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Fitz-Gerald-Polis Pissing Match Gets, Uh, Pissier

by: Colorado Pols

Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:32:08 PM MDT


Earlier today the campaign for Democrat Joan Fitz-Gerald called on Jared Polis to pull a misleading ad. According to a press release:

Today the Fitz-Gerald campaign sent a letter to Mr. Robert Becker of the Jared Polis campaign requesting that the Jared Polis campaign pull an ad in which he makes statements that he and his campaign manager had already acknowledged as false. (See attached letter.)

The advertisement knowingly and willingly misleads voters with the statement "Joan Fitz-Gerald Negative Ad," which is in direct violation of Colorado Revised Statute 1-13-109 and is a class 1 misdemeanor.  According to Colorado Revised Statute 18-1.3-501 a class 1 misdemeanor is punishable by a minimum sentence of six-months imprisonment or $500 fine or both and a maximum sentence of 18-months imprisonment and a $5,000 fine or both.

"This ad is false and violates Colorado statute," said campaign manager Mary Alice Mandarich. "I would like to give you the opportunity to pull this false advertisement. CD2 voters deserve better. As someone who has made campaign reform and clean elections the cornerstone of his campaign, we know Jared will correct this mistake."

This letter was also forwarded to Denver television stations who are running a false commercial.

In response, Polis campaign manager Robert Becker issued a curt, comma-filled response:
Colorado Pols :: Fitz-Gerald-Polis Pissing Match Gets, Uh, Pissier
Dear Ms. Mandarich,

No.

Senator Fitz-Gerald has had numerous opportunities to renounce the so-called "Colorado Count's" ad attacking Jared Polis' education record. Despite the attacks being called "despicable" by the press, Joan Fitz-Gerald has decided to remain silent.

As you can see from the attached video, Fitz-Gerald, when presented the opportunity to show leadership refused - opting instead for the "I-can't-know-who-anybody-is" response. Trouble is, you know exactly who they are - two special interest lobbyist friends of your campaign - Steve Adams ($1500 campaign donor) and Collon Kennedy ($2300 donor and former high level aide to Fitz-Gerald).

Under no circumstances can we remain silent while two special interest lobbyists friends of Senator Fitz-Gerald run disparaging ads against Jared Polis.

The choices presented to your campaign are clear: Show leadership and publicly denounce the ads being run by your cronies at Colorado Counts, or to quote Senator Fitz-Gerald in the attached video, "If something comes up, you just live with it."

Sincerely,
Robert Becker
Poll
Who's Right? Who's Wrong? Who Cares?
Fitz-Gerald's Campaign is Right
Polis' Campaign is Right
I Don't Care Anymore - When is this Over Again?

Results

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Fitz-Gerald-Polis Pissing Match Gets, Uh, Pissier | 111 comments
Oh my Lord.
I could care less who wins this stupid race.

I gotta say, JFG's campaign reminds me of being lectured by my 3rd grade teacher. Nag, nag, nag.

Jesus, buck up and just try winning on your merits, Joan.

"I wouldn't characterize caloric intake as "professional development." c rork

Becker's Choice
Under no circumstances can we remain silent while two special interest lobbyists friends of Senator Fitz-Gerald run disparaging ads against Jared Polis.

No one expects the Polis campaign to remain silent. But is it unreasonable to expect an attack ad that, um, tells the truth?  

Why is it Fitz-Gerald's job
to denounce everything that casts Polis in a negative light?

It's up to Polis to fire back, but he ought to hit the right target, not smugly and inaccurately smear Fitz-Gerald because he feels like it.


Becker is right
This is what leadership looks like...

In the final days before the Iowa caucuses on Jan. 3, John Edwards has stepped up his criticism of outside organizations that spend money to influence elections, repeatedly disavowing a labor group that is blanketing Iowa with commercials supporting his candidacy.

"As for outside groups, unfortunately, you can't control them," Mr. Edwards said last weekend as he distanced himself from the actions of the group, known as a 527 for the section of the tax code it falls under. He would prefer the group "not run the ads," he said.

This is what politics as usual looks like...

"I can't know who anyone is."

Becker's response references a video. Has anyone seen it? Post please!

[ Parent ]
They're both right.
Wil Armstrong and Joan Fitz-Gerald will never talk to their campaign managers after each goes down in defeat on August 12.

Mary Alice Mandarich was truly funny yesterday when whe said that "To the best of my knowledge..." no mining was planned in Summit County. Mary Alice drafted a letter for her boss to sign to Summitt County just for the heck of it. Sure she did.  

[ Parent ]
Leadership Defined
I agree with Becker also.  

Polis IS what leadership looks like, if we define "leadership" as buying a seat on the State Board of Education for a cool million and a congressional seat for the price of five million.

[ Parent ]
Follow the Money
...as opposed to JFG and others, who bankroll their campaigns with thousands of dollars from special interests?

Fitz-Gerald,  for example, has taken PAC money from Freeport-McMoran, the world's largest publicly traded copper and gold mining company, with operations in North America and Indonesia.

Since the 2000 election cycle, Freeport-McMoran's political action committee has received nearly $10,000 in contributions from J. Bennett Johnson, the former Louisiana Senator most known for authoring the bill designating Yucca Mountain the nation's nuclear waste repository.  Johnson left the Senate in 1997 to launch the Washington, DC-based lobby shop Johnson & Associates (now Steptoe & Johnson), whose biggest clients include Constellation Energy, which operates five nuclear reactors in the Unites States and Battelle, the international science and tech. firm with nuclear technology interests scattered around the globe.

One has to wonder what one of the nuclear industry's top lobbyist expects for the thousands of dollars he has funneled through Freeport-McMoran's political action committee to Fitz-Gerald's campaign.  It may be easy to criticize Polis for self-funding his campaign.  But, at the very least you know he is pulling his own strings and isn't beholden to an industry (in perception or reality).

[ Parent ]
Cooper, are you a new hire for the Polis Blog team ?
We typically don't cut and paste from other articles but since you did it, I will give you the response that I gave elsewhere on Colorado Pols about Jared's approval of nuclear energy.

