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Udall Refuses Online Debate

by: elpresidente

Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 08:47:09 AM MDT


( - promoted by DavidThi808)

The potential for a bipartisan online debate between Senate hopefuls Bob Schaffer and Mark Udall, co-sponsored and moderated by Schaffer v Udall on the right and David Thielen on the left, was killed after the Udall camp backed out after Schaffer agreed to the format and the participants:
If you are one of the handful of people who have been following developments on this blog for months, you may remember that at one point we were working with liberal blogger David Thielen to co-sponsor an online debate between Mark Udall and Bob Schaffer.

In mid-February, David took the lead in sending out invitations to both camps, with my name attached to show that it was a bipartisan effort. On March 18, Bob Schaffer agreed to participate (see also here). Meanwhile, I was told that for weeks the Mark Udall team had dragged its feet and essentially said, "Maybe."

On several occasions I put up posts essentially asking "why in the world is Udall refusing to join a bipartisan online debate?" Well, at long last, here's the answer.

Two weeks after Bob Schaffer's acceptance - on April Fool's Day, in fact - David informed me of the Mark Udall team's official response. Out of deference to David's wishes, I didn't mention the email or divulge its contents publicly - that is, until this weekend when David gave me the green light to explain why Udall refused to join the debate those many weeks ago: The Boulder Democrat didn't want yours truly as the moderator. The alleged reason? The use of the tag "Udall as a Liar" on this blog.

Attempts to find a suitable alternative conservative co-moderator failed:
elpresidente :: Udall Refuses Online Debate
I was quite flattered by the singular reputation I seemed to have acquired from the Mark Udall campaign, but deferentially refused to make public hay out of the matter. Behind-the-scenes negotiations were still under way. The Mark Udall team refused to back down. David mentioned the possibility of a certain anonymous conservative blogger stepping up to fill my place, but that wasn't acceptable. Both sides held firm, and the online debate never materialized.
While neither campaign has an obligation to blogs or other online outfits from either side of the aisle, it is surprising that Team Udall found replacements for SvU unacceptable. By holding out for long enough, the campaign managed to avoid a New Media entanglement, and appeared to do so behind the scenes, not fearing any negative publicity on the blogs.
Poll
Regardless of the bipartisan selection of moderators, would you like to see an online debate between Bob Schaffer and Mark Udall?
Absolutely. Time to recognize New Media!
It might be interesting.
Probably, though not much new is expected.
No. There is little upside for either candidate.

Results

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The above is accurate
Please note that the quoted parts above are by Ben DeGrow.

While I would phrase some of the above differently, it is accurate on it's statements of fact.

In addition, when Taylor West emailed me why she found Ben unacceptable, she emailed me links to 4 post "by Ben" that were the specific reasons why. Those 4 posts were not by Ben but were by a different poster on SvU. This would be like claiming I'm a conservative and pointing to 4 posts by NEWSMAN as proof.

In other words, Taylor West, a person running a U.S. Senate campaign, apparently does not understand that posts to a blog are by distinct people. And that those individuals each have their own opinions, approach, etc.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


DeGrow
can't be taken seriously in any media setting. He's still calling Udall a communist.

No wonder Udall rejected the idea of having him as a "moderator."  

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole


[ Parent ]
Agree wholeheartedly.


"But when I see a 9-11 victim family on television, or whatever, I'm just like, 'Oh, shut up!' I'm so sick of them because they're always complaining."  Glenn Beck  

[ Parent ]
Good for Udall
Why give credibility to that crappy water-carrying blog, Wadham's Sockpuppets? David should be wary of getting on the high horse here.

"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." - Nietzsche  

[ Parent ]
I don't think DeGrow has said anything worse
than some of the things I've said about Schaffer. We each find our own view "reasonable" and our opponents views "totally wrong" but I think we're pretty equally partisian.

What really got to me was Taylor West finding DeGrow unacceptable because of posts someone else made. Maybe she thinks the internet is a series of tubes...

