Go Pound Sand, Poundstone

If you don't support the hard left, you're a wingnut

Put downs seem to be favored here. I thought I'd add one. :)

---

by: Another skeptic @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 13:01:48 PM CST

No

This is just not a rational response to a serious problem. Nobody ever answers this question: What would you cut?

The problem is that continuing to insist that the government is just one big ball of fat, when it is already being cut to the bone, creates very real problems for people. Loss of vital services, crumbling infrastructure, etc.

---

by: Colorado Pols @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 13:40:57 PM CST

[ Parent ]

We've hardly cut to the bone; cut the bloat

Anybody who thinks the state budget has been cut to the bone has never cut a budget.

And even Ritter has proposed specific changes in his budget, but not many real cuts in the state's actual spending.

Proposing budget increases and then cutting those increases is not budget cutting.

The sooner Ritter grows up and becomes honest about the economic outlook ant the budget, the better off the state will be.

---

by: Another skeptic @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:28:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

OK

Give us some examples, then

---

by: Colorado Pols @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:49:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

He can't.

I adked AS the same question several days ago and all he could come up with was a diversionary statement that it isn't his job to point out specifc cuts (budget fat) which of course begs the quesitons.

Obviously, if he knows the state budget is full of fat, then he can name the specific "fat" programs and tell us where to cut but he obviously doesn't know and therefoe, his argument is vacuous.

---

by: Republican 36 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 17:29:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I wouldn't ask him to find every possible cut

That's a huge job for anyone, even if there was a bunch of "fat" there. But at least one thing might be nice.

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 21:10:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You're "hard left" has no meaning

If you thought it fun to watch communism fall, just watch capitalism fail and government...and life as we know it. Why do you hate America?

"In short, we eat oil" ardy39

---

by: Sir Robin @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 13:41:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Now we know what a 'wingnut' thinks

Robin,

Thanks for the great example.

---

by: Another skeptic @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:28:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh no! AS has just discovered "I know you are but what am I?"

If he ever discovers "That's my name, don't wear it out," we're all doomed!

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:35:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm waiting for him to discover

"Why don't you take a picture?  It will last longer."

When I use lots of words, they always form an analysis (and, while producing high volume, also produce high information-density).
--Steve Harvey, 2009

---

by: Ralphie @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:47:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Uh-oh

It's a short step to "I'm rubber, you're glue," and then we're all toast!

---

by: PERA hopeful @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:55:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Is that before or after rock-paper-scissors?

---

by: The realist @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 18:52:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

LOLOL

"In short, we eat oil" ardy39

---

by: Sir Robin @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 16:29:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

No, but let's look at history to parse the situation

Who is Freda Poundstone.  What sterling proposals has she authored, supported or fronted for in the past?  Who are her allies?  Of which city has she been mayor and how did she perform in that role?

I think the answers reveal that she has been on the leading edge of nearly every backward movement in Colorado's recent past.

I think that odds are high that who believes that Freda Poundstone is a reasonable person with credible ideas on public policy is either a wingnut or a dupe.    

---

by: DemZorro @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:46:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Why do these tax cuts have to be put in place at all?

If there's so much fat, then trimming it would surely make up for the loss in tax revenue that the state is currently facing.

This is so typical. All they know how to do is call for tax cuts. It's like the "tastes like chicken" of political ploys:

"Times are good, cut taxes."

"Times are bad, cut taxes."

"The state is broke, let's cut taxes."

This would be a lot funnier if she wasn't trying to get it on the ballot. We have enough work to do without having to defend against an Amendment 60 that could further hamstring the state.

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

---

by: redstateblues @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 13:05:52 PM CST

It's all they've got

Or at least they think they do. They ignore the clear reality that the rest of us have noticed:  While so-called conservative Republicans have been in charge, cutting taxes at federal, state and local levels for many years now, instead of the promised flowering of civilization we are circling the drain.  

Trickle down, anti-tax, anti-government voodoo is their religion. As true believers who don't need no stinkin' facts they are convinced they can win back the masses if they just proselytize hard enough. It's pathetic but nice for the sane among us.

---

by: BlueCat @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 14:09:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

No no no no

You've got it all wrong. Don't you get it BC? Everything that went well in Bush's presidency was because of Republican policies, and everything that didn't go well, or helped us get where we are now is because of either Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton or Barack Obama.

Therefore, we should enact the exact same policies that we had under Bush because we were doing great when he was President. And if we weren't, it was the Democrats' fault.

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

---

by: redstateblues @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 14:20:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You forgot Democrat obstructionism in the Senate

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 14:21:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

RSB

Sweet tagline, brother!

TABOR4LIFE

---

by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:52:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The annoying thing to me is not the proposal,

but rather the media treatment of "a whole bunch of people with actual experience and knowledge say one thing, while some twit says something different!" Why even write a story about what some lunatic wants to do? Why does every crazy Republican idea get taken so seriously?

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 14:21:12 PM CST

Well, I mean...

they did call a press conference.

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

---

by: redstateblues @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 14:23:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I've called press conferences

and I had more people involved with my organization than she does. Doesn't make the press show up.