March 19, 2008 CU Law Debate:
Jared: "I don't think we should take nuclear energy off the table... When you are weighing the difficult sources of energy, certainly, nuclear can have vast improvements in the carbon footprint of our energy production program... There are many nuclear technologies in the horizon that might, in fact, play a meaningful role in meeting the energy needs of our future. So I am against any roll-out on any large-scale nuclear power today. But I don't think it should be removed from the table simply because it has the word "nuclear" in it and we are scared of it."  

[ Parent ]
Not on the Polis Team
No..I'm an energy policy expert.

In fact, I was fairly disinterested until, while researching uranium mining interests in Colorado, I ran into this bizarre, clandestine link between one of the nuclear industry's top lobbyists and the Joan Fitz-Gerald campaign.

That led me to this blog and, frankly, I got sucked in by the blind partisanship that is so apparent (probably why you jump to the conclusion that I must be working for Jared Polis).  As a fairly disinterested party, I found the criticisms of Polis illogical and mostly unfair.

Anyway, if Polis is in favor of nuclear (not at all clear from the above statement), he is wrong and I would hope better evidence would persuade him against it.

[ Parent ]
you may be a energy policy expert
but you're clearly not a political one.  You're linking a mining PAC that gives some $$ to JFG and also gets some support from a nuclear lobbyist, to that nuclear lobbyist giving direct support to JFG.  That's um ... tenuous?  At best?

I'm certainly not supporting JFG (or Polis) and would love to see her go down in flames, mostly because I don't trust her mining ties and past actions.  But your "link" between a nuclear lobbyist and her campaign contribs had better come with some direct evidence of acknowledged support or you're guilty of libel.

On the other hand, if you actually do have evidence that JFG has knowingly taken nuclear $$ then I would love to see it, because she made a big point in the CD-2 climate and energy debate about not supporting nuclear in any form.

http://indipol.wordpress.com/2...    

In fact, I just registered
www.veryliberalagitatedpissedoffpeoplewithnoorganization.com
-Laughing Boy

[ Parent ]
Because They Are Her Friends...
She's not expected to denounce every criticism.  But these are her friends and supporters.  Does she have no influence over THEIR false attacks on Polis?  If she's an effective politician, shouldn't she be expected to say "cut it out...you aren't helping!" to her own friends?  
THEIR false attacks on Polis
Who says the Colorado Counts attacks are false? Just because Polis doesn't like them doesn't mean they're false.

Sure, Polis's charter schools are beyond reproach ... except when they award diplomas while failing to enforce their own attendance policies, all while sucking up millions of taxpayer dollars from public school districts. And some voters -- many of them Democrats -- have questions about the proliferation of charter schools. It's a valid position, whether you share it or not.

Polis at one time supported a voucher pilot program. Since then, he says he's changed his mind.

Polis says on his own web site he wants to reform NCLB, while others want to scrap it.

The attack isn't false, even if it points in a direction that might anger Polis, and there's no reason for Fitz-Gerald to denounce it.

Is Polis planning to denounce his own attack ad, which contains demonstrably false accusations?

[ Parent ]
Who says they're false?...um...ABC News
...channel 7.  (Did you miss that post?)

http://www.thedenverchannel.co...

Besides, assuming your comment below on another post is legitimate sarcasm, don't YOU think that it's reasonable for JFG to call out her own supporters when they are (let's say) stretching the truth??

--
"Republicans aren't even responsible for what their campaign managers say, or what they say themselves. You got a problem with that?"
by: RedGreen @ Wed Aug 06, 2008 at 12:54:57 PM CDT  

[ Parent ]
Did you even read the story you linked?
It says the CC ad was "misleading" to imply Polis took official action on vouchers ... which isn't something the ad says.

"Let's look at Jared Polis' record on education. Polis has pushed for conservative ideas that have undermined public schools," the ad attacking Polis says. "Like backing a radical school voucher bill while serving on the state ed board."

That might not spin to Polis's advantage, but what part of that statement isn't accurate?

The rest of the CC ad checks out as FACT.

The Polis ad attacking Fitz-Gerald, however earns a FICTION grade and a MISLEADING grade:

it is fiction to say Fitz-Gerald resorted to negative campaigning

it's misleading to say the ad was put up only by oil lobbyists.

It's simply not JFG's job to do Polis's work for him. If he wants to refute the ad, have at it. Just don't make up so many things to score cheap points.

You're right, a candidate is absolutely responsible for what his or her campaign manger says, and for their own statements. Is Polis planning to denounce Becker's falsehoods? What do you think?

[ Parent ]
What are you smoking?
The Channel 7 investigation states SPECIFICALLY that Polis had NEVER supported vouchers "while serving on the state ed board"...in fact, it clarifies that he supported the bill as a citizen PRIOR to the ed board and has changed his mine on the issue long ago.

And Polis' response ad never says the attack ad was funded ONLY by oil lobbyists.  But clearly ONE oil lobbyist was directly involved.  

And if you think that JFG has no responsibility for this negative and misleading ad just because her fingerprints aren't on it, you're smoking crack! These are her friends and major campaign supporters.

Doesn't it bother you at all that JFG has oil lobbyist friends willing to do her dirty work?  

Doesn't it bother you that she denies knowing who they are and/or has ZERO influence over them?  

Don't you wonder why oil lobbyists are spending thousands of dollars to support her in the first place?  Why are these guys so afraid of Jared Polis anyway?  

[ Parent ]
That's facutally incorrect
Polis wanted to invite the Independence Institute into the BOE to talk about vouchers.

"We're below sharks and contract killers." -- Rep. Trey Gowdy (R-S.C.), speaking on Congress's 9% approval rating
[ Parent ]
and that's factually irrelevent
So now having an honest and fair debate about an issue is "supporting vouchers"?  I'm not a fan of vouchers (neither is Polis apparently), but even as an opponent it seems like you are REALLY struggling to find something legitimately wrong here.  
[ Parent ]
Mr.Cooper , Voucher Supporters Love Jared
Research Polis voucher supporters:
Arthur Laffer
Ed McVaney
Bob Shaffer
Ross Kaminsky
Mailk and Seeme Hasan
Alex Cranberg
Rex Sinquefield ( Rex has founded over 100 PACs in Missouri simply to fund voucher supporters)
Milton Friedman
Bill Owens
Gully Standford
John Andrews
John Caldera
Bob Shaffer
[ Parent ]
And Osama Bin Laden...
...supports Barack Obama.