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
So what?
As far as standards for a US Senate debate, this is pretty lame:
I don't think DeGrow has said anything worse
than some of the things I've said about Schaffer.

Wadhams obviously isn't too impressed with you, is all. It's not a question of equivalence.  

"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." - Nietzsche  

[ Parent ]
It's called balance
I think having some (not all) debates where it's a pair of moderators that are clearly biased, one for each, could make for an excellent debate.

Imagine a presidential debate where the moderators are Keith Olberman and Bill O'Rielly - we would learn a lot from it and it would be quite different from the ones we have seen.

So yes, we're both clearly biased and have been very blunt about the opposing candidate. Politics is not a cotillion

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
"Backed out" doesn't sound accurate.
According to the diary, the Udall campaign never agreed to the debate.  Is it fair to call their refusal "backing out"?


[ Parent ]
Sometimes...
...you are judged on the company that you keep.  This is one of those cases where it appears that is appropriate.  

[ Parent ]
I'm in really bad shape too
I'd be very happy having a beer with Haners and NEWSMAN - I much prefer to discuss issues with people I disagree with.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

[ Parent ]
Probably not quite as much fun...
...as the Shotgun Willie's golf tourny (or so I read), but to each their own.

Seriously, I'm just put off by debates with "media" people who are more concerned about feeding their own ego's than getting straight answers out of politicians.  

Surely there are some passionate, involved, educated people that don't have a blog or a radio/TV show?


[ Parent ]
Surely there are some passionate, involved, educated people that don't have a blog or a radio/TV show?
If there are, how would you hear about them? :)

[ Parent ]
I always liked...
...the job that the League of Woman Voters did.  

Politicians already have super-sized egos, I just don't see the point of adding any more of that to the mix.


[ Parent ]
David, I accept. EXCEPT
Haners is a Mormon and doesn't drink beer, and I haven't had one since I quit over 20 years ago.  

But I would Love to sit and talk with you, Paul, Skyler, Laughing Boy, Barron, Haners, GOPstudent, or a dozen others I could name that at one time or another I have disagreed with, or they have disagreed with me.  

You have your favorite adult beverage, and I'll have a diet coke with a slice of lime.


Some men see things as they are, and ask why! ...I dream things that could be and ask,  Why Not !


[ Parent ]
I can accept the invitation
Without accepting the beer.  I'd be down for it at some point.

[ Parent ]
Next time I'm in the Springs
I'll email you guys to see if we can get together. And I'll stick to Pepsi in solidarity (besides I have about 1 beer/month).

That would be fun.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
Ben DeGrow
Is a paid Schaffer shill. He works for the Independence Institute. To claim he is not paid to do the SvU blog is to ignore the facts.

David Thielen, on the other hand, has shown a propensity for ignoring facts and failing to exercise critical thought.

It's the blog equivalent of Hannity and Colmes or Caplis and Silverman. The frothy-mouthed right winger and his liberal patsy.

How about an online debate that is moderated by one person who is professionally obligated to remain neutral, such as Lynn Bartels, Raj Chohan, or Mike Riley? How about one where Schaffer and Udall appear together, in person, and their responses are streamed by video so that we can make sure Schaffer's questions aren't being answered by Dick Wadhams?

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

BTW, I "adduced" this all by myself, you total fucking assclown.
-Laughing Boy



I'm not sure....
Silverman qualifies as a liberal enought to be considered a "liberal patsy".  

"But when I see a 9-11 victim family on television, or whatever, I'm just like, 'Oh, shut up!' I'm so sick of them because they're always complaining."  Glenn Beck  

[ Parent ]
Perhaps some evidence
might be forthcoming before one makes such assertions that DeGrow is a paid shill.

[ Parent ]
Let's see
1. He works for the Independence Institute.

2. He posts during work hours

So unless he can prove that he's doing the posts on his personal equipment, not using Independence Institute's Internet connection, and taking an unpaid leave of absence during the work hours in which he writes and posts his material, the preponderance of the evidence suggests that he is being paid to shill for Schaffer.

