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Roll It Up, Light It Up, Tax It Up

by: Colorado Pols

Tue Nov 17, 2009 at 09:36:49 AM MST


Given our current mess of a state budget and lack of revenue, this seems to make too much sense. As The Denver Post reports:

In an opinion that could generate more revenue for cash-strapped governments and give additional legitimacy to a fledgling industry, Colorado Attorney General John Suthers said Monday that the state can collect sales tax on medical marijuana.

"Medical marijuana is tangible property that is generally subject to state sales tax," Suthers, a Republican, wrote in response to a query from Gov. Bill Ritter, a Democrat.

The opinion also said medical-marijuana dispensaries must obtain retail-sales licenses from the state to do business.

Ritter's administration said it would immediately direct medical-marijuana dispensaries to start paying sales tax and obtain retail licenses.
Colorado Pols :: Roll It Up, Light It Up, Tax It Up
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Roll It Up, Light It Up, Tax It Up | 74 comments
You forgot "Regulate It Up"
there's much more then some business license you'll need.
Heard on 9News this a.m.
that medical dispensaries are pleased about this because it gives them more credibility. This seems like a win/win for everyone involved.

Such smart ways to raise some desperately needed revenue.

--From a "real dick."
by: JO

If they're going to do that
They might as well make it legal for everyone, and tax it that way--with an exemption for people with medical marijuana prescriptions.

Suthers, Ritter, Romer et al have been claiming that there's too many of these dispensaries, and there are too many people who are prescribed medical marijuana who don't "really" need it. This is a slap in the face to the ones that do, and it's essentially an admission that they're basically OK with backdoor legalization.

They're OK with making money off of it when it comes from sick people, but they prefer to allow prohibition (with all of it's prison-filling, crime-creating tendencies) to continue for the other 99% of Coloradans.

This would make perfect sense if it was legal for everyone, but instead it becomes a tax aimed strictly at people buying medicine.

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

"This site is filled simpletons..." -- JO

Just a note
The average age of the people applying for medical marijuana at the dispensaries in Colorado is 23! It is hard to believe those individuals are seeking medical treatment.
[ Parent ]
And yet
They gladly accept their sales tax dollars.

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

"This site is filled simpletons..." -- JO

[ Parent ]
That is not true. It is completely false. The average age is 42.
The Dept of Health admitted to their "mistake" in quoting that number.

There are also 65,000 patients not 15,000.  Call the Dept of Health and make them get their facts straight.

[ Parent ]
Data?
Any data/link supporting the numbers?
[ Parent ]
No, you have to call them to get updated corrected numbers.
They have collected over $5 million on just the $90 fee alone.  The State had taken most of that for the budget, however the office that oversees MMJ is poorly staffed and they are 4 -6 months behind in getting people their licenses and updating data.

If you call and question them, you will get the correct answers.  400 - 600 peopel a day is 15,000 per month.  In July we had about 10,000 people. Do the math.

[ Parent ]
Understaffed is a big problem
because the law provides that if they do not act on the applications within, I think, 32 days, then the patients have a presumptive right to be in possession marijuana.  And then it gets to be a law enforcement problem because the patient is not in possession of a card, even though they are legally entitled to be in possession of the marijuana.
[ Parent ]
Actually, once you have a doctors recommendation you can buy MMJ.
I applied on 8/18 and still don't have my card.  The registry is just another level of protection for the patient.
[ Parent ]
Maybe I didn't word it right
but that is my point.  If you were to be questioned about your possession by law enforcement and not on the registry, they would not know if you were legally within the law.
[ Parent ]
Question, WLJ
What if your application to get on the registry was rejected? Say, for incomplete data or the medical condition did not meet criteria or your doc's medical license is expired, just for examples.  Would you now be breaking the law?  Could you continue to buy from your local shop?
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the updated information.

[ Parent ]
Is it so hard to believe...
That under insured young people might be more open to alternative options than older people whose pharmaceuticals are more likely to be paid for by insurance or Medicare?