What's your point?

[ Parent ]
Now you are off the ranch
Back up what you posted with facts

You are on dangerous turf here .  

[ Parent ]
He'll just claim you're "parsing"
(no offense to Parsing, I'm sure)

Point out any of his numerous factual errors and he retorts: "parsing." Unless he ignores it entirely and just says "boulderliberal boulderliberal" ... I mean, "oilandgaslobby oilandgaslobby".

[ Parent ]
Huh??
Apparently sarcasm doesn't translate well to blog.  I'll slow down for ya...

I was taking a Republican argument to it's (illogical) conclusion to demonstrate why your argument is, likewise, absurd.

Republicans argue that terrorists like Hamas and Osama Bin Laden want Obama to win.  And that somehow means...what...that Obama supports the policies of terrorists??

Similarly, your statement that some voucher proponents prefer Jared Polis doesn't make a point unless you are saying Jared Polis is lying when he says he opposes vouchers.  Is that what you think?  Is he lying?  

[ Parent ]
If Fitz-Gerald's
support from oil and gas interests is fair game, so is Polis's support from voucher interests. Her stated policies on energy policy satisfy me the same way Polis's recent position on vouchers satisfies you. What's that got to do with Osama bin Laden?  
[ Parent ]
The difference is...
Polis doesn't get support from voucher "interests", though he may get support from VOTERS who like vouchers...AND it's disclosed and limited by FEC rules.

However, in JFG's case, she gets PAC money from mining/nuclear interests directly and she gets hundreds of thousands on her behalf INDIRECTLY.  This is money that's SOLE PURPOSE is to persuade an elected official on a special interest.  Think about that:  it's PURPOSE is to bribe.  

AND, in the case of the 527's it's undisclosed AND unlimited.  

Big difference.  

In fact, it should be the difference that is defining this race.  

[ Parent ]
Are you kidding
Polis got money from Ed McVaney.

McVaney has 2 issues: Loves vouchers, hates gays.

Why on earth would he give money to openly gay Polis, unless there were pro voucher bundlers directing huge money to Polis.

Its the same way he got all the Swiftboater money.

BTW 527s do disclose donors.

[ Parent ]
Polis is the only Democrat
McVaney and his family support. They shovel tens of thousands of dollars toward Republicans and Republican committees, including Bob Schaffer and some of the shadowy 527s and c4s tied up with Schaffer. McVaney is the very definition of a voucher interest.
[ Parent ]
PAC vers Voters
No, I'm not kidding.

Voters have all sorts of issues and can contribute or not to whomever they want.

PACs exist soley to influence an elected official on a specific issue.

In this case, PACs funneled their money into a 527 organization run by 2 lobbyists who are paid to influence JFG.

Polis doesn't take PAC money.  There isn't a 527 organization run by lobbyists trying to influence Polis and spending money to attack JFG on his behalf.

AND, Polis says he is against vouchers.  So, are you saying he's lying?  Are you saying Jared Polis is a liar?

(527's don't have to disclose donors IF they pay a tax and, in some specific cases, 501 c 4s are exempt.  However, in this case, you're right...we DO know who this 527 is....so how can JFG say she doesn't know?)

[ Parent ]
Polis is lying when he says he never supported vouchers
Whether he supports them now or not, I don't know.  But the lies about the past coupled with his position in 2006 keep the question open.

In addition, the voucher supporters still believe he supports vouchers otherwise they wouldn't give him money.

As to JFG--no argument from me that she knows Steve Adams.  Does it bother me, not really I support Labor and that is where the money is coming from.  Are you alleging coordination?  I would take that seriously.

Truthfully I thoght the Labor ad was bad:  Bad messaging.

BTW, I support Shafroth.

[ Parent ]
This voucher issue is truly stupid...
Again, I assume all good Democrats share the core value of providing a quality education to all kids, regardless of their home situation, ethnicity, socio-economic status.  

And who has demonstrated a commitment to that value more than Jared Polis??

Now he'e a liar and a monster because years ago you think he violated (DEAR GOD!) the cardinal  rule of considering new and different tactics  to achieve that goal??

Is this what Labor has against Polis?  Weak.

Besides this patently absurd issue, the only other real difference I can find between these candidates is JFG's acceptance of PAC money.  I'm not alleging coordination, I'm saying outright that it is UNSEEMLY and breeds SUSPICION when lobbyists who have contributed to her campaign and are paid to influence her funnel PAC money through a 527 organization in order to attack her opponent with misleading ads.  

I'm asking outright -- why is a major nuclear industry lobbyist funneling money to her through a mining industry PAC?

Again, at least with Polis you know who's pulling the strings.  

 

[ Parent ]
Is this what Labor has against Polis? Weak.
Your straw men are quite impressive. If you're really curious, you might look into why Labor opposes Polis.

Another of many differences between Polis and JFG -- Polis has a casual relationship with the truth. That might not bother you. It bothers me.

[ Parent ]
Vouchers are an assault on public education
We can argue the merits when Jared admits he supported vouchers (may still--I don't know his heart).

Until he admits that at least at one time he supported vouchers (his public position has changed sometime in the last 2 years) discususing the merits of vouchers is... Without Merit.

As to JFG, let me repeat AGAIN. I support SHAFROTH.  JFG's mining ties bug me, but that doesn't give Polis an excuse to lie in his ads.

[ Parent ]
POLIS doesn't support vouchers!!
At least that is what he says.  

So unless he's lying in a nefarious attempt to win an election only to (A-HA!) spring vouchers on everyone...

c'mon...you don't REALLY believe that do you?

That's what I mean about stupid.  While VOUCHERS are an important issue, it is truly ridiculous if THIS much disdain is targeted at a fellow Democrat whose commitment to a quality education for all kids is unquestionable.

Do you REALLY think Jared Polis wants to wage an assault on public education??  I can't believe that any reasonable person would come to that conclusion on the basis of such thin evidence.

And as for straw men (I think you mean "straw person"), they aren't straw unless you can show there's really more to your opposition than this very weak argument that Polis has a secret plan to spring vouchers on Colorado (and you don't).