I'm not saying there's anything illegal about it, but it certainly does establish that he's far from neutral or unbiased.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

BTW, I "adduced" this all by myself, you total fucking assclown.
-Laughing Boy



[ Parent ]
If one's place of employment was a disqualifier
for moderation and the source of allegations as a "shill" for one side, then that would pretty much eliminate all of the "activist" left, like Bill Menezes, most of Colorado Pols, SquareState, etc.

I don't happen to agree with them, but I won't just avoid debate simply by calling them a shill.  They have an agenda, just like everyone else, and as long as they provide some support for their assertions, then they are worth engaging.

As for the other point, quite a lot of people "post" during work hours (blog posts or comments) either on breaks or via the ability to have timed posts. Since most of Ben's posts appear early in the morning or later in the evening, your second assertion has no merit.


[ Parent ]
Exactly
I have no interest in reading responses dictated by Dick Wadhams. Make it live with an agressive, though neutral, moderator who will push BOTH candidates to explain their positions and past record.

Its just like Further, but with tax cuts! - Fidel's Dirt Nap

[ Parent ]
"the blog equivalent of Hannity and Colmes"
Exactly. Ben would at least have his eye on the ball for his guy. David would flail around in delusions of influence. It's the old fallacy that two nutters in the same room equals balance and sanity, when it's actually just double the nuttery.  

"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." - Nietzsche  

[ Parent ]
How many online debates have you moderated?
I've done 2 (Boulder City Council and CD-2 primary) and in both cases they were very well received - by both the candidates and the public.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

[ Parent ]
None
Point?


"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." - Nietzsche  

[ Parent ]
You guys a brutal on Boulder Liberal David Thielen :)


Some men see things as they are, and ask why! ...I dream things that could be and ask,  Why Not !

[ Parent ]
Ben DeGrow and his history of misinformation
As with many of the Independence Institute's operatives, DeGrow frequently uses misinformation or outright falsehoods to promote his points of view in mainstream media. Here are a few examples Colorado Media Matters has documented:

http://colorado.mediamatters.o...

Bill Menezes
Editorial Director
Colorado Media Matters


[ Parent ]
Frequently, eh?
You site two "stories" within two days of each other, and call that frequent?

Under your guidlines, you "frequently" do the same thing here.


[ Parent ]
Oh c'mon Haners
He can say whatever he wants because he has a nice job title and works for a media watchdog group!

For the record Bob, I think CMM is such a partisan joke that I really don't see any good coming from any of your efforts. People on both sides of the aisle give their opinion and news outlets and stories will always be biased, just like everything on your website. The "information" you provide is so elementary it is a slap in the face to any true progressive.

To whom much is given much is expected.


[ Parent ]
Here here!
Nicely said CCtiger!

[ Parent ]
Where did you ever get that idea?
It's not like they have it posted on their website under Who We Are...

Colorado Media Matters is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the Colorado media.

They don't hide it. In fact, they're pretty open about it unlike some people who are embedded in the media and try to paint themselves as something they're not.  

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole


[ Parent ]
Of course I read the "Who we are"
But they say they correct misinformation when really they're just spewing their own propaganda that others could claim is misinformation in itself. I believe news stories will always be biased and it isn't the reporters job to always be completely balanced.

How does this help anyone?

To whom much is given much is expected.


[ Parent ]
When you can't refute the message
shoot the messenger.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

[ Parent ]
What's the "message"?


"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." - Nietzsche  

[ Parent ]
The message seems to be
That Udall did not want to debate Schaffer online, at least not with any input from a conservative.  Dave has taken many shots at Schaffer on this forum, but that doesn't seem to be a disqualification as far as Schaffer's  campaign is concerned.

If he can't stand to take questions from someone who has a different point of view, how can he realistically say that he will represent all of Colorado?