Multiple Sclerosis is frequently diagnosed in twenty-somethings. Without insurance, injections for MS are in the hundreds to thousands of dollars per short. Medical marijuana is vastly cheaper and can provide temporary relief from symptoms and may delay degeneration. Young people with other serious conditions who are uninsured or under insured face the same problem: Pharmaceuticals are available, but out of reach. Medical marijuana is an affordable alternative.

The only thing two people can agree about on the Internet is that the third is wrong.

[ Parent ]
I agree with you on that part.
And with telltale below--we are talking about taxing medication, which is pretty much unheard of.

On the other hand, can you at least acknowledge that Ritter is thinking outside of the box for a way to raise revenue and simultaneously giving credibility to dispensaries? It's a start, RSB. And it's a hell of a good one.


--From a "real dick."
by: JO

[ Parent ]
I think that it's a start, yes
But we could literally wipe away our budget crisis completely if we just went and legalized it all the way. Potentially hundreds of millions of dollars, approaching a billion dollars.

I just think it's hypocritical for Suthers and Ritter to call medical marijuana a backdoor to legalization, while at the same time legitimizing the very backdoor they are railing against.

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

"This site is filled simpletons..." -- JO

[ Parent ]
See Whiskey's comment below.
We're nowhere near ready to legalize it all the way, not even close. Unless you really want to give the Republicans an issue to rally around next year. If that's your goal, mission accomplished.

--From a "real dick."
by: JO
[ Parent ]
Obviously not
But that doesn't mean I can't point out that the truth and the political truth don't add up.

Luckily, I'm not running for office or really involved with the Democratic Party in any real way. If I was, you might have something to worry about.  :)

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

"This site is filled simpletons..." -- JO

[ Parent ]
Heheheh. :)


--From a "real dick."
by: JO
[ Parent ]
Prescription meds are not taxable
Colorado exempts prescribed medicines.    Physicians cannot prescribe marijuana (Federal law applies in that area);  under Amendment 23, they can only certify that their patient "might benefit" from marijuana.  Medical marijuana is thus subject to taxes the same as OTC nostrums.

I'm astonished that an AG's opinion was required.  The Department of Revenue should have been all over this (and maybe they will be--they can audit dispensaries and go back three years to collect the sales taxes).

[ Parent ]
Audit away...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

The group's executive director, Brian Vicente, estimated that 90 percent of the state's dispensaries are already paying state and local taxes though most have not registered as dispensaries.

Many dispensaries, which aren't regulated by the state now, have registered as wellness centers and alternative health clinics, he said.


[ Parent ]
Allow me to ponder...
Who will look bad if audits take place and the tax money already paid by dispensaries gets revealed?

Will it be the dispensary owners who have already been paying taxes?

Or will it be politicians on both sides of the aisle who've had their heads in the sand over the past few years?

[ Parent ]
Well now.
That is a very good question, if I do say so myself.  

--From a "real dick."
by: JO
[ Parent ]
Or
A more pertinent quote:

"[Dept of Revenue spokesperson] said the revenue agency recently surveyed about 60 dispensaries and found half of them already had sales tax licenses and were paying taxes because they sold other products, but that not all of those were paying taxes on marijuana sale."

[ Parent ]
It's he said vs. he said in that article, it looks like...
I think I agree with you, though: perhaps auditing ought to take place. I'm certain that the largest, longest established cannabis dispensaries have already been paying taxes on the sales of cannabis. I'd personally like to know how much localities have already taken in due to the sales of cannabis.
[ Parent ]
Thanks much, OTD, for clearing that up.
They also reported it on NPR that way, as a medication, so I have to admit that I've been pretty confused about its classification.

Really appreciate you taking the time to clarify. This makes me feel much better about it being taxed.

--From a "real dick."
by: JO

[ Parent ]
Taxing medicine?
Is nothing sacred?
Hell, for some, it's taxing sacament...