Get 10,000 people to protest a war and you might get a paragraph in the "Oddly enough" section of a newspaper. Bitch about a tax alone and apparently you get taken very seriously. At least that's how I remember it.

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 14:32:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Poundstone has credibility

She's a famously effective activist, and when she backs a movement, people pay attention.

'Wingnuts" don't get any respect.

---

by: Another skeptic @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:30:50 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Wingnuts don't deserve any respect

Republicans are occasionally successful at getting their plans enacted, but pretty quickly everything they do turns to shit. Eventually people will stop pretending they're worth listening to.

Sounds like they'll still keep talking, though.

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:38:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And there's a good chance

this will make the ballot. So it gets covered.

---

by: RedGreen @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:38:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Excellent point

---

by: Colorado Pols @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 14:40:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This is SOP

"The Media" thrives on controversy (real or manufactured). Thus, if you can find one person or a small group that will say "No, ignore all those other people, only I am right" then you've got a story. Modern "balance" in reporting seems to require equating "a whole bunch of people with actual experience and knowledge saying one thing" with a twit saying the opposite.

Thus, we get "balanced" stories about
- evolution vs. creationism,
- the health effects of smoke and nicotine,
- the relationship of HIV with AIDS,
- whether or not global warming is happening,
- (well, if it is happening, whether or not humans contribute),
- (well, even if humans contribute, whether or not it could be harmful),
- and, whether tax cuts have a larger economic impact than food stamps,
- etc.

Twits get taken way too seriously all the way around.

Sum Ergo Cogito.

---

by: ardy39 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:04:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Its a rightwing media consiracy

Wake up big government taxaholics ... this is your call to action.

Just like the EFCA.

Change the story, control the message and beat your mindless "go along get along" partners into complying with your objectives.

Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.

---

by: Libertad @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:15:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not really true

As I mentioned above, back when the Iraq war was super-popular and only a few of us were protesting it, the media had no interest in any sort of controversy or balance. They were pretty clearly on the pro-war side, and only opinions that came from inside the Pentagon mattered.

It's not a desire for balance or even ratings. It's just an inherently right-wing point of view, expressed explicitly by the owners of the media and therefore implicitly by most of his employees.

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:21:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Hey! I resemble that remark

at least my moniker does

"Yes Twitty, I'm an idiot." Ben Stein's $$

---

by: ClubTwitty @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:53:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

CITY CONFIDENTIAL

Have you ever seen the City Confidential episode where Poundstone is ALLEGEDLY part of murder cover up?  Based in Greewood Village.

---

by: onebigrepublican @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:31:10 PM CST

Definately worth viewing

A nice snapshot of Freda-land.

---

by: DemZorro @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:47:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Actually, When I was a Republican

Freda was one of the "good" Republicans.  But there's no mystery in this and never is where Freda is concerned.  Follow the money.  That will tell you who's behind this and what the real agenda is.  Sounds like car dealers want to get rid of those pesky sales taxes and fees as a way to lower the price of their cars.  

---

by: Craig @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:54:00 PM CST

That's exactly what I was thinking Craig

The car dealers lobby is very powerful, so it wouldn't surprise me at all.

I guess the old approach of, you know, actually lowering the price is just too crazy.

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

---

by: redstateblues @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 15:55:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

If so, it's stupid on their part

If everyone is working part-time at minimum wage they won't be able to afford a car. If they were smart they would want the state working to have increased jobs and increased pay - so no one cares what the fees are.

Most wealth comes from increasing the size of the pie, not by increasing your slice of a shrinking pie.

Amazon tax? Bad Idea!

---

by: DavidThi808 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 23:00:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Lots of businesses seem motivated by short term stuff

Small businesses because they're running day-to-day (or whatever the term is), large businesses because they want quick stock gains.

Though on RSB's suggestion, I thought Hyundai's recent ads saying, "If you lose your job, you can return the car you bought from us with no penalty" were pretty interesting. Never seen something like that before.

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 23:05:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Sweet Jebus, guys...

"Cut the fat!"  "There's no fat to cut!"  "Oh yes there is, but I don't know where it is!"  "Ahhhhh!!!"

Of course there's fat to cut.  This is GOVERNMENT we're talking about here.  No, there's not as much as the nutjob caucus thinks there is, but gov't is nowhere near as efficient as the "ID for Cats" caucus thinks it is either.

Amazing how the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Here's a thought, how about the AS's (ha!) of the world come up with specific examples to cut and the "there's no fat to cut crowd" show just how necessary every dollar of state spending is?  Will either side do it or is just yelling back and forth more interesting?

Michael Bennet is the new Abraham Lincoln.
- Sharon Hanson

---

by: Dabee47 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 16:09:21 PM CST

Alright Dabee

Let's hear it. What can we cut? Keep in mind it should add up to a billion dollars.

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

---

by: redstateblues @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 16:15:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

How about...

cutting higher-ed spending by $110-120 million?

Increase out-of-state tuition by 12.5%, in-state by 4% and increase out-of-state enrollment by 10% at CU and CSU system-wide.

That'll cover the $120 million I just cut.