[ Parent ]
thank you


Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

[ Parent ]
How can he realistically say
that he will represent all of Colorado... when Schaffer and Wadhams continue to degrade Boulder, over and over and over.  

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole

[ Parent ]
That's not a message
Those are your assumptions. Big distinction. I think the message is simple: We're not going to get stampeded into some goofy debate where Wadhams feeds one blogger a bunch of crazy stuff and everyone pretends like that isn't going on.  

"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." - Nietzsche  

[ Parent ]
Good decision by Udall.
This isn't an 8th grade debate class. This is a campaign for the next Senator of the United States. If both camps are going to agree to an online debate, a moderator with credibility and some credentials for asking the hard questions needs to be found. Neither of those mentioned, David or Ben, meet those qualifications, in my opinion.

Udall was right not to agree to a debate, particularly with a blog that calls one of the candidates a "liar" before he even shows up and mainly because neither of the "moderators" have the capability to pull it off.  

"I wouldn't characterize caloric intake as "professional development." c rork


I think David has PROVEN he has the ability to pull this off.
.
He's done it before.

And, in this era of new media,
he could get and vet "hard questions" easy as falling off a log.
.  


[ Parent ]
MotR - are you Taylor West
She used that same "Ben called Udall a liar" (she actually seemed more upset that he "called her a liar" too).

The problem is, the links she sent me, none of them were by Ben.

Can you provide a link where Ben calls Udall a liar? Or is this just the talking points at the Udall campaign today to try and divert attention?

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
Hehehehehehe.
No, I'm not Taylor West. Nice try. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings by saying you would not be a good choice as a moderator but from the tone of your reply, I guess I did. Sorry for that, David.

And please reread my comment. Nowhere did I say Ben called Udall a liar. I say "a blog". Come on, David. Reading comprehension is your friend.  

"I wouldn't characterize caloric intake as "professional development." c rork


[ Parent ]
No hurt feelings
If you read my post-mortum of the CD-2 online debate I took myself to task for some of the questions being ineffective (in that all 3 answered them well and we learned nothing useful to pick between them).

Good point that you said "a blog." But by that measure, no one who posts on ColoradoPols can every be a moderator because this blog has called every candidate every dirty name in the book.

I don't think Ben & I as moderators would be the best debate in this race (although if it had been held, at the rate they are going, we might have been the only one). But I do think it would have been a good one. It would be interesting to have 2 moderators who are clearly biased - it would definitely be different.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
Well, you've got a point there.
But let's be honest--most folks that blog here are not qualified to moderate a debate between two Senatorial candidates and you can most definitely include me in that camp.

I do think the idea itself was a great one--the online debate format is something that I think we are going to see a lot more of in years to come.

And listen, I do want to apologize to you. I wasn't attempting some sort of cheap shot at you. I think you are good at what you do and more importantly, I also think you are a genuinely good guy. I just think that a debate of this sort would require one or two folks that are masters in the art of debate.

Then again, look at how badly the presidential debates sucked, so what do I know? :)

"I wouldn't characterize caloric intake as "professional development." c rork


[ Parent ]
thank you
And I'll be the first to admit I did not do a great job moderating so far (good, but not great). On the flip side, I may have more experience at this than anyone else in the world having done it twice.

Again, thank you for the nice words.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
Who cares?
How many voters would actually pay attention to an online debate anyways?

It puts people on record
I am in favor of anything that puts people on record.

[ Parent ]
I agree with Danny
I am in favor of anything that puts people on record.


Some men see things as they are, and ask why! ...I dream things that could be and ask,  Why Not !

[ Parent ]
You sound like a Republican
"The internet? hmph. We don't do the internet around these parts, it's blasphemy. What's a blog? They won't never amount to nuthin. Coloradopols is just some obscure website. bah humbug."

To whom much is given much is expected.

[ Parent ]
What a funny comment
There is a reason why it's called the new media.  If it were so obsure, why did you think that your post would have mattered to anyone?

[ Parent ]
Realistically...
I just don't think you're going to reach many voters with an online debate.  