So, again I ask...what is labor's beef with Polis?  Is this it??

[ Parent ]
The record is clear: Polis supported vouchers
He says he doesn't support them now, but he will not admit he supported them in the past.  

The refusal to admit that he supported vouchers at least in the past, in the face of multiple sources is deeply discomforting.

Jared, like many smart young men who achieved great success early has a little love affair with Ayn Rand.  His dalliance with the independance institute, Art Laffer and other privatization proslytizers deeply discomfort me.   Jared has even written glowing pieces for the II on privatization and deregulation.  We've seen what happens when the laisse faire cult becomes the law of the land (witness: the banks and privatized Freddie and Fannie).

As to his plans, this is what I think.

I think he is soft on this issue. Voucher supports are pouring money into this race to replace a strong voucher opponent with a soft voucher supporter.

Will Jared stick his neck out on this issue I don't know, but I don't trust him on this issue.

On straw man: you are confusing me with red-green.

Labor's beef with Polis.  I dunno, not my area.

[ Parent ]
Why Polis May be Better on Vouchers than Fitz...
I'm not sure I know what you mean by "soft" on vouchers.  Do you mean non-idealogical?  As far as I can tell, Polis has come to the conclusion that vouchers are not the right answer to educational reform after true consideration of the them.  

In many respects that is more commendable than reaching that position through ideology or political expediency.  It means he's open to making decisions based on deliberation rather than blind adhesion to popular wisdom.  

Does that make him "soft"?  I dunno.  But after 8 years of an administration that eschews balanced consideration of just about ANY issue, I'm a little more skeptical of elected officials that embrace an issue (even MY issue) so wholeheartedly that they fear even the mere consideration of alternatives.

That's what is so bothersome about this campaign.  JFG, organized labor, oil & gas interests, even Emily's List -- all out to completely demonize a fellow Democrat who, as far as I can tell, has done no more wrong than having CONSIDERED an alternative that is anathema among the Democratic establishment.

It explains why no one can answer what Labor's beef with Polis is...

You know, liberal used to mean "open-minded".    Now, it seems some Democrats are no more liberal than their Republican counterparts.  Shame.

FYI - I was fortunate enough, as a young man, to stumble upon Dostoevsky's "Notes From Underground" during my Ayn Rand phase.  A fellow Russian, he blows her philosophy out of the water before she'd ever written it!

[ Parent ]
By soft on vouchers
I mean he'll just go back to his old position supporting vouchers if he thinks he has enough political capital.
[ Parent ]
Polis's campaign is lying about who is funding the 527s backing JFG
Its unions not O&G.

It makes me suspicious that Polis has changed his position on vouchers.  Is he lying about that as well?  I don't know, but the willingness to lie about who is funding the 527 implicates his trustworthiness.

Also his unwillingness to oppose vouchers on his 2006 boulder county platform survey  makes me suspicious.  That was only 2 years ago.

http://www.bouldercountydems.o...

[ Parent ]
What aren't you getting...?
Adams and Kennedy run the 527 that is working on behalf of JFG.  They are principals in a firm that lobbies her on behalf of oil and gas.  

Where's the lie?

And if you're drawing the line at lies, let's talk about JFG's claim that she has NO IDEA who is behind this 527 and NO INFLUENCE over their actions.  They're disclosed on their FEC filing.  They are her major campaign contributors.  Please.

[ Parent ]
You keep conflating MONEY with Adams
The MONEY is comming from labor that means LABOR is backing the 527.

When you say O&G backs the 527 that is a lie.

The 527 is run by a lobbyist whose firm has other lobbyist representing O&G.

As I have said JFG knows Adams, but are you implying coordination.

I've said it at least 3 times in response to you, but maybe being an "energy expert" means you are not a "reading expert", I support Shafroth.
 

[ Parent ]
I've made the point numerous times too
Polis, apparently, is convinced unions support him, despite their widespread opposition to his candidacy. And if he believes it, it must be so. Overwhelming evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.
[ Parent ]
Why are unions against Polis?
I've looked into it and I can't find an answer other than they are beholden to JFG.  There doesn't appear to  be a policy dispute.

Can someone enlighten me?

And, Danny, the discussion has moved on...YES the money is from Labor.  And yes it is a 527 run by lobbyists paid to influence JFG and other legislators on issues including Oil & Gas.  These two things are not mutually exclusive.  I don't have to be a "reading expert" to understand the simple logic there.

(What is up with your obsession with the "expert" thing?)

And it's not that I didn't understand the 3 times you have pointed out that you support Shafroth.  I got it.  The first time.  I just don't care.  I thought this was a discussion about Polis and Fitz.  (Shafroth isn't even mentioned in the original post).


[ Parent ]
Well you keep confusing the issue
So you haven't really moved on.  I'm not a fan of analogies, but since you are so confused on this issue I will try anything.  If you hire a lawyer to write a will, who in the past represented a murder does that mean that you have anything to do with Murder?

Same principal applies the 527 is a labor 527.

As to the "expert" issue.  Since you self referentially described yourself as an "energy expert" I must assume that in all other things you are an amatuer.  If you had said "I am a nuclear physicist", enviromental engineer or one of 100 other things I wouldn't be mocking you.  I probably still wouldn't have mocked you if you hadn't made the Obama crack.

I told you I supported Shafroth so that you wouldn't keep asking me to defend  JFG.  If you want to see me hammer JFG go to the Cyanide mining thread. I didn't think you understood I supported Shafroth because you kept trying to cast me as a JFG supporter.

[ Parent ]
Channel 7 should really do some investigating
That makes sense, since Polis isn't in lockstep with traditional Democratic positions on education. In 2003, for instance, he voiced his support for vouchers as long as laws concerning them are initially tailored to assist disadvantaged youth -- a position not far from the one espoused by conservative icon Bob Schaffer.

http://www.westword.com/2004-0...

Of course he could have picked up these ideas at noted voucher supporter, the independance institute, where he has written and enjoys hanging out.  He even wanted the II to present in support of the unconstitutional HB1160 voucher program to the SBOE.