That's not fat...but it is a plausible cut with a actual remedy.  Mind you, I think it would be a horrible idea, but it could happen and the world wouldn't come to an end.

Now, you give me $110 million of revenue enhancements and we've just covered almost 1/4 of the budget shortfall.

This only works as a back and forth.  There isn't $1billion to cut any more than there is 1bil to raise out of nowhere.

Michael Bennet is the new Abraham Lincoln.
- Sharon Hanson

---

by: Dabee47 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 17:46:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

At least it's something

I shivered when you mentioned the 4% tuition increase, definitely, but it is plausible.  

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

---

by: redstateblues @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 17:51:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Increase in-state tuition by 4%?

CU has just increased it by 10% or so two years in a row. I doubt an extra 4% is going to solve any of their problems or make a substantial difference. And out-of-state tuition is a different agreement, IIRC; one of the reasons it's so high now is that they've agreed not to raise it for some amount of time.

I'm just not sure your numbers quite add up the way you say.

Of course, Bruce Benson will raise tons of money through private funding, um, eventually, I guess, maybe. So there's that.

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 21:09:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

a 4% in-state tuition increase is lower

than the 5%-6% increases colleges have been having to incorporate every year.

As for a a 10% out of state tuition increase - that would make our schools more expensive than Harvard, Stanford, Yale, etc.  It would be hard to get an increase in out of state students with such an increase.

Higher Ed has been the first source of cuts in the last few budget shortfalls, and if there is one programs that has already "cut the fat" and increased fees, that's it.

If you think they can do more - why not try?  It's not like college should be affordable and accessible or anything.

---

by: Justin.Henceroth@gmail.com @ Wed Jan 28, 2009 at 12:05:20 PM CST

[ Parent ]

So you're denouncing both the "no taxes ever" and the "ID for cats" crowds?

That's a brave political stance to take. Much braver than actually taking sides.

Amazing how, when otherwise intelligent people start thinking "a pox on both your houses" instead of taking sides, dumbass Republican ideas end up winning. They're the ones with all the audacity, after all.

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 16:23:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Because taking sides is the answer...

What I see is two dumbass ideas and no actual answers.  I don't see any way to magically raise a billion dollars any more than I see a way to cut a billion dollars.  Do you?

Whether you like it or not, the answer will be both cuts and revenue enhancements.  Acting like that's not going to happen isn't "brave," it's dumb and a waste of time.

Michael Bennet is the new Abraham Lincoln.
- Sharon Hanson

---

by: Dabee47 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 16:40:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

How exactly are you dividing up the debate?

The "no taxes ever" people have nothing to do with the "ID for cats" people. You constructed that false dichotomy and then denounced it.

The actual debate here in the thread is between the proposals of everyone actually in government (who are providing the "actual answers" you may want) and those of some woman who's not Paula Poundstone.

What are you arguing again? Is it just about how smart you are for not getting involved?

This isn't 1993, and triangulation isn't as effective as it might once have seemed. Especially when you're doing it for no reason.

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 16:52:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I just gave you my point.

What I see in the "debate" on this thread and others is repubs yammering about cuts and ColoradoPols saying there's nothing to cut.  "What would you cut" just gets asked over and over again...

If you don't see or like my point, good for you...but you don't have to be a jackass about it.  Last time I checked, I didn't attack you...so whether or not you think I'm some triangulating, uninvolved, self-important jackass or not, keep it to yourself.
 

Michael Bennet is the new Abraham Lincoln.
- Sharon Hanson

---

by: Dabee47 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 17:24:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Don't take it so personally

I just generally dislike the sort of "swoop in and tell everyone what their problems are" style of posting. Nothing against you though. You seem cool otherwise (and yes, this time I remember our last fight, and even so...).

Maybe I'm just sensitive since I remember Clinton's first few months spent courting Republicans the same way Obama is doing, via triangulation, and it being annoying and useless.

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 21:05:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

So let's see it...

Where do we cut the fat?

The Legislature is soliciting suggestions so they don't have to cut more necessary government functions.

"I have come to the conclusion that the making of laws is like the making of sausages-the less you know about the process the more you respect the result."  -- Anonymous IL State Rep. circa 1878

---

by: Phoenix Rising @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 17:19:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

heh

"Colorado is facing A BILLION DOLLAR SHORTFALL"

You say that like it's a bad thing.

---

by: Walter in Denver @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 22:49:46 PM CST

Grover...that you? n/t

"Yes Twitty, I'm an idiot." Ben Stein's $$

---

by: ClubTwitty @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 22:54:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I Wish

Grover gets paid. I take the abuse for free.

---

by: Walter in Denver @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 23:32:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Republicans, they're so oppressed

Pity them first.

---

by: sxp151 @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 23:35:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

If I'm being accused

of being a Republican it can't get much worse.=)

---

by: Walter in Denver @ Wed Jan 28, 2009 at 09:10:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

No, it can get worse...

...you could be Republican and Muslim!

:)

TABOR4LIFE

---

by: Muhammad Ali Hasan @ Tue Sep 29, 2009 at 04:54:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]