(And for the record, I'm not a Republican and use computers extensively so I realize the power of the internet.)


[ Parent ]
LOL
I didn't think you were; hopefully I didn't come across as such.

Your view just might be correct for this cycle, but I'm sure many said the same thing about television debates.  It's going to happen, it will be more of a force as time goes on.  Why not be ahead of the curve?


[ Parent ]
You may not reach voters DIRECTLY
But online debates often reach them INDIRECTLY. They can shape messages and opinions of the people who are, themselves, opinion-makers. Most of what politicians and candidates do never reaches a vast number of voters directly.

[ Parent ]
Shape messages and opinions
Has Colorado Pols offered to moderate an online Senate debate? As the most widely read political site in the state, it would seem to be a natural.

[ Parent ]
It won't work
After all, the most likely moderators in that case would be Haners and me - same problem for Udall, a moderator that clearly supports Bob Schaffer.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

[ Parent ]
Yeah, that sucked
I think the question should be "who can be fair", not "who do you support"

It's worth noting that Pols was friendly to the idea of a CD-5 debate, but it never worked out.  


[ Parent ]
We haven't done Q&As in a long time
But we should start again. If David and Haners want to lead the way. It won't be a debate, necessarily, but it will get the issues and answers out there. We could even solicit reader questions like we used to do.

[ Parent ]
I'm willing to try anything
Just let me know...

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

[ Parent ]
I loved the Q & A's
Q & A's with follow ups would be even better

[ Parent ]
I would love to see this thing happen
Best of luck David.  

Chicken Udall and Chicken Obama
Both Udall and Obama will not appear in any format that is not carefully scripted.  Udall refuses an online debate. Obama refuses to appear in town hall meetings.  They don't want to deal with real voters or spontaneous questions.  

Can't find anyone who really cares
Actually McCain championed this whole town hall idea, and wanted to hold a meeting just like this in Denver.

Problem is it was cancelled due to lack of willing participants.

" The webinar is free, however, there are only 250 spaces available "

Some douche


[ Parent ]
huh?
Udall went all across the state just a month or so ago holding town hall meetings to discuss his campaign.  I can tell you that they one that I attended sure as hell didn't seem scripted and he most definitely won folks over with his candor.  

I cannot understand anyone who doesn't see him as a VAST improvement over Wayne Allard and a much, MUCH better alternative to Bob Schaffer.

Mark Udall is one of the few people that I expect to improve the political dialogue in this country through his nature of striving for bipartisanship.  If for nothing else, that is why I want to see him in the Senate.


[ Parent ]
He sure did it quietly
No one knew about them. I kept watching the Daily Camera and the blogs for one to be announced as I wanted to go. He had a speech at Manhattan Middle school here but there was no open Q&A. And that was it for Boulder.

If you go to upcoming events on his website - there's one. And no mention of if he'll take questions there. I also emailed Taylor West on his campaign asking when the next event would be where he'll take questions - no answer.

I'm sorry but until I see it happen I don't believe it. The only people who seem to have been at these "open" events are Udall supporters.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
Jesus, David
"No one" means everyone. The fact that "you" didn't know about them doesn't mean "no one" knew about them. It means you don't know, and so what if you don't? You've been complaining how the Udall campaign has been totally invisible, weeks into a two-spot ad buy covered on the front page of Colorado Pols. Campaign strategist you are not.  

What you don't know could fill the Library of Congress. Don't attribute that to "everyone" else.  

"At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." - Nietzsche  


[ Parent ]
I was talking about public events
Maybe you can answer the question. When/where is the next event Udall will be at where he takes questions from the audience? You keep saying it is happening a lot and that everyone else knows about them - so share the info.

Because all you do is keep trash talking me but neither you or anyone else actually lists an upcoming event he'll be at to answer questions.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
Next one i know of
is the SEBP debate. Questions go to Adam Schrager at 9News and he will pick them.