IMPLEMENTATION OF HB 1160: There will be a small, technical assistance group of about 15 people to work out the mechanics of implementation, including representatives from the school districts involved, private schools that will participate, and a representative of parents who will probably participate in the program. Polis suggested that someone from the Independence Institute should be included. I [Hudak] objected to this strongly.

http://www.hudak.org/MeetingRe...  Check out the cache the original site has been scrubbed and I can't post the link to the cache.

Don't give me a line of BS about Polis not supporting vouchers when he was on the SBOE.

His position may have changed (voucher supporters like Cranberg are still pouring money into his campaign), but his position was clearly supportive of vouchers.

[ Parent ]
Again....irrelevent...
We all agree that Polis is against vouchers, regardless of what his position was 5 years ago.

We all agree that oil lobbyists bankrolled an attack ad against Polis.

We all agree that 527's get away with doing dirty work that the candidate can't.

So -- why isn't the issue WHY oil lobbyists are so threatened by Polis?  Why isn't the issue WHY JFG won't even acknowledge that she knows who these folks are?  Why isn't the issue WHY these guys are spending thousands to get JFG elected?  What do they expect to get?

[ Parent ]
Mixing up the facts again
Speak for yourself.

We don't all agree that Polis is against vouchers. He still rakes in money from prominent voucher supporters and has earned the endorsement of Republicans who champion vouchers. We'll see if the errors of his youth .. oh, four or five years ago ... stay buried.

And only the Polis campaign "agrees" that oil lobbyists bankrolled an attack ad. In fact, everyone else who has looked into it strongly disagrees.

You can find the FEC filing here.

Four unions bankrolled the attack ad. Here's who they are and what they kicked in:

Colorado Public Safety Fund $25,000
AFSCME Special Account  $100,000
Colorado State Conference of Electrical Workers Educational Fund $20,000
PEA International $100,000

Why isn't the issue WHY unions are bothered by Polis? Why does the Polis campaign keep trying to distract by claiming an attack ad financed by unions isn't financed by unions? Why are the unions spending hundreds of thousands trying to keep Polis from getting elected? What do they fear?

[ Parent ]
Jared is lying about his past support of vouchers: not irrelevant
No one agrees that Oil backed the ads against Polis--I thought it was Labor--so do most others.

Alex Cranberg,Oil exec and Bob Schaffer's old boss, is a big backer of Polis.  Why? Is it because Polis supports vouchers or because Polis supports O&G?

Personally I think its because of Polis's past (and perhaps future) support of vouchers.

BTW I support Shafroth, so your attacks on JFG are meaningless to me.

[ Parent ]
You've got your facts mixed up there
in fact, it clarifies that he supported the bill as a citizen PRIOR to the ed board and has changed his mine on the issue long ago.

No it doesn't. What the CC ad charges is accurate.

Polis served on the state ed board from 2001 to 2007. In 2003, he supported the voucher pilot program. It wasn't in his official capacity as a state board of ed member, but that's not what the CC ad says. When Polis lent his support to vouchers in 2003, it occurred "while serving on the state ed board."

It bothers me that Polis and his staff can't seem to get their minds around the truth.

Keep up with the ad hominem attacks about smoking. They're the best part of your argument.

[ Parent ]
Methinks the lady doth protest too much...
I don't know about the Polis staff, but why can't you get your mind around the idea that the forest is more important than the trees?

(put down the pipe...)   ;)

Why are you so wound up about an indictment of Polis that requires you to parse what "support" means and in what month he said what and whether it was in an "official capacity" or not?  

Why aren't you more concerned that oil lobbyist friends of JFG are spending thousands to make the same (weak) arguments you are? Why aren't you concerned about why it is they feel so threated by Polis?

[ Parent ]
Who's parsing?
Polis supported vouchers while he served on the state ed board. I'm quite happy with that simple statement, it happens to be the truth.
[ Parent ]
Nice distracting technique there too
You said above

.in fact, it clarifies that he supported the bill as a citizen PRIOR to the ed board

That's flat-out untrue. It's neither what the KMGH story says nor is it accurate. But, sure, keep saying "oil lobbyists" till you're blue in the face. Steve Adams was president of the AFL-CIO, which means something to most Democrats.

[ Parent ]
Special Interests are the Problem
So you'd have to be saying that Jared Polis is a liar when he says he no longer supports vouchers.  Is that your argument?

Hey - the oil lobbyist charge was from the Channel 7 investigation.

Oh...and the Denver Post says so as well:

http://www.denverpost.com/head...

And there appears to be plenty of evidence that Steve Adams and his lobby firm are firmly esconsed in the corruption of Denver...

http://www.coloradoconfidentia...

...whatever their special interests (which include oil & gas interests).  

[ Parent ]
Is that your argument?
Not even close. But Polis has done serious 180s on a number of issues over the last few years. His supporters who back vouchers still seem to be OK with him and have rewarded his campaign accordingly. All I said was, we'll have to see if he sticks with this position longer than he stuck with the last, contrary one.
[ Parent ]
Shouldn't we reward...
...folks who keep an open mind about all alternatives before coming to the right conclusion?

Frankly, I think Polis understands that backing vouchers would be politically untenable, even if you think he IS lying about his opposition to them.

And if you want to talk about supporters rewarding candidates who claim they are against their interests....lets chat about JFG's financial ties to the nuclear industry and uranium mining.

[ Parent ]
You're funny
Why do you keep saying I think he's lying? I don't. I'm sure he's telling the truth, just like he was when he held the opposite position a few years ago. I prefer a candidate who has consistently demonstrated a commitment -- in words and deeds -- to core values I share. You're perfectly free to prefer the alternative.
[ Parent ]
Funny ha-ha? What...I make you laugh? I amuse you?
(I get that a lot).

I keep saying you must think he's lying because why else would the issue of his past (official/nonofficial) (support/consideration) of vouchers even be an issue for you?

What is the core value here?  

From everything I know about Jared Polis, I think one of his core values is ensuring an education for all kids.  He (like many others) probably considered the idea of whether a limited/pilot voucher program would help provide an education to kids who otherwise wouldn't get any.  He may have considered the wrong tactic (and apparently he has come to the conclusion that its a tactic that won't work), but you can't say he  abandoned his commitment to a core value.