[ Parent ]
sacrament

[ Parent ]
Happy and confused or dazed and confused...
This is good.  It does give us legitimacy.  However, I find it nutty that they take our money and are still looking for ways to shut us down. However, it does suggest a contract of sorts. Makes the legal battle very interesting.

VERY Recent Polling suggests we are not ready to legalize 48 / 48 with strong "against".

But yes, why is a plant that never killed anyone illegal?  Where do I begin.....

BTW, we (The Apothecary of Colorado) are opening at 1730 Blake St., Suite 420!  Yes, 420!  We should be open by Dec 1.  A Caribbean restaurant and dispensary one block from each other.  God, this country is great! :-)

Actually
Dispensaries are no more or less legitimate because they pay (or should pay) sales taxes.  It is well-settled law that taxes do not apply only to good, moral, legitmate or even just legal activity.

Al Capone, for example, did not become legitimate because he had to pay income taxes...  

[ Parent ]
but income tax is different from sales tax
...I found surprising AG Suthers's comment that the sale of illegal goods is subject to sales tax.  Does the state or city attempt to collect sales tax on the sale of crack or sex or other illegal sales product?
[ Parent ]
No
But not because they legally cannot; the sales tax act is quite explicit that all retail sales of tangible personal property are subject to tax, unless otherwise exempt.  It is just administratively difficult to pursue street crack dealers for sales tax (and higher-ups would be excluded from sales tax because they are wholesalers).  Marijuana dispensaries are obvious targets for sales tax enforcement--fixed location with records of sales of non-exempt tangible personal property.

BTW, sex work is a service and is not subject to sales tax.

[ Parent ]
use tax?

[ Parent ]
Everything sold at retail is subject to sales tax
unless it's specifically exempted. When crack houses set up as dispensaries and advertise in Westword, maybe then the Dept. of Revenue can try to collect.

But that's a good question -- does Colorado government ever attempt to capture sales tax on vendors who don't have a tax license? I seem to recall some enforcement wrt ongoing "garage sales" that were really retail establishments, but don't know.

[ Parent ]
Also hefty registration fee.
The state should also charge a hefty registration fee for the dispensaries, like $3,000 - $5,000 per year.  That would ensure the places are serious, and would raise money too.  With the projected revenue I read about, the dispensaries should easily be able to pay the fee.
Paul, that is not a correct business practice. How much are other "lucrative" businesses charged? And why is always about how much money a dispensary makes?
Because a business has the possibility of being lucrative (not all dispensaries make millions) is not a reason to hike up fees.

How much are jewelry store fees?  Liquor Stores?  Restaurants? Law Offices (I can name a few 17th street attorneys that rape people over fees).

A fair business model has to be put into place.  Dispensaries are a legal business, treat it as such. And create fees that are in line with other business models.

[ Parent ]
"Why is it always about how much money a [business] makes?"
A question I never thought I would hear posed on this website...

For the record Paul, I agree with you.

Health care "reform" will die in the Senate, and for their efforts, Democrats will be widely thrown out of office in 2010.  Don't say I didn't warn you.

[ Parent ]
I absolutely disagree with this idea.
That is what a business license is for. The business license fee is based on what category your business falls into, not what a business grosses in profit.

Patently unfair. What a bad idea.  

--From a "real dick."
by: JO

[ Parent ]
Finally, a place we can all agree.
Tax it until our budget hole is closed.  :)

Health care "reform" will die in the Senate, and for their efforts, Democrats will be widely thrown out of office in 2010.  Don't say I didn't warn you.
Hell, let's tax ALL prescription drugs.
That ought to take care of the any budget shortfall!
[snark]

More seriously, I think it's fine to tax the snot out of pot, but only if it's legal as a "recreational" drug, in the same way that alcohol and cigarettes are legal. For all the snickering about medical marijuana, an awful lot of people use it to treat medical symptoms. Why should their medicine be treated any differently than anyone else's?

[ Parent ]
Summary
If I may summarize the thoughts in above comments...