Keep your eyes and ears open though, because of the schizophrenic House schedule events tend to be planned on a moment's notice.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

BTW, I "adduced" this all by myself, you total fucking assclown.
-Laughing Boy



[ Parent ]
That's not "open to audience questions"
That's 9NEWS picking a set of questions they like.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!

[ Parent ]
Don;t pay attention to CP
he's a troll from the McCain campaign

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole

[ Parent ]
We finally get a debate
Udall running away from debating is posted at SvU and now we have the first debate between Udall & Schaffer.

The July 14th event, sponsored by the Southeast Business Partnership and hosted at the Wildlife Experience in Parker, will be the first time Rep. Mark Udall (D-Colorado) and former Rep. Bob Schaffer (R-Colorado) share the same stage answering the same questions during the 2008 election season.

Who knows if this story getting out had anything to do with this, but maybe...


Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


This story was out last week
and it had nothing to do with SvU.  

"Suddenly, it may be cool to be American again" - William J. Kole

[ Parent ]
What Go Blue said
What are you talking about, David, "finally get a debate"? This was news a week ago.

[ Parent ]
Where is this stuff listed?
Clearly there is some place for these announcements that I don't know about. I just searched Udall's website again and found no listing of it.

Where can I go to find the announcements of these events?

thanks - dave

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
The campaign is waiting for tickets
I called and asked how to get a ticket and they said they're paper tickets being printed by the venue and when they get them in-hand and figure out how to best get them to people they'll start publicizing the debate.

Non impediti ratione cogitationis.

BTW, I "adduced" this all by myself, you total fucking assclown.
-Laughing Boy



[ Parent ]
the SoS has more than just these two on the ballot for the General.
.
how about some democracy, huh ?

I want all 5 candidates to have the chance to explain their positions.
.  


[ Parent ]
As a staffer...
I've declined numerous debates on behalf of my candidate, and it's clear from the Udall campaign's response that there's no way they're agreeing to this debate.

It's a good call, politically.  Why expose your candidate to potentially harmful questions when the fallout from refusing the debate is almost nill?  Is Channel 9 going to run a story about Udall backing out?  Will people even care?  The answer to both: probably not.

Sorry guys.  Good idea, just not political convenient for a 10-point front runner.


Udall wasn't a 10-point frontrunner
when the debates were proposed.

Why should questions be withheld from candidates?  Are all candidates for office to be shielded from voters and questioned only by members of the MSM?

And would an online debate more closely resembling a town hall (questions from the blog audience in addition to the moderators) be that potentially harmful?

If blogs aren't such a big deal, why are you posting here, or on your own blog?


[ Parent ]
two points
First, this was all before any of the Marianas Islands, etc stuff came up. At the time Schaffer was in the lead in the polls - yet he had the balls to agree to do this.

Second, anyone could submit a question and Ben would pick 6 and I would pick 6. We were going to what each of us picked and re-work if there were dups between us.

Every question was for both candidates which would eliminate attack questions. It would have been a good debate.

And the offer is still open if Udall is willing...

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
Smart decision by Udall
It's been mentioned already, but I'll say it again. The debate/debates between these guys need to be live, face to face and viewable. If Schaffer can indeed do his own work let him prove it. Nobody's stopping wadhams from prepping him. An online debate takes Udall's "verbal volleyball" advantage away, because wadhams could and would  be supplying all/some of the answers. Udall's 10 up, and he's acting like it. Schaffer's going to have to face him sooner or later, unless he's just going to throw in the towel.  

Answering it themselves would have been verified
I think we might have ended up with news crews at each to get shots of them answering live. It would have been enforced that each answered everything by themselves.

And keep in mind this was proposed back when Schaffer was ahead in the polls. I think the big difference was that Wadhams understands the blog-o-sphere and so he could understand that someone could say "mean things" about Schaffer and yet the 2 moderators would make it a fair debate. And might very well make it more interesting than a standard debate.

Where all the cool kids will be on Saturday - Code War!


[ Parent ]
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