I agree that values are central.  I expect my candidate to share mine.  Consistently.  

But tactics are debatable.  And, frankly, sometimes it's better to have leadership that at least leaves open the consideration of tactics that are different from our own.  I'd rather someone be persuaded of my tactics than adopt them just for my vote.

[ Parent ]
Actually the Post does not support your argument
Their take on Polis's ad.

Claims are: MOSTLY FALSE

Polis employed half the lobbyists in the state to clean up the A41 mess--some of who were at firms that also lobbyed for O&G.  The Attack against JFG is spurious.

Just so you know, I too am concerned about JFG's ties to mining in particular (I support Shafroth), but that does not create a pretext to lie.


[ Parent ]
Remember too
the Post appraisal you reference was of the first Polis ad attacking Fitz-Gerald. The second negative Polis ad, which started airing a couple days ago, is the one Mandarich claims violates Colorado law by making patently false claims.
[ Parent ]
Yes, but...
I am referring to the Post's reference about the special interests behind Steve Adams lobby firm, which is relevant to both ads.
[ Parent ]
It must be the pipe...
Danny, my "argument" is that the ad was bankrolled by oil lobbyists.  And the Post says...

Claim: "Negative ads run by oil lobbyists - no wonder."

Fact: Steve Adams, a former AFL-CIO chief, heads the 527 group that paid for the negative ad attacking Polis. Fitz-Gerald has long had the backing of major unions in the state. Adams' employer, Colorado Communique, lobbies for oil and energy interests at the state level.

So...what am I missing here?  Steve Adams firm lobbies the state legislature (including JFG) on behalf of oil.   Denver Post agrees.  No argument.

[ Parent ]
Actually you misread the article
Adams FIRM lobbies for O&G.  No where does it say ADAMS has ever lobbyied for O&G.  So the statement "Negative ads run by oil lobbyists" is false.  

Adams is a lobbyist for Labor.

If Polis said that, that would be fair.

Next: Bankrolled by Lobbyists?

that is false the money came from labor.

[ Parent ]
Now THIS is parsing....
You really think that a lobby firm of 4 principals is neatly divided like that?  If Steve Adams and Collon Kennedy make up 1/2 of the firm, you'd have to be saying that the other 2 are the only ones lobbying Joan Fitz-Gerald on behalf of oil.

It's THEIR firm.  THEY lobby on behalf of oil.  

[ Parent ]
I was satisfied at the macro "mostly false" level
The post called the ad "mostly false"

You are the one that wanted to get into the granularity.

[ Parent ]
What are you missing here?
my "argument" is that the ad was bankrolled by oil lobbyists.  

Only if you're using the word "bankrolled" to mean something other than what it actually means. The ad was bankrolled, to the tune of $245,000, by four unions. You skipped my post above pointing you to the FEC report and the accounting of union contributions. Polis wants to refute the ads by attacking unions, go for it. That would be honest, and he'd have some points to make. But that's not the route he chose.
[ Parent ]
So both the Denver Post and the Daily Camera...
...both missed this point??  

Anyway, the point is, again, the forest not the trees -- don't you think there is something unseemly about special interest lobbyists whose job it is to persuade JFG on their issues (including oil and gas) is now running a 527 org that is spending thousands of dollars on her behalf?  

That doesn't bother you at all??

I'm beginning to understand why a candidate would refuse to take PAC money.  

[ Parent ]
The post called Polis's ad "mostly false"
That is the point.

Does Labor lobbying bother me?

No way, I'm for expanded protections for workers.

My view on 527s:  as long as they are accountable for their content and the funding is disclosed (why 501 C 4 are a problem) not a big problem.

PACs have nothing to do with 527s.

I love a lot of lobbyists:  Some lobby for the environment. As an "Energy Policy Expert" you should know that.

What really bothers me is all the lying from the Polis campaign.

[ Parent ]
So you're against campaign finance reform?
Lobbying doesn't bother me at all.  When did I attack lobbying?  (and why do you place energy policy expert in quotes?...do a quick google search).

Where it becomes a problem is when lobbying gets attached to the financial interests of an elected official...like when lobbyists direct PAC money to a campaign or when they, say, establish 527 organizations that spend thousands of dollars on behalf an official they are trying to influence (like Steve Adams and Collon Kennedy).  It creates the appearance that the official supports their position in exchange for those funds (and in some cases, they do).  

Lobbying is fine.  Lobbying is persuading with fact and warrant.  

What's going on here is a special interest (with ties to oil and gas) is spending HUGE amounts of money on behalf of an elected official they are trying to persuade.  How will we ever know if JFG agrees with them on the merits or because they bankrolled an attack ad against her opponent?

[ Parent ]
Mostly right
except the special interest spending HUGE amounts of money isn't the one you say it is. It's union money coordinated by a former AFL-CIO president, who also works for a company that has represented other clients, like virtually every other lobbying firm in the state, including ones Polis hired to fix his A-41 mess.

You keep diverting the story from the unions. Why are they unhappy with Polis? Why are they willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars urging voters to reject him? You're an energy policy expert (no quotation marks) and Polis has spent millions trying to persuade voters that oil and gas interests are behind the attacks, so it's understandable you can't shake that interpretation, but it's simply not true. Repeating it over and over doesn't make it so, it just digs Polis deeper in a campaign resting on untruths. Which is a real shame because he didn't have to run that campaign.  

[ Parent ]
Special interests spending thousands on behalf of an elected official...
...is suspect even if it's one you agree with.  

YOUR diverting from the issue -- Guys who are paid to persuade JFG on lots of issues (including oil and gas) are spending huge amounts of money on her behalf.  Parsing (yes, that's what it is)  - over how much time Steve and Collon spend trying to persuade her on WHAT issue and whether they "work for" a firm or they are the principals of the firm (it's THEIR firm)- is diverting from this more important point.  

Why are these guys working on behalf of JFG by attacking Polis, you ask?

Well...duh...let's repeat:
Guys who are paid to persuade JFG...

[ Parent ]
Reform?
"We got to get some of that re form" O Brother where art thou

I'm not for anything without details.

Good ideas become bad policy without good planning.  The details make the difference.