- Medicine should be taxed
- The pharmacies which dispense it should be taxed (via business licenses?)
- Registration fees for it should increase (even though apparently the existing fees are taken by the state for non-registration purposes)

Like it or not, CO voters have made mj MEDICINE.  Like it or not doctors licensed by our state (& thus indirectly by the voters) are prescribing this MEDICINE.

Are you all up for a insulin tax next??  That will fill up the coffers quickly!  They'll have to pay!

You have a sound point regarding medicine being taxed.
As for business/retail licenses, I think that is more than appropriate and it is part of the proposal.

And while I agree it's unheard of to tax medicine, it is a way to raise desperately needed revenue, give credibility to dispensers and hopefully prove and move us forward to full legalization, which is what many of us have been espousing for years--that legalizing and taxing marijuana just as we do tobacco and alcohol would raise serious revenue both on a state and federal level.  

--From a "real dick."
by: JO

[ Parent ]
Once again, polling is showing the legalization is not going to happen in Colo, at least in the foreseeable future.
I do think legalization will happen in the next 5 years.  I bet Obama does something around this late in his second term.
[ Parent ]
I'm hopeful that it happens within 10 years.
But then again, I was hopeful back in 1989 so...

And yes, your point about legalizing it in Colorado is dead on. I've seen that polling and it looks unlikely in the immediate future. I'm sort of hoping that by raising revenue on medical marijuana, that it will convince folks that it would be worth legalizing it in order to raise desperately needed revenue. As we well know, it takes time to build consensus and I think this is a way to do it--by offering solid numbers (proof) of what is raised over a few years and letting people see that it is a viable way to not only raise money but to legalize something that should never be illegal in the first place.

Do you mind if I ask you how you feel about medicine being taxed? I do think that is a legitimate point and it disturbs me. That said, I still like this idea but I must confess it is the one area that really bothers me. Sets a bad precedent in a lot of ways.

--From a "real dick."
by: JO

[ Parent ]
Middle, that is the issue. No one can seem to tame this beast.
OK, it is medicine, but a doctor can't prescribe it.  

It helps people with pain, wink, wink.  But who do you know that doesn't have pain?  We all have pain, therefore on some level most people can qualify for MMJ.  Is this backdoor legalization?  

Before you answer you need to see some of our vets who are missing limbs and have extreme pain and have spent months detoxing from OxyContin.  You need to meet the young man who went blind at 20, had transplants and the pain is only relived by MMJ.  So, yes it is medicine.

In America, we have to put things in a nice neat little box.  MMJ is medicine for the body, soul and spirit.  Our issue as Americans is not understanding that a God given plant can treat a lot of what ails you, even a bad mood.

Acupuncture has been around for centuries, only recently have Americans admitted that there are benefits from this medical procedure.  There is much we don't know.  Tribal people have been using herbs to sooth women in childbirth, help calm their nervous husbands and the same herbs to make the birth celebration a spiritual affair for the entire tribe.

So, yes Cannabis is medicine, should it be taxed, I don't know.  It is a wonderful plant that God gave us and we can not figure out how to put it in box anymore since the Iraq Vet and blind 20 old are hardly the traditional "stoners".

[ Parent ]
What a great reply.
Thank you. I don't know the answer either regarding the tax issue. I do, personally, believe it is medicine which is why I am torn about taxing it.

A good friend of mine in Fort Collins is being treated for lymphoma and marijuana is the only reason she is remotely functioning, appetite and otherwise.

At this point, I'm inclined to support anything that makes it available to those that need it, even if that means taxing it.

--From a "real dick."
by: JO

[ Parent ]
Haha. Late in his second term?
Hahahahahahaha.

Health care "reform" will die in the Senate, and for their efforts, Democrats will be widely thrown out of office in 2010.  Don't say I didn't warn you.
[ Parent ]
OK, have it your way: Palin's first term
Isn't pot already legal in AK?
[ Parent ]
My very limited Google research shows that...
...marijuana is legal in Alaska for medicinal use and when done in the privacy of one's home (as a privacy right, really...).

