Tancredo Interview


[ Parent ]
That is what ColoCitizen said earlier
ColoCitizen pointed out that it was not the 30's and this is not WWII.  It was rocco and gilpin guy who said it was.

[ Parent ]
Failing banks
Like dozens of others waiting in line with her, Joan Rubin said she was drawn to IndyMac Bank by the high interest rates it paid and the friendly service her local branch provided.

All that was a memory on Tuesday, however, as Rubin and about 200 other anxious, embittered and sometimes angry customers swarmed an IndyMac bank branch in the San Fernando Valley, creating a Depression Era-like scene...



"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


IndyMac was taken over by the Feds Friday?
I believe IndyMac was taken over by the Feds on Friday as it became evident they were insolvent.  We don't have to go back to the Depression for this - just the S&L crisis.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878

[ Parent ]
Good old McSame (Keating) and Niel Bush! n/t
Yeah, let's keep them in charge!

"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


[ Parent ]
As goes GM...
DETROIT - General Motors said Tuesday that it would reduce labor costs for salaried workers by 20 percent, eliminate its quarterly dividend and further reduce truck production to ensure that it has enough cash to finance its turnaround for at least two more years.

The moves, which include selling at least $2 billion in assets and borrowing as much as $3 billion, are expected to raise about $15 billion by the end of 2009, the chief executive Rick Wagoner said.



"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


While I don't agree with some of their moves
At least now that the horse is out of the barn but still (for now) in the pasture they're looking to correct their colossal mistake in over-emphasizing SUVs while neglecting efficiency advances.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878

[ Parent ]
You're right ColoCitizen
You and Mr. Goldberg are spot on.  Why complain about the plummeting dollar, failing banks, and widespread layoffs?  Everything is A-OK.  Just ask Phil Gramm, we're just a bunch of whiners!

"[A]ll Republicans/conservatives/tea parties have been proven wrong. Everybody knows this." BJWilson83, Republican/conservative/tea partier

"The fossil record utterly refutes evolution." BJWilson83, graduate student


[ Parent ]
Interesting feedback on the Schaffer v Udall debate
I was talking to 3 people (in Boulder so all 3 are liberals) and when a 4th person asked how the debate went - all three said that Schaffer pounded Udall.

What was interesting was all 3 thought Schaffer did better - yet all 3 will vote for Udall. So outside of our little group here, it may be that Schaffer is viewed as the winner in the debate.

What was also interesting was that none of the 3 remembered either's stand on any issue (understandable in Udall's case as he doesn't state his) but instead just remember that Schaffer controlled the debate.

It may be that Schaffer/Wadhams won this.

Tom Tancredo Interview


World War 2?
Gone for a week and missed this? Colocitizen, the invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with the Second world War. There is no correlation between the entire world joining in a coordinated effort, led by the United States to defeat the Fascists, Nazis, and the Empire of Japan, and the neocons of the current administration feeding on the post 9/11 panic, accusing Iraq of everything from complicity in the attack to outright carrying it out,(then blaming the NYT for reporting what cheney told the NYT) fabricating intelligence about nonexistant "wmd", strong arming or firing everybody that disagreed with them, calling dissenters traitors (while they outed covert agents themselves) and ginning up hysteria, all to accomplish a goal set by PNAC in the '90's. This "ANSWER THE QUESTION" crap that hannity, billo and "gunny bob" taught you no longer startles anybody. It just makes you look like what you are.......a right wing extremist. BTW, ever hear of Brewster Jennings? Here's one.....Ever read The Betrayal of America, by Bugliosi? (doubt that, as the U. of Walmart probably doesn't sell that one.) Hubris? Yep, these are the "patriots" you and sean hannity shill for. At least hannity gets paid to spout that nonsense....what's your angle? And just a footnote to the "Italy was a minor player" garbage. If you lived in Ethiopia, Greece, Spain, or the Balkans during the '30's and '40's, Italy probably would have seemed more that a "minor player" to you. Educate yourself, hotshot....The problem is the guy in your mirror.  

Also.......Thanks to DavidThi
This thread's a week old, so you probably won't see it, but thanks to Dave for answering for me. Couldn't have done it better myself. Now, is there a war on terror? Of course there is. Was the loss of 4,000 kids in Iraq connected? Sadly, no. Can we win it? Yes, but not if it continues in the form of a non related for profit enterprise that drains the treasury, while fomenting more unrest-for-profit. The repubs had their heyday, the money was made. Now let's bring in adults like Udall and Obama and clean this mess up. And God Bless the 4,000, the 45,000 plus maimed, and the kids still going. They're the heroes, not the perps, pimps, and cheerleaders who never served, that sold (and bought) this disaster.  

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