(see A41 disaster for "reform" gone bad)

I'm ok with 527s, as long as the information is accurate.

I have a bigger problem with 501(c)(4)s.

But see you are an "Energy Expert" so you wouldn't know that.

I wonder if I can become an "Expert"

Wait I can.  I just have to call myself one.

[ Parent ]
You're reigning Polster of the Week(s) !
That counts for something here, even if OQD and Ewegen lump you and me in with the shills because we feel strongly about this topic.
[ Parent ]
You can call yourself an expert...
...but no one would believe you.  ;)

And as for the "accuracy" of information on 527s, it's really easy to hide the true source/purpose of funds.  For example, what is up with JFG getting nuclear lobbyist funds funneled through a mining industry PAC?  Are voters expected to wade through tedious FEC reports to get a clear picture of who is bankrolling who?

Now, I'm no politics expert (teehee), but even I know how these games are played.

[ Parent ]
Frankly
Danny has been a respected commenter on hundreds of issues here for years. Plenty of readers believe he's an expert, or at least an amateur whose take is always worth considering. You just showed up here today beating two issues to death, so I'd be cautious with your accusations.
[ Parent ]
Sense of Humor...
Does anyone have one?

(I thought the wink at the end of my sentence demonstrated that I was kidding...)

Besides, I was referencing his joking (I assume) disparagement of my saying I was an energy policy expert.  He's right that anyone can call themselves an expert.  What makes one so, is that others think you are as well.  So I guess I'll leave it to others to declare my bona fides.

Or I could just say I'm a mildly disinterested Democrat home sick with a serious sinus infection and exercising my wits with some other Democrats equally as impassioned as I am about some issues (and where is the harm in that?).

[ Parent ]
Truthfully I lost my sense of humor
when you made the Obama crack and I put you into a certain category.

I believe you are knowledgable about Nuclear power, but self professing "expert" status is not why.

Overtime I may come to see you as an "expert".  

[ Parent ]
Polis has bankrolled 527's
He should know the rules. He has given over $500,000 to 527's  between 2002 and 2006.He sets up 527's. It is just that he is not "in charge" of this one. He knows that it is illegal for campaigns and candidates to have any knowlege of the messages they send.

If he has a problem, take it up with the unions (is he really a Democrat going after labor???) He knows that JFG is not responsible but he keeps clawing his way through this campaign in an arrogant and ugly manor.

After today's revelations about his charter schools, the ad looks pretty truthful. Taking taxpayer dollars and no one comes to class....priceless.  

[ Parent ]
The Logic is Insane...
So here's the issue --

a) Oil lobbyist (and other) supporters of Fitz-Gerald bankrolled a misleading ad attacking Jared Polis.

b) 527 organizations can get away with murder because they aren't officially linked to a campaign

And the criticism is that Polis doesn't prove the link in his response ad?

Isn't the larger issue WHY oil lobbyists feel the need to attack Jared Polis?  Why do they see him as such a threat?

Isn't the issue that 527's are RARELY completely disconnected from a campaign, but if you can't prove direct collusion, they can do the dirty work that the candidate would never be able to?

 

Jared Should Know

[ Parent ]
Just Curious
In one of the recent Polis ads I've seen on TV, why does he include a picture of himself with a non-identified female at the end?  

Who is she?

Why doesn't he stand with his partner in the light of day, rather than hint that he is married to this blond gal?

So weird.  Any takers from Polis' camp?

Not from the Polis camp
they're sure to jump in, but I don't think that's accurate to describe Pat Schroeder as a "blond gal."

The rest of your post makes no sense.

[ Parent ]
Wow
My bad, I just watched it again and see that it is Schroeder at the end.  Good God she looks like shit nowadays.

My mistake.

[ Parent ]
She was first elected
to Congress 36 years ago. Give the gal a break, she looks better than a lot of folks who are much younger.
[ Parent ]
She should be ironed....
like Cindy McCain.  

"But when I see a 9-11 victim family on television, or whatever, I'm just like, 'Oh, shut up!' I'm so sick of them because they're always complaining."  Glenn Beck  
[ Parent ]
Pat looks good and acts good.
She's substantially older than I am and I wish I looked half as good as she does or was half as smart. A great lady, Pat Schroeder.
[ Parent ]
I'm Still Laughing
Coming from you Ewegen, that's like Frankenstein complimenting the good looks of Elephant Man...
[ Parent ]
That was totally unnecessary
I think Bob Ewegen is a classy (and handsome) guy. I disagree with his opinions a lot but at least he has the courage (more than me, frankly) of saying who he is. Shame on you!

"Why not do the right thing for the American people, even though it's not exactly what we want." - Speaker Boehner
[ Parent ]
Don't knock Disinterested17
He may not be willing to disclose his name but he does state his IQ: 17.
[ Parent ]
Oh Bob
I'd think after shredding people's thoughts, ideas and actions for several decades from your pious journalistic tower, you'd have a bit thicker skin for a joke you set up yourself.

Would it help if I said you were Elephant Man and Schroeder was Frankenstein?

[ Parent ]
Dry your tears.
And next time try not to lead with your chin. Talk about setting yourself up!
[ Parent ]
She's only 4 years older than John McCain
He's not exactly a spring chicken anymore either.

vs.



Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

BTW, I "adduced" this all by myself, you total fucking assclown.
-Laughing Boy


[ Parent ]
Pat beat McCain into Congress
by eight years. She's earned her countenance.  
[ Parent ]
By the way
She's only 4 years older than John McCain

You mean four years YOUNGER than John McCain. Pat turned 68 last week. I know a few 68-year-olds, and none of them look as vigorous or as healthy as Schroeder does.
[ Parent ]
Oops
Yes, that is what I meant.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

BTW, I "adduced" this all by myself, you total fucking assclown.
-Laughing Boy
[ Parent ]
Is it just me?
Jared Polis's campaign team seems to be one or two steps ahead of the Shafroth and Fitz-Gerald teams.  Mary Alice Mandarich is panicking the same way as when when her choke job cost Gail Schoettler the Governorhsip.

I think Jared Polis is going to be the comeback kid of Colorado and win.  