I don't really care.  I'm not saying Obama's "toast," but being so presumptive as to state his reelection is inevitable makes me laugh.  If it were Palin's first term, I'd support her in legalizing pot.  I don't use it, but it definitely hampers our law enforcement system unnecessarily.  And having grown up in Boulder, god knows I have no shortage of friends and family members who DO use it.

Health care "reform" will die in the Senate, and for their efforts, Democrats will be widely thrown out of office in 2010.  Don't say I didn't warn you.

[ Parent ]
I was just having fun...
I think we agree on this one, though I find it illogical that we approved MMJ as a medicine, but then want to tax it as a vice.
[ Parent ]
I agree. But that's not the only illogical self-contradictory...
...policy our government applies.  For example, whatever you think of abortion, the Federal government, as well as the governments of 34 of the 50 states, provide legal protection for fetuses (so that their killer can be charged with murder) while simultaneously claiming they have no right to life.

Pick one, but to have both just makes us look foolish.

For my part, I believe that marijuana should be classified as a recreational drug, and taxed in that regard.  It is not a medicine for most people clamoring to take advantage of the new policy.  For those who do use it as a medicine, they have alternatives, so they have a choice whether or not they want to pay the tax.

Health care "reform" will die in the Senate, and for their efforts, Democrats will be widely thrown out of office in 2010.  Don't say I didn't warn you.

[ Parent ]
I think that depends
on how lucrative the dispensaries prove to be.

I don't see how big pharma and/big ag/tobacco&alcohol will stay away if MMJ dispensaries make a lot of money. Sure, the money will come from some offshore subsidiary of a partnership or something equally opaque, but if there's money to be made, it will show up in a campaign.

We all know what big money can do to change people's minds.

[ Parent ]
How about...
...Some legit NIH research onto the medical value of Marijuana for any number of conditions?

She wrote "tax cuts" on her hand.  A Republican so stupid she had to be reminded of the one thing: "tax cuts."  It's like if you saw Wile E. Coyote's paw and it said "road runner."
[ Parent ]
What's been stopping them over the past decades?
Politics?
[ Parent ]
Incorrect
As I note above, marijuana is not dispensed by prescription, thus, it should not be taxed like a prescription drug.
[ Parent ]
Number One word spoke at a Grateful Dead concert
Ear
What does a Deadhead say when they run out of pot?
This music sucks!

She wrote "tax cuts" on her hand.  A Republican so stupid she had to be reminded of the one thing: "tax cuts."  It's like if you saw Wile E. Coyote's paw and it said "road runner."
[ Parent ]
The GJ City Council
placed their moratorium on new dispensaries last night.  It was funny to watch.  The established shop owners came out in favor of it.  Obviously, glad to have less competition for the next year. Councilwoman Bonnie Beckstein made a good point about treating dispensaries like health food stores.  But then she went on to cackle about how the shops had to gain some kind of respectability in the community.  Like they don't already.  Like the patients using the services are just out for recreational use.  

They cannot regulate the dispensaries like pharmacies as one council member suggested.... simply because doctors do not write prescriptions for the ghanga.  What docs do is more akin to suggesting a patient buy vitamin supplements.   Going to be interesting to see what the GA does this session.

Bonnie Beckstein is a fucking idiot
Imagine Janet Rowland with a face like a bouquet of assholes.

When I use lots of words, they always form an analysis (and, while producing high volume, also produce high information-density).
--Steve Harvey, 2009
[ Parent ]
You are one of the most vile human beings I've...
...ever had the displeasure of crossing paths with.  I don't know a damn thing about Bonnie Beckstein, but that's uncalled for and disgusting in the extreme.

Health care "reform" will die in the Senate, and for their efforts, Democrats will be widely thrown out of office in 2010.  Don't say I didn't warn you.
[ Parent ]
yeah
let's tax the hell out of a legal business in this state providing patients with pain relief and with the same breath allow the payday lenders free reign to charge citizens 300% interest on small loans.