I'm not sure "panicking" is the right word
Will's campaign has never been about getting in the middle of the fight; he's been getting his support quietly and free of the need for rapid reaction forces.  From a distance, it seems "too laid back".

The consistent expression I've gotten from the JFG campaign has been that they want to keep their ad responses positive rather than counter-attacking (they leave the counter-attack to press releases and interviews, apparently...).  They haven't had (and apparently don't believe in) an active Internet campaign.  The impression is an un-reactive campaign.

Jared's team has been extremely active in getting out their message; his team is always at events early, his presence is always made known where we see it most on the 'Net, and he's got a lot of cash to spend on as many ads as he feels he needs to make.  All that combined makes his campaign very "responsive" (though it seems more "pro-active" or "aggressive" than "responsive").

I'm not sure the other two campaigns are responding appropriately to the Polis campaign's style, but neither do I think Mary Alice is "panicking"...

"We're below sharks and contract killers." -- Rep. Trey Gowdy (R-S.C.), speaking on Congress's 9% approval rating

[ Parent ]
ahhhh, the shills are all in full bloom now!

OQDude, if we could just find a way to channel this shill energy
into electrical energy, we could end the global warming crisis.  Any ideas?
[ Parent ]
Out of the Blogosphere,
into the wind farm fields, blow hard.
[ Parent ]
Piss on you, no piss on you
Both campaigns are spinning this issue in the way that they think works best for them. In my opinion Jared is spinning it perfectly while Joan would be better served by making a statement asking that it stop, but I'm a Polis supporter so maybe I'm trying to steer her wrong :)

With that said, this is all normal reasonable and to be expected in the last week. So everyone keep getting indignent for effect as that is how this Kabuki theater is supposed to play out.

Oh, and I think this clearly hurts Joan more - her ties to Oil/Gas/Mining are new news for a lot of people and are a negative to most voters. On the flip side, the education bureacracy already knows that Joan will give them everything they want while Jared wants improvement - so no new news there.

And this doesn't help Will at all - as he comes across as an unknown on these issues.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

thank you david
Thank you David for once again enlightening us with you insightful and well reasoned analysis.  You are truly a source of knowledge that is unequaled. We are so lucky to have you to weigh in on this race.    
[ Parent ]
David's mom posts here?
...who knew?  Welcome!

I'm not as sweet as I used to be.
[ Parent ]
ROTFLOL


Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!
[ Parent ]
Time for a dumb question from a dumb (bottle) blonde...
....why is it that all we hear are the words of the campaign managers?  Rather than the candidates?  Has this always been true?  Why don't the candidates ever speak for themselves (even in a prepared statement written by others)?

I'm not as sweet as I used to be.
Candidates post here
The rare, the brave, the ones with shields of titanium.

Jared posts here a lot. Ali Hasan posts pretty regularly. Katie Witt, Joe Whitcomb, & Steve Ward all do so occasionally.

It can be brutal for them but they tend to get treated (a bit) better than we treat each other. And I at least respect them a lot more for doing so.

I also offered to front page a post from each of the candidates the other day and I know Jared will make one. We'll have to wait and see on the rest.

I do think in the next election we'll have most here. They may not like doing it, but they will need to to reach that critical middle.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

[ Parent ]
Thanks, but I'm not even asking the candidates...
...to speak to us nobodys on a website.  I just think it's odd that they don't even speak in their press releases anymore, let alone in a unmoderated forum of larely anonymous peeps.

I'm not as sweet as I used to be.
[ Parent ]
The candidates speak
(except for Silent Bob). But no candidate is going to launch the kind of attacks Mandarich and Becker do up top. That's why they have campaign managers, to take the heat and make the hits.
[ Parent ]
--
this childish bullying, name calling, spiteful verbal and written attacks on each other is shameful

I was optimistic on getting involved in politics this year...I was optimistic and enthusiastic but this congressional contest is frankly disillusioning me - is no one taking the higher road of decency here?

what a bunch of crap - these two angry candidates make me depressed, Do these candidates and their campaigns think this is what voters want to see and hear? Negative attack ads??? I don't want see this anymore and frankly I could never vote for either of these two based on the last 2 weeks of attack ads and attack press statements...


But they are discussing issues
At the root of this argument are two major issues between Jared & Joan. Yes it's brutal - who wins matters a lot and both sides care passionately. Do you expect the super bowl to be a gentle polite cotillion?

I'm very pleased with how this campaign has gone. By and large the attacks have been on issues and each sides view of the "truth" behind each. Nothing like McCain's stupid celebrity ad against Obama.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

[ Parent ]
Isn't this "major issue" simply whether...
...Jared rightfully criticized Joan for an ad criticizing Jared?  That's hardly an issue of substance but one entirely manufactured by feuding politicians.

I'm not as sweet as I used to be.
[ Parent ]
Yep
You nailed it.
[ Parent ]
Nope
It's about JFG's letter on mining and where she stands on thos issues and Jared's stand on education. Those are real issues.

Yes there's a bunch of extra drama wrapped up in it, but that's what happens when people argue about issues.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

[ Parent ]
The question was - did Polis break the law?
JFG's campaign says he did, citing a Colorado statute. That's taking the gloves off.

But all HIS ad said was "Joan Fitz-Gerald negative ad." Now, was the ad actually APPROVED by JFG? No, it was an independent ad. But was it a negative ad intended to HELP JFG and funded by JFG supporters? Yes.

I dunno, I could care less whether JFG, JP or WS wins in CD-2 - not my district - but those charges wouldn't hold up in court and it seems rather reckless to charge someone with a criminal act based on that.

The episode makes JFG look (1) desperate and (2) reckless. Not a smart move, all in all.

"Why not do the right thing for the American people, even though it's not exactly what we want." - Speaker Boehner

JFG's been looking desperate for two months
and it's not changing.  The Polis campaign's tone changed the second Becker came on board.  Joan's hasn't changed to match and it's driving her down.  She may still win this but if she doesn't it's for two reasons: Mary Alice couldn't handle it and JFG was too stubborn to see that.



In fact, I just registered
www.veryliberalagitatedpissedoffpeoplewithnoorganization.com
-Laughing Boy

[ Parent ]
Fitz-Gerald-Polis Pissing Match Gets, Uh, Pissier | 111 comments
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