I am all for charging a reasonable fee based on other retail business licenses, but, charging additional 1,000's of dollars to a legal business in this state just because you can is wrong.

Good point TD
Payday lending has just as many of the economic, social, and criminal problems as illegal drugs, but it is mostly unregulated by the state.

Why don't we go after payday lenders to cough up some dough? If all businesses aren't created equal, then how can we expect there to be a fair business market in this state?

"Nice driveby spin" -- Libertad

"This site is filled simpletons..." -- JO

[ Parent ]
Good idea!
Here's a movement I can get behind - cracking down on payday lenders is a fabulous idea. Let's take down auto pawn while we're at it.  
[ Parent ]
Defective liberal trash
Yes we need to legalize drugs, but only because it's too expensive to provide all of you dopesmoking ex Obama volunteers room and board at County. Spliff up, hippies!!

The reality of Obama terrifies America
Take it from this "hippie"
I know far more Republicans who say they use marijuana that I do "liberals" who use it.
[ Parent ]
If that's true, it's simply a statistical anomaly.
I know tons (no really, tons) of people who smoke pot and I don't know 5 who call themselves Republicans or conservative.  I'm sure that's distorted based on the fact that I live in Boulder, but...I mean, come on.  Most pot smokers are young, and the others WERE young when they were working on George McGovern's reelection campaign.

Not that it matters.  I don't look down on people who smoke pot.  But unless you know of a study that backs you up, I have to believe it's a fallacy.

Health care "reform" will die in the Senate, and for their efforts, Democrats will be widely thrown out of office in 2010.  Don't say I didn't warn you.

[ Parent ]
Get a clue
You live in Boulder.  I live in Mesa County.
[ Parent ]
I realize. That's why I pointed it out, full disclosure.
Seriously though.  Show me a study that proves your point and I'll believe you.  So far we have your belief versus my belief.  Neither supported by anything other than intuition and personal experience.

Health care "reform" will die in the Senate, and for their efforts, Democrats will be widely thrown out of office in 2010.  Don't say I didn't warn you.
[ Parent ]
Did I claim otherwise?
You are not very quick on the uptake, are you?
Read below.
[ Parent ]
What you think you know about pot smokers is just not true...
According to the 2007 National Survey on Drug Use and Health, almost 6 percent of all adults between the ages of 50 and 59 reported smoking marijuana in the past year. That's up from about 3 percent five years earlier. Meanwhile, the number of recent users over the age of 50 has climbed to 2.65 million people nationwide (and we can assume the real prevalence is somewhat higher, since these figures are based on self-reported drug use). Here's something to think about: There are about as many boomers using cannabis today as there are high-school students doing the same.

I hate to be the person talking about my closeted friends, but I associate with a very large group of highly professional people all in their 40s and 50s that smoke.  I am talking lawyers, doctors, corporate professionals and college professors.  This is not uncommon.

Alcohol sales in the US $130 Billion
Pot sales in America $113 Billion.  
So almost as much as pot as alcohol is sold and consumed.  These aren't all college kids and high school cheerleaders spending $113 Billion.

[ Parent ]
More People Over 50 Are Smoking Pot Than Ever Before
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/...

Also, getting older means hangovers come on much more easily and it takes days to recover from a bottle of wine.  Pot no such issue.

[ Parent ]
Lowering costs
The debate on taxing dispensaries began due to need to raise state funds.  One of the biggest budget items is prisons.  Let's decriminalize a few drugs and see how much our prison bill drops.  We don't need to tax folks we just need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot. After all pot is just like alcohol except for the violence and the hangover.

Libertarian Paul
If you have a Vegetable Garden,
the food you grow is non taxable. so if you were to grow your own Marijuana it too should be without tax liability.
sales of marijuana yes but if it is for your own personal use it should not be taxed.

"Just dumbing it down for you zit-poppers." ~GOPwarrior
Roll It Up, Light It Up, Tax It Up | 74 